REVIVAL or JUDGMENT?
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Right. Nothing in Romans 1 is soteriological, it is only showing men are without excuse and know there is a Creator. But, the mysticism will pour in "God gives them a little light, and if they believe that light, then He gives them more light!" 
Pure. Eastern. Mysticism.
Pure. Eastern. Mysticism.
I am glad that you profess Christ as your Savior.
Please take a look back through this thread and contemplate everything any person says through Scripture and Christ's commands. There is sentimental attachment to Billy Graham and that causes bias (I too loved him when I was a kid but we are to test the spirits whether from God) yet, what he has taught in the given video is false teaching. Think it through - if what he is saying is true, then there is no need for the great commission, missionaries, preaching the Gospel - none of it.
There is not one single Scripture in all of the Bible that shows any person being saved outside of hearing the Gospel message and knowing they are saved through the Christ of that message.
Keep Cornelius in mind from Acts 10. Obviously he was regenerate prior to hearing of Christ, and, he also knew the Old Testament Scriptures. That his prayers and good works became pleasing to God meant that through the knowledge of the Scriptures God did a work in his heart to cause him to be pleasing to God; Acts 10:4. Note Romans 8:8 with this and consider something took place within Cornelius which must happen to all prior to salvation. God shows us this had to have taken place in Peters dream; Acts 10:10-15. God states He had made Cornelius clean, this is the point of that portion of the text. It is to show that God would also be saving Gentiles, and Cornelius was a biblical example of how God saves the "heathens." We must go by His mandate and this revelation as to how salvation occurs.
Now, the thing is, he was not converted until he heard the Gospel preached by Peter, then he was saved, converted, became a child of God; Acts 10:34ff.
Notice God purposefully did not leave Cornelius at a state of regeneration, and say he pleased God without showing all of us that he needed Christ, needed to hear the Gospel for conversion/salvation and this took place in the ending of Acts 10. There is thus no salvation outside of the person being regenerated by God, hearing the Gospel, and knowing the Christ of that Gospel. If Cornelius were left in his prior state, then we would have people claiming he was mystically saved, but, thanks to God that is not the case - it is only through the knowledge of; 1) Regeneration 2) The Gospel; 3) Saving knowledge of Christ.
It's OK my friend, all is forgiven and forgotten, and I have been combative back in defending the Gospel.
Please accept my apologies where I offended you in so doing.
Now, I would much rather then have dialog, and defend the faith against any false notions, no matter from whom we need to defend it. We cannot allow mysticism to dictate to us salvation, but rather properly allow the Word to show this to us, how salvation is achieved, and that it is not done in a vacuum, but through operation of the Triune God and according to His Word. Seek others whom God sent to teach these truths, that stick to the Scriptures and do not deviate. Carefully consider my friend.
God bless.
Please take a look back through this thread and contemplate everything any person says through Scripture and Christ's commands. There is sentimental attachment to Billy Graham and that causes bias (I too loved him when I was a kid but we are to test the spirits whether from God) yet, what he has taught in the given video is false teaching. Think it through - if what he is saying is true, then there is no need for the great commission, missionaries, preaching the Gospel - none of it.
There is not one single Scripture in all of the Bible that shows any person being saved outside of hearing the Gospel message and knowing they are saved through the Christ of that message.
Keep Cornelius in mind from Acts 10. Obviously he was regenerate prior to hearing of Christ, and, he also knew the Old Testament Scriptures. That his prayers and good works became pleasing to God meant that through the knowledge of the Scriptures God did a work in his heart to cause him to be pleasing to God; Acts 10:4. Note Romans 8:8 with this and consider something took place within Cornelius which must happen to all prior to salvation. God shows us this had to have taken place in Peters dream; Acts 10:10-15. God states He had made Cornelius clean, this is the point of that portion of the text. It is to show that God would also be saving Gentiles, and Cornelius was a biblical example of how God saves the "heathens." We must go by His mandate and this revelation as to how salvation occurs.
Now, the thing is, he was not converted until he heard the Gospel preached by Peter, then he was saved, converted, became a child of God; Acts 10:34ff.
Notice God purposefully did not leave Cornelius at a state of regeneration, and say he pleased God without showing all of us that he needed Christ, needed to hear the Gospel for conversion/salvation and this took place in the ending of Acts 10. There is thus no salvation outside of the person being regenerated by God, hearing the Gospel, and knowing the Christ of that Gospel. If Cornelius were left in his prior state, then we would have people claiming he was mystically saved, but, thanks to God that is not the case - it is only through the knowledge of; 1) Regeneration 2) The Gospel; 3) Saving knowledge of Christ.
It's OK my friend, all is forgiven and forgotten, and I have been combative back in defending the Gospel.
Please accept my apologies where I offended you in so doing.
Now, I would much rather then have dialog, and defend the faith against any false notions, no matter from whom we need to defend it. We cannot allow mysticism to dictate to us salvation, but rather properly allow the Word to show this to us, how salvation is achieved, and that it is not done in a vacuum, but through operation of the Triune God and according to His Word. Seek others whom God sent to teach these truths, that stick to the Scriptures and do not deviate. Carefully consider my friend.
God bless.
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Right. Nothing in Romans 1 is soteriological, it is only showing men are without excuse and know there is a Creator. But, the mysticism will pour in "God gives them a little light, and if they believe that light, then He gives them more light!"
Pure. Eastern. Mysticism.
Pure. Eastern. Mysticism.
S
I think we as Christians may confuse what you have pointed out here
we understand God has created, unbelievers make their own gods which is what people do without revelation and the merciful conviction of the Spirit of God
they know there is 'something' out there but without the Holy Spirit, it is not revelation
It is not slander or malice to disagree on subjects......what would be slander is when someone says things that you did not say. They then consistently twist it to say something else in a deceitful way then what is originally said. Which you have not done...BTW.
The context I said Hebrews was written to Jews was in relation to the fact that the author was speaking to people that knew the law of Moses - hence Jewish people.
Gentiles did not know the law of Moses. I was saying that we don't need to be preaching the law of Moses to Gentiles "in order" to then give them the gospel. Just like Peter did in Acts 10 when he spoke to Cornelius.
Also I believe that the book of Hebrews was speaking to both Jewish believers as well as Jewish unbelievers that had heard about Christ but were going to rely on the law of Moses system - like the temple sacrifices for sins. This book would have been read in any assembly of Jewish people at the time in which there would have been believers in the Messiah and those sitting on the fence about Him. Jesus said there would be tares in with the wheat.
The book was written before the 70AD temple destruction that Jesus foretold in matt. 24.
I personally believe that audience relevance is paramount in determining the interpretation of any passage in scripture.
But if people want to believe something else - that is their right to do so.....I just give my opinion and let it lie in the hands of the Lord...
...what would be slander is when someone says things that you did not say. They then consistently twist it to say something else in a deceitful way then what is originally said. Which you have not done...BTW.The context I said Hebrews was written to Jews was in relation to the fact that the author was speaking to people that knew the law of Moses - hence Jewish people.
Gentiles did not know the law of Moses. I was saying that we don't need to be preaching the law of Moses to Gentiles "in order" to then give them the gospel. Just like Peter did in Acts 10 when he spoke to Cornelius.
Also I believe that the book of Hebrews was speaking to both Jewish believers as well as Jewish unbelievers that had heard about Christ but were going to rely on the law of Moses system - like the temple sacrifices for sins. This book would have been read in any assembly of Jewish people at the time in which there would have been believers in the Messiah and those sitting on the fence about Him. Jesus said there would be tares in with the wheat.
The book was written before the 70AD temple destruction that Jesus foretold in matt. 24.
I personally believe that audience relevance is paramount in determining the interpretation of any passage in scripture.
But if people want to believe something else - that is their right to do so.....I just give my opinion and let it lie in the hands of the Lord...
Yes, they are without excuse. As Paul continues his argument in Romans he states the whole world is lost. Therefore, man is without excuse, and, he is lost.
The passage doesn't speak of salvation, it is giving us principles of judgment in Romans 1 and Romans 2 and Romans 3. The salvation through Christ piece comes later in the epistle, and it isn't mentioned in Romans 1.
Now, if that were the case, that men were saved via Romans 1 natural revelation, there would be no need for the Gospel, no need for Christ to die, no need for church preaching the great commission. You really need to think these things through instead of using proof text theology that is out of context and misapplied. This is why not many should be teachers; James 3:1 with all due respect your teaching is utterly erroneous. Please consider 2 Timothy 2:15, you rush to conclusions.
By the time I posted my response concerning Cornelius to show you how it works, you answered before you even had any time to consider it or read it. Again, with all due respect, that was disrespectful sir, and tells me you don't mind wasting my time, the time of others offering good Biblical responses, and frankly you won't consider sound doctrine presented you.
The passage doesn't speak of salvation, it is giving us principles of judgment in Romans 1 and Romans 2 and Romans 3. The salvation through Christ piece comes later in the epistle, and it isn't mentioned in Romans 1.
Now, if that were the case, that men were saved via Romans 1 natural revelation, there would be no need for the Gospel, no need for Christ to die, no need for church preaching the great commission. You really need to think these things through instead of using proof text theology that is out of context and misapplied. This is why not many should be teachers; James 3:1 with all due respect your teaching is utterly erroneous. Please consider 2 Timothy 2:15, you rush to conclusions.
By the time I posted my response concerning Cornelius to show you how it works, you answered before you even had any time to consider it or read it. Again, with all due respect, that was disrespectful sir, and tells me you don't mind wasting my time, the time of others offering good Biblical responses, and frankly you won't consider sound doctrine presented you.
I agree that Roman's is a very misunderstood book.
It needs to be read and understood all the way from Chapter 1 through to chapter 16.
If Paul really was saying that what we often refer to as "natural revelation" was enough to bring us to salvation, what on earth is the rest of his treatise about?
At least part of the reason, if not the whole deal, that we do not correctly discern God through natural revelation is our sin nature - it really does obscure what otherwise should be obvious - just ask our atheistic friends who just cannot see and accept the obvious conclusions of current physics that there must be a theistic origin to the universe.
They prefer, against all scientific evidence, to believe that something came from nothing!
Without the Gospel there is no real chance of sinful individuals coming to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Specific revelation is undoubtably required.
To me anyway, Paul makes no bones about this in Romans, or his other epistles where he touches on this subject matter.
The Great Commission, as articulated in the Gospels and in Acts, also makes this plain.
And frankly, as far as I am concerned, the Great Commission is the enormous elephant in the room for most Christians and churches currently.
The mission of the church could be summed as, um, well...missions!
It needs to be read and understood all the way from Chapter 1 through to chapter 16.
If Paul really was saying that what we often refer to as "natural revelation" was enough to bring us to salvation, what on earth is the rest of his treatise about?
At least part of the reason, if not the whole deal, that we do not correctly discern God through natural revelation is our sin nature - it really does obscure what otherwise should be obvious - just ask our atheistic friends who just cannot see and accept the obvious conclusions of current physics that there must be a theistic origin to the universe.
They prefer, against all scientific evidence, to believe that something came from nothing!
Without the Gospel there is no real chance of sinful individuals coming to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Specific revelation is undoubtably required.
To me anyway, Paul makes no bones about this in Romans, or his other epistles where he touches on this subject matter.
The Great Commission, as articulated in the Gospels and in Acts, also makes this plain.
And frankly, as far as I am concerned, the Great Commission is the enormous elephant in the room for most Christians and churches currently.
The mission of the church could be summed as, um, well...missions!
S
God is longsuffering and not willing that any should perish
consider Abraham's conversation with God.. even 10 would have saved the city
that, is God. let us not confuse the mercy of God with the supposed appearance of the continuance of the apostasy of many churches and the lack of people being struck dead because they lie
the fact you would compare any nation to another nation, rather than to God's standards for the individual demonstrates the lack of responsibility many Americans seem to have and Canada is no better
take a look around
does the dispersal of thousands upon thousands of muslims mean nothing?
the 5th column is the dangerous one and the sword is hanging
don't mistake God's mercy for a lack of judgement.
I do not think everyone is looking to America for it to be judged. the entire world is in a state of judgement and people just don't see it
God allowing people to continue in their sin is a major judgement. see Romans 1
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S
Grace777x70;3107661It is not slander or malice to disagree on subjects......what would be slander is when someone says things that you did not say. They then consistently twist it to say something else in a deceitful way then what is originally said. Which you have not done...BTW.
I've seen that. I try to present my view without doing that and I know I have a strong personality. but I agree that twisting and lying is not right.
The context I said Hebrews was written to Jews was in relation to the fact that the author was speaking to people that knew the law of Moses - hence Jewish people.
well, it would behoove all of us to know the ot laws because it is a beautiful testimony to what we have been saved from
Gentiles did not know the law of Moses. I was saying that we don't need to be preaching the law of Moses to Gentiles "in order" to then give them the gospel. Just like Peter did in Acts 10 when he spoke to Cornelius.
well, I will agree the law is not the gospel, but the gospel is actually the fulfillment of the law
Also I believe that the book of Hebrews was speaking to both Jewish believers as well as Jewish unbelievers that had heard about Christ but were going to rely on the law of Moses system - like the temple sacrifices for sins. This book would have been read in any assembly of Jewish people at the time in which there would have been believers in the Messiah and those sitting on the fence about Him. Jesus said there would be tares in with the wheat.
well, everything I have read about Hebrews (one of my favorite books so...) indicates it was written to believers. Christians.
the author does not seem to be agreed upon, but the recipients of the letter does appear to be so
The book was written before the 70AD temple destruction that Jesus foretold in matt. 24.
I personally believe that audience relevance is paramount in determining the interpretation of any passage in scripture.
that is important but fortunately not the complete truth. consider, if that were so, then we all should just walk away cause none of us were alive when any of it was written. I'm not sure if you are new to that type of study (not at all a put down so please do not think it so) but I interpret scripture as a whole. scripture interprets itself.
But if people want to believe something else - that is their right to do so.....I just give my opinion and let it lie in the hands of the Lord...
well, I am not sure it is a want so much as it is that is where they happen to be in their journey across this planet
the most dangerous thing, IMO, is to refuse what may be a life changing eye opening truth that is refused because of trying to contextualize the meaning in order to fit in with what considers unchanging truth
paradoxical in some ways but God is in many ways and people are complicated
...what would be slander is when someone says things that you did not say. They then consistently twist it to say something else in a deceitful way then what is originally said. Which you have not done...BTW.I've seen that. I try to present my view without doing that and I know I have a strong personality. but I agree that twisting and lying is not right.
The context I said Hebrews was written to Jews was in relation to the fact that the author was speaking to people that knew the law of Moses - hence Jewish people.
well, it would behoove all of us to know the ot laws because it is a beautiful testimony to what we have been saved from
Gentiles did not know the law of Moses. I was saying that we don't need to be preaching the law of Moses to Gentiles "in order" to then give them the gospel. Just like Peter did in Acts 10 when he spoke to Cornelius.
well, I will agree the law is not the gospel, but the gospel is actually the fulfillment of the law
Also I believe that the book of Hebrews was speaking to both Jewish believers as well as Jewish unbelievers that had heard about Christ but were going to rely on the law of Moses system - like the temple sacrifices for sins. This book would have been read in any assembly of Jewish people at the time in which there would have been believers in the Messiah and those sitting on the fence about Him. Jesus said there would be tares in with the wheat.
well, everything I have read about Hebrews (one of my favorite books so...) indicates it was written to believers. Christians.
the author does not seem to be agreed upon, but the recipients of the letter does appear to be so
The book was written before the 70AD temple destruction that Jesus foretold in matt. 24.
I personally believe that audience relevance is paramount in determining the interpretation of any passage in scripture.
that is important but fortunately not the complete truth. consider, if that were so, then we all should just walk away cause none of us were alive when any of it was written. I'm not sure if you are new to that type of study (not at all a put down so please do not think it so) but I interpret scripture as a whole. scripture interprets itself.
But if people want to believe something else - that is their right to do so.....I just give my opinion and let it lie in the hands of the Lord...
well, I am not sure it is a want so much as it is that is where they happen to be in their journey across this planet
the most dangerous thing, IMO, is to refuse what may be a life changing eye opening truth that is refused because of trying to contextualize the meaning in order to fit in with what considers unchanging truth
paradoxical in some ways but God is in many ways and people are complicated
Brother, leading up to Romans 1:20, we have this...
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[Romans 1:16,17]
So, we see that in the gospel is...
1) the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes
2) what reveals the righteousness of God to the lost
Natural revelation brings neither of these.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.[Romans 1:18-20]
Here we see God's wrath upon the lost. Even we, when we were lost, were under His divine wrath. They see God via natural revelation, but this does not tell them about this God whom came as a man, lived a sinless life, died for sinners, rose on the third day according to the scriptures and is now sitting on the right hand of Majesty. Without this knowledge, none can be saved.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.[Romans 1:21-23]
We can see this all through the OT and Israel's enemies. They worshipped idols. Shoot, Israel was ensnared in this idol worship, too. But the true believers in Israel never worshipped idols. Ppl in foreign lands, never having been exposed to the gospel, will serve some 'god'. Look at Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, Hinduism, et al.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[Romans 1:16,17]
So, we see that in the gospel is...
1) the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes
2) what reveals the righteousness of God to the lost
Natural revelation brings neither of these.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.[Romans 1:18-20]
Here we see God's wrath upon the lost. Even we, when we were lost, were under His divine wrath. They see God via natural revelation, but this does not tell them about this God whom came as a man, lived a sinless life, died for sinners, rose on the third day according to the scriptures and is now sitting on the right hand of Majesty. Without this knowledge, none can be saved.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.[Romans 1:21-23]
We can see this all through the OT and Israel's enemies. They worshipped idols. Shoot, Israel was ensnared in this idol worship, too. But the true believers in Israel never worshipped idols. Ppl in foreign lands, never having been exposed to the gospel, will serve some 'god'. Look at Buddhism, Islam, Taoism, Hinduism, et al.
It is anti-biblical/unbiblical.
That's not what Mr. Graham advocated or what Mr. Schuller 'amened'. He said whether they know Him or not, even if they don't know the name of Jesus, they can turn to what light they have and be saved. That's heresy. That's another gospel, as per Galatians 1:6,7.
As we see...I'll use the NASB here...Romans 10:14-17
"How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?"
Those who remain in unbelief can not call upon Him, if they do not believe in Him.
"How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?"
How can you call upon Him for His mercy if you don't know He(Jesus here in its context) exists? The answer is they can't.
"And how will they hear without a preacher?"
Here is where I am saying many on here are espousing mysticism. Here shows that those who hear, those who know about the Christ, it comes by oral means, the proclamation of the gospel, via ppl.
[SUP]
[/SUP]"How will they preach unless they are sent?"
This shows us that true preachers are called of God. I am sure we are in agreement here.
"Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
This is showing us how wonderful the preaching of the gospel is, as these men have been entrusted with God's word to proclaim it to the lost.
"However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
Sadly, this shows the deadness of ppl's hearts w/o the efficacious work of grace being wrought in the hearts of the lost. Without God pouring grace into the losts' hearts, they will never believe and be saved.
"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."
Now, we are justified by faith, per Romans 5:1, Galatians 3:8, Romans 4:3. It says this faith comes by hearing the word of Christ. Again, this is via oral means, not by mysticism.
That's not what Mr. Graham advocated or what Mr. Schuller 'amened'. He said whether they know Him or not, even if they don't know the name of Jesus, they can turn to what light they have and be saved. That's heresy. That's another gospel, as per Galatians 1:6,7.
As we see...I'll use the NASB here...Romans 10:14-17
"How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?"
Those who remain in unbelief can not call upon Him, if they do not believe in Him.
"How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?"
How can you call upon Him for His mercy if you don't know He(Jesus here in its context) exists? The answer is they can't.
"And how will they hear without a preacher?"
Here is where I am saying many on here are espousing mysticism. Here shows that those who hear, those who know about the Christ, it comes by oral means, the proclamation of the gospel, via ppl.
[SUP]
[/SUP]"How will they preach unless they are sent?"
This shows us that true preachers are called of God. I am sure we are in agreement here.
"Just as it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
This is showing us how wonderful the preaching of the gospel is, as these men have been entrusted with God's word to proclaim it to the lost.
"However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
Sadly, this shows the deadness of ppl's hearts w/o the efficacious work of grace being wrought in the hearts of the lost. Without God pouring grace into the losts' hearts, they will never believe and be saved.
"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."
Now, we are justified by faith, per Romans 5:1, Galatians 3:8, Romans 4:3. It says this faith comes by hearing the word of Christ. Again, this is via oral means, not by mysticism.
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Now, I agree with this statement 100%.
Now, who are the ones who have the love of the Christ in their hearts?
"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God."[1 john 4:7]
Another word for 'born' is begotten. How are we begotten(born)?
"for you have been born again(begotten) not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God."[1 Peter 1:23]
So, those who love the Christ, have been born of Him. Those who have been born of Him have been born(begotten) by the word of God, not by mystical means that Mr. Graham proposed and Mr. Schuller 'amened'.
Now, who are the ones who have the love of the Christ in their hearts?
"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God."[1 john 4:7]
Another word for 'born' is begotten. How are we begotten(born)?
"for you have been born again(begotten) not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God."[1 Peter 1:23]
So, those who love the Christ, have been born of Him. Those who have been born of Him have been born(begotten) by the word of God, not by mystical means that Mr. Graham proposed and Mr. Schuller 'amened'.
Don't think we will have to stock pile supplies as God will take care of His own. Isaiah 33: 16He will dwell on the heights, His refuge will be the impregnable rock; His bread will be given him, His water will be sure.
Plus if God can use a bird to feed Elijah He can find a way to take care of us in our time of need.
Plus if God can use a bird to feed Elijah He can find a way to take care of us in our time of need.