Romans 7 man not saved.

[Grandpa]

And so, we are all clear now, about our spiritual lesson of faith and practice that our mind set and work out according to, the HOLY SPIRIT is just, in order to reap true life.

And there is also a similarity and revelation, between Romans chapter 8 and Galatians chapter 5;

1. For just one similarity, example - Romans 8;7,8, and Galatians 5;17

2. And for just one revelation, example - Romans 8;4-8, and Galatians 5;16-25

Thank you, dearly beloved crossnote and gotime for your sharing and agreement.

May the Good GOD, the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, bless you with HIS kindness and peace.

This contrast of Romans 7 and Romans 8 is all throughout the epistles

Galatians 3
[SUP]1[/SUP]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? [SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Are the ones mentioned in Galatians saved Christians or unsaved? Saved... Just backslidden into works of the law. Just like Romans 7. Like Paul himself. Like every Christian that has ever lived. Peter... really backslid almost all the way back into Judaism...


2 Corinthians 3

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.


Obviously Christians have a problem with going back to the law to attempt to obey it in their will and strength. Just like Israel kept wanting to go back to Egypt. Because it was what they knew. It was what their fathers knew. It was what their grand-fathers knew.

Who knows of the Liberty that is in Christ? Precious few. Who knows of this Grace through Faith and not of works? Precious few. Who have been able to continue this walk in Grace and Liberty without the "experts" in the "gospel" showing them they must walk according to the law or be condemned as sinners? Precious few.

 

[Atwood]

Rom 7 is a Saved Man; Flesh is Not the Body

Paul is simply speaking about the sin that dwells in the members of his body (v.5,23) and what can be done about it.

Brad, you probably know that some things in Paul are tough to understand, as Peter says. Now take another look at this, if you will. I am convinced that inserting the words "of the body" after members" is not correct.

7:5: For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought
in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.


7:23 Context:
"So now it is no more I that do it, but
sin which dwells in me. For I know that
in me, that is,
in my flesh, dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not. For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise. But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. . . .
7:23 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see a different law
in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is
in my members.

Observe that the word "body" does not occur. The text does not say "members of my body."

There is a parallel passage in Colossians 3:

Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry; for which things’ sake cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience: wherein ye also once walked, when ye lived in these things; but now do ye also put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, railing, shameful speaking out of your mouth: lie not one to another; seeing that ye have put off the old man with his doings, and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Compare Gal 5:


But I say, Walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like;

By comparing scripture with scripture, I am driven to the conclusion that the flesh, the Old Man, the members (upon the earth), and "the Body of Sin," all refer to the same thing, the Old Me, the Old Adamic Human Nature. Also, this is not the physical body. The sins of the flesh/members are not exclusively physical. The body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. the Spirit lives in the body. But in the flesh dwells Sin, which would be incompatible.


At any rate, check it out and see if you agree. Try to find any distinguishing characteristics betweeen the sinful me of Rom 7, the flesh, the Old Man, the members (on earth), and the "Body of Sin." (as Sin dwells in the flesh, the flesh gives Sin a "body" through which to operate).

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, that is the key verse to understanding the Carnal state of Rom 7. The question is, how did sin which was dormant come back to life? The answer is, when the commandment came, sin revived. The commandment in context is "thou shalt not lust/covet."

The Galatians answer is

I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. The old I is dormant, even if vociferating its opinions. He has put on Christ and made no provision for the flesh to satisfy its inevitable lusts.

And the life which I live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God Who loved me and died for me. That is living apart from the law.

I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness is by the Law, then Christ died in vain.

Back to Rom7

And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; and the commandment, which was unto life, this I found to be unto death: for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me.

Paul had been alive, but through the commandment sin slew him. This is an experience in the life of a believer. Sin doesn't slay an unregenerate person, for he is already dead spiritually.

There is no Commandment to come because Paul says in Romans 6 that He is not under the Law but under grace. You can't be alive before the Law. The only proper context is that Paul is talking about how sinned reigned between Adam to Moses in Romans 5. It's the only thing that makes sense. For Christians are not under the Law but under grace.

 

[Atwood]

Rom 7 can refer to any man that realizes the sin that dwells in him before or after he has been saved and made free through the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

Brad, I agreed with a number of things you said: very true that our Sin natures are not eradicated.

But I cannot agree with the claim that "Rom 7 can refer to any man . . . before of after . . . saved."

Rom 7 begins with overt references to the man who is saved. "my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ;"

The key verse is what I call the monkey-wrench verse, monkey wrench in the Christian life.

And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived [ lived again ], and I died. 7:9.

That verse can only refer to a saved man and the evident consequence is "I am carnal, sold under sin."

Only in a saved man can it be said:
1) I was alive apart from the law;
(unsaved are dead in sins; Pharisees are not apart from the law);
2) sin was dead or dormant -- sin is ever active in the unregenerate.
3) sin which was dead, lived again, revived.

The following context bears this out.
4) Paul delights in the Law.
5) Paul delights in it after the inner man, which contrasts with a sinful aspect of himself.
6) When the Rom 7 man sins, he denies that it is his true self sinning (not I, but indwelling sin).
7) the Rom 7 man has 2 egos, 2 me's, 2 I's. A good I and a bad I identified with his flesh. Such a state is untrue of the unregenerate man.

Even though this inner conflict does have some similarity to an unregenerate moralist failing to live up to his conscience, the description of the Rom 7 man, can only be that of a Christian man. This description is consistent with being "after the flesh" or "in accordance with the flesh" (carnal) as opposed to being "in the flesh.

At least try the above on for size.

BTW, because of the above, secular psychology does not understand the psychology of the Christian. I can imagine taking the MMPI (Minnesota Multiphastic Personality Inventory) twice, and answering differently depending on which I / me is meant.

 

[Atwood]

There is no Commandment to come because Paul says in Romans 6 that He is not under the Law but under grace. You can't be alive before the Law. The only proper context is that Paul is talking about how sinned reigned between Adam to Moses in Romans 5. It's the only thing that makes sense. For Christians are not under the Law but under grace.

Yes, the Christian is not under law, but grace; but is there a shortage of legalistic Christians? It certainly is possible for a Christian to adopt the law, typically some parts of it like Sabbath and/or tithing -- very common. The admonitions and warnings vs legalism are not for an imaginary problem.

The coming of the commandment is similar to the legalists coming to Galatia and trying to put them under the law. Even Peter was carried away by them temporarily. How many Christians may be sailing along, when a legalistic preacher puts them on a guilt trip over tithing, for example.

He was alive apart from the Law. There is no warrant to make Paul = the entire human race before the law; or do you have a verse to prove that one? Rom 7 says nothing about large eras in man's history, or do you have a proof text for that one? Rom 7 speaks of an internal struggle within one Christian; it is microscopic, not macroscopic.

Forcing Rom 7 into Rom 5 is a flight of imagination.

The people before the law were not "alive apart from the law." The imagination of their hearts was only to do evil continually, violence was in the earth. Things got so bad that the Lord practically destroyed the entire race with the flood. Mankind was steeped in idolatry; there was even child sacrifice. They were not alive apart from the law. Moreover, in Rom 7 it is not a "they" or mankind; it is Paul, a Christian speaking.

Only in a Christian is there is "life apart from the law." Only the Christian has two me's, one which does not sin, & the other in which sin dwells. It is nonsense to say that before the Law mankind in general when mankind sinned, could say, "It is no longer I who sin, but sin which dwells in my flesh."

There is no warrant to change the singular person Paul who has an internal struggle with sin to mankind before the law was given.

 

[Skinski7]

This contrast of Romans 7 and Romans 8 is all throughout the epistles

It is the Spirit of life found in Jesus Christ which is what sets people free from the law of sin and death. What do I mean? Well the law of sin and death is that if you sin you die. What do we die to? We die to God, for it cuts us off from an abiding relationship with God.

The wages of sin is death and this can be said to be a law. James speaks of how death is the result of yielding to temptation and sinning. Eve yielded to temptation and die. The law of sin and death is quite evident.

The Romans wretch is in trouble because he is in bondage to sin. Sin rules over the Romans wretch and thus the Romans wretch has not been set free from the law of sin and death. The Romans wretch keeps sinning unto death and thus remain in a perpetual state of being cut off from God. No forgiveness of sin is possible in this state because if forgiveness was granted the wretch would just bring themselves under condemnation again because they don't stop reoffending.

The solution to the dilemma of the Romans wretch is the crucifixion of the old man once and for all (as we see in Romans 6) and then being raised up to newness of life whereby one abides in the spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Therefore there is no condemnation to them who are in Jesus Christ, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. It is the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which sets one free from the law of sin and death.

The law could not effect this freedom because the law can only address outward conduct. It is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which addresses the inward man, the heart. Thus it is through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ which one is truly set free from sin because an internal change is manifested. Thus the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in us.

The error of the Galatians was that they had begin to take their focus off the inward transformation (which is resultant of grace, ie. the power of God) to that of external law keeping. Thus the Galatians were pushing outward regimentation over and above inward transformation.

The Romans 7 wretch is not a saved individual because salvation is not some abstract position which leaves someone in bondage to sin. Satanic doctrine teaches salvation IN sin as opposed to salvation FROM sin.

If Satan can convince people they are saved when they still are in bondage to sin then an authentic salvation experience is done away with. Sinners can then be coddled towards their doom with a false assurance that they are reconciled to God when they are not.


The definition of grace has commonly been perverted today. Today many view grace as solely a cloaking provision whereby a worker of iniquity can still sin and not surely die simply because they "believe in Jesus." It is a lie. A very tasty lie.

The truth is that grace abound when sin abounds because God has mercy and is not willing to carry out sentence immediately. God is long suffering while sin abounds. Yet that does not mean that we can keep on sinning so this long suffering of God can go on even longer. No! The rebellion and therefore the service of sin must cease.

The rebellion ceases through a genuine repentance experience where the mind changes and one then yields to God. It is through faithfully yielding to God (genuine faith) that one partakes in the grace of God (God's diving influence on the heart) and works together whereby a genuine and total inward transformation takes place. Initial salvation is the state after this transformation has taken place.

There is no possible way that a Romans wretch who is still in bondage to sin and therefore still serves sin is saved. What are they saved from? Certainly not sin and wretchedness.

 

[Skinski7]

Only in a Christian is there is "life apart from the law." Only the Christian has two me's, one which does not sin, & the other in which sin dwells. It is nonsense to say that before the Law mankind in general when mankind sinned, could say, "It is no longer I who sin, but sin which dwells in my flesh."

You have bought into gnostic dualism. There is only ONE you.

Ancient pagan philosophies taught the dualist notion of there being TWO you's. Thus they could separate "manifest vice" from "spiritual purity." The material world was often recognised as evil.

It was Augustine of Hippo, in the Fourth Century, who popularised such concepts into Christian theology.

Every human being has a heart which is the root of their spiritual condition. The heart is either pure or full of iniquity. Outward conduct flows from the heart.

The salvation of God involves the transformation of a heart from that of being full of iniquity to that of being full of genuine love. Genuine Christian's have had their hearts made pure and therefore are not Roman wretches continually doing evil.

Anyone who claims that the Romans wretch is a present Christian does not understand genuine salvation nor do they understand the Gospel. You cannot sin and not surely die.

 

[Skinski7]

When Paul is speaking of the wretch in Romans 7 he is illustrating how an individual under the law cannot escape the law of sin and death via the law itself.

The law was designed to bring conviction by making sin very plainly evident. Sin existed before the law because all men have been endowed with a conscience or one could say "the law written upon the heart, which accuses or excuses." Paul was alive once without the law because it is through "knowingly choosing evil" that the law of sin and death is activated. Sinning unto death requires human beings exercising their free agency to choose evil when they know they ought to do good.

Vice cannot exist apart from choice. Virtue cannot exist apart from choice. Forced charity is not charity at all and forced criminality is not criminality either. Thus it is a willful act of rebellion to God (violation of the knowledge to to what is right) that brings condemnation.

In Romans 7 where Paul speaks of how the law brought death he is speaking of how sinning (rebellion) brings death because it involves knowledge (knowledge wrought via the law). Thus Paul was once alive without the law but when the law came (knowledge came) sin was empowered to kill. The commandments which was ordained to show men how they should go (enacted to life) was found to be unto death because it brought with it "responsibility." God holds us accountable for our choices.

Romans 6, 7 and 8 all flow together. Romans 6 speaks about the methodical solution to the problem of sin addiction. Romans 7 speaks about the problem of sin addiction. Romans 8 speaks about how the solution actually works.

 

[Atwood]

Thus Paul was once alive without the law but when the law came (knowledge came) sin was empowered to kill. T

Skinski, you made a lot of unproven assertions in that long post. Do you have proof for it all, or were you just talking?
No one is alive apart from the law except a Christian; certainly the Pharisee Saui was not "alive a part from the law."

It is not "knowledge" that came, but the commandment. When the commandment came, sin revived and Paul died. To be sure the commandment brought knowledge of sin. Sin had formerly been alive and then died. Before the coming of the commandment in Rom 7, already in time past, sin had been alive & then died. For it says that sin lived AGAIN (revived).

Only a Christian has a history in which he used to have an existence in which sin was alive, then it became dead, but then again sin become living.

 

[Atwood]

You have bought into gnostic dualism.

That accusation is false. Let's see your proof or a retraction. Let's see you prove that there was a gnostic dualism in which one of the entities was not physical.

There is only ONE you.

Ancient pagan philosophies taught the dualist notion of there being TWO you's.

Lets see the proof of that one.

The material world was often recognised as evil.

Apparently you didn't read my posts. Perhaps you glanced & then went off on this unproven tangent.

At this point, I am not going to bother to post Rom 7. Anyone who wants to read it carefully can see that there are two I's, two me's in Rom 7. Or one can look at posts I already made on this. There is Old Man & New Man in the NT; one to put off & the other to put on. "It is not longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. And the life which I live . . . ."

 

[Jason0047]

Yes, the Christian is not under law, but grace; but is there a shortage of legalistic Christians? It certainly is possible for a Christian to adopt the law, typically some parts of it like Sabbath and/or tithing -- very common. The admonitions and warnings vs legalism are not for an imaginary problem.

The coming of the commandment is similar to the legalists coming to Galatia and trying to put them under the law. Even Peter was carried away by them temporarily. How many Christians may be sailing along, when a legalistic preacher puts them on a guilt trip over tithing, for example.

He was alive apart from the Law. There is no warrant to make Paul = the entire human race before the law; or do you have a verse to prove that one? Rom 7 says nothing about large eras in man's history, or do you have a proof text for that one? Rom 7 speaks of an internal struggle within one Christian; it is microscopic, not macroscopic.

Forcing Rom 7 into Rom 5 is a flight of imagination.

The people before the law were not "alive apart from the law." The imagination of their hearts was only to do evil continually, violence was in the earth. Things got so bad that the Lord practically destroyed the entire race with the flood. Mankind was steeped in idolatry; there was even child sacrifice. They were not alive apart from the law. Moreover, in Rom 7 it is not a "they" or mankind; it is Paul, a Christian speaking.

Only in a Christian is there is "life apart from the law." Only the Christian has two me's, one which does not sin, & the other in which sin dwells. It is nonsense to say that before the Law mankind in general when mankind sinned, could say, "It is no longer I who sin, but sin which dwells in my flesh."

There is no warrant to change the singular person Paul who has an internal struggle with sin to mankind before the law was given.

As I stated before, there was an oral Law before the written Law of Moses. So there was Law before the Commandment came. What Paul is telling his Jewish brothers (recounting his experience as a Jew before he was a Christian) is that he was once alive as a Jewish brother (thru history) before the commandment came and condemned him by saying, "Thou Shalt Not Kill." A person died by transgressing the Law. Before that time, men were condemned by the transgression of Adam. Paul speaks of his struggle to the Jews in trying to keep the Law of Moses and he tells them that such a thing is a futile type of a thing. Paul says the only answer to such a problem is Jesus Christ. Which is the climax of his argument in Romans 8.

 

[Atwood]

No forgiveness of sin is possible in this state because if forgiveness was granted the wretch would just bring themselves under condemnation again because they don't stop reoffending.

Now what is your proof of all that Skinski? Where does it say that the wretch doesn't get forgiveness? Actually Rom 8:1 tells us that Christians have no condemnation; even though it is true that Christians sin (in many things we all stumble). What you say is made up.

[quote\The solution to the dilemma of the Romans wretch is the crucifixion of the old man once and for all (as we see in Romans 6)[/quote]

We are already past Rom 6 in Rom 7, which is addressed to believers. Then Paul speaks of his saved state, alive apart from the law. Sin which previously had been alive, and then died, comes back to life again in Rom 7. The crucifixion is once for all, but crucifixion does not mean "non-existence." There is still an Old Man to put off as needed.

[quote then being raised up to newness of life whereby one abides in the spirit of life in Jesus Christ. [/quote] "I was once alive apart from the law!"

Therefore there is no condemnation to them who are in Jesus Christ,

The rest of the KJV verse that you quoted, is recognized as spurious.

The error of the Galatians was that they had begin to take their focus off the inward transformation (which is resultant of grace, ie. the power of God) to that of external law keeping. Thus the Galatians were pushing outward regimentation over and above inward transformation.

Actually the Galatian problem was not that they failed to focus on & contemplate their navals. Their problem was not lack of focus on their inward beings. The failure was not to walk by the Spirit of God, Who is someone other than self altogether.

The Romans 7 wretch is not a saved individual because salvation is not some abstract position which leaves someone in bondage to sin. Satanic doctrine teaches salvation IN sin as opposed to salvation FROM sin.

Freedom from sin is realized as the Christian abides in fellowship with Christ & walks by the Spirit. The Believer can be temporarily enslaved to sin -- he can present himself to the wrong master for a time. The proof has been posted that Rom 7 refers to believers. It is down thread if anyone cares to read it. What is satanic doctrine is reducing Christ from a Savior who saves His people from their sin to a chance-giver, leaving the salvation from sin to the individual's supposed "free will."

"not surely die simply because they "believe in Jesus." It is a lie. A very tasty lie."

What you posted is a lie, tempting people not to trust God's promises. It is hardly tasty to the self-righteous sinner who thinks he will be saved by his works.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Now Skinski, you did go on, claiming this & that without Bible proof. So we can disregard it.

The wretch in Rom 7 is saved:
Only in a Christian is it true that he was alive part from dead sin, which came back to life again at the coming of the commandment. Only the Christian has two me's, one that rejoices in God's laws, and one in which nothing good dwells, but sin. Only the Christian can deny that it is himself doing to the sin, but that it is sin in his lower self, the flesh, doing it.

Now anyone reading this who is not saved, will probably have a hard time understanding it. Address this first: If you are downgrading the Savior to "chance-giver," then repent of that and trust the Lord Jesus as genuine Savior.

 

[Atwood]

As I stated before, there was an oral Law before the written Law of Moses.

Let's see the proof of that one. Doesn't Romans 5 deny that claim?

So there was Law before the Commandment came.

The only Law that was before the Commandment came to Paul, was the Law of Moses, to which he died in Rom 7.

What Paul is telling his Jewish brothers (recounting his experience as a Jew before he was a Christian) is that he was once alive as a Jewish brother (thru history)

Jason, how are you going to have 2 contradictory interps going at the same time. You seem to say that Paul is recounting experience as a Pharisee, but then "through history." You really can't make the dual errors at the same time: (1) your far-fetched claim that Paul is recapitulating the history of the world using himself as the world, then (2) Paul is giving his life as a Pharisee.

In neither case was sin formerly alive, then died, then revived when the commandment came. Such fits neither the history of the world nor Paul as a Pharisee. As a Pharisee he was not alive apart from the law waiting for the coming of the commandment to die then.

Rom 7 perfectly fits the Christian life when the carnal state is entered. This war is internal in Paul, not external in world history -- microscopic, not macroscopic. Only in the Christian is there this kind of civil war between competing me's.

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski, you made a lot of unproven assertions in that long post. Do you have proof for it all, or were you just talking?

Atwood,

Everything I stated is backed by Scripture. It is also backed up by common sense.

You can label my words as unproven assumptions or throw your own rhetoric against it all you please. The bottom line though is that there is only one truth.

The truth is equal to reality or we could say that the truth is equivalent to how things actually are. We have the task to be honest and ascertain that truth no matter what it might be.

Opinions are not sacred, only the truth is sacred. So both my opinion and your opinion are inconsequential as far as the actual truth is concerned. The truth is not subject to human opinions, rather human opinions are subject to the truth and it is a wise endeavour for every human being to align their opinion with what they discover in a diligently search for the truth.

Jesus did state that He came indeed or in truth to set people free from sin. When Jesus made that statement He also said that those who commit sin are the servants of sin. Paul did state that we are slaves to whom we obey whether it be obedience unto righteousness or sin unto death.

With the above being factual does it make sense that the Romans wretch has been set free indeed? Has the Romans wretch been set free from his sin or does his sin still hold him in bondage?

Clearly the Romans wretch is still in bondage to his sin. I can relate to the Romans wretch because I was a wretch when I was addicted to pornography and masturbation. I knew it was wrong but the urge was very strong at times I would let that urge rule over me as I chose to gratify my fleshly desires. It was only when I realised that I was acting like a beast in giving into my passions and that in doing so I was pushing away God that I really began to see the light.

It was through a change of mind wrought via very strong conviction that I was worse than an animal because I understood right and wrong and I was allowing myself to be ruled by my passions. I came to realise that I was a very selfish human being who did not love my neighbour including my wife. I was choosing self gratification over the well being of others.

The horror of this understanding was clear and I stood naked before God. I realised I had a choice to make. I could either keep on down the road of ongoing sin and conviction or I could forsake the man I was. I chose to forsake the man I was, that evil man who served sin, I then died to self. In doing so I opened myself up to the power of God and it was through no longer resisting the Spirit of Truth that was was raised to newness of life. Being raised to a newness of life where I was no longer subject to my old self who selfishly served sin. I abhorred my old self and wanted nothing to do with it.

Jesus Christ really does save people from their sins. Jesus Christ does not save people from their sin and still leave them in a state of enslavement. That is nonsense. Jesus Christ effects such a drastic inward transformation that nothing is the same ever again. Now I can grow in the grace and knowledge of Him, learning more and more about life, about God, about people. I can then apply that knowledge to my life as God perfects me.

The walk of a Christian is anything but wretched. The "wretched man is a Christian" religion is a religion of defeat. It is a religion of vanity. It is a religion of deception.

Satan wants people to believe in "saved IN sins." Satan does not want people truly reconciled to God. He wants people to THINK and BELIEVE they are reconciled when they are not because then those people do not seek the real truth because they think they have already found it.

Satan is a deceiver. Satan is a master theologian. The "Christian is a Wretch" is doctrine straight from the pit for that is where such doctrine leads.

 

[Atwood]

ROMANS 7 MAN IS SAVED -- TYPO

In responding to Skinski below, I made a typo, inserting "not' where it should not be. I accidentally put: "The failure was not to walk . . . "

Skinski had claimed:

The error of the Galatians was that they had begin to take their focus off the inward transformation (which is resultant of grace, ie. the power of God) to that of external law keeping. Thus the Galatians were pushing outward regimentation over and above inward transformation.

Actually the Galatian problem was not that they failed to focus on & contemplate their navals. Their problem was not lack of focus on their inward beings. The failure was to walk by the Spirit of God, Who is someone other than self altogether.

 

[Skinski7]

Re: ROMANS 7 MAN IS SAVED -- TYPO

Atwood,

I would love to see you comment on heart purity and how it pertains, if at all, to the salvation experience.



With you believing that a Christian has two distinct natures and can engage in the service of either, it clearly paints a picture that a Christian can engage in all manner of sinful acts.

Your religion teaches that a Christian can struggle even with murdering people every now and then and yet all the while still be saved. I find it amazing how one can accept the logic of such a thing.

 

[Atwood]

Atwood,

Everything I stated is backed by Scripture. It is also backed up by common sense.

You did not prove your vociferations from Scripture or anything else. Skinski, in this most recent post you do a lot of just run on, saying things, exercising your right of free speech, but proving nothing from scripture. Why engage in futility? Doctrine is not from common sense; it is from God's word.

Jesus did state that He came indeed or in truth to set people free from sin.

God's word does not present the Lord Jesus as merely having a purpose to save and set free from sin. The Word says, "He shall save His people from their sins." No ifs, ands or buts. To reduce Him to a chance-giver is to deny that He is the Savior.

When Jesus made that statement He also said that those who commit sin are the servants of sin. Paul did state that we are slaves to whom we obey whether it be obedience unto righteousness or sin unto death.

So far, so good.

With the above being factual does it make sense that the Romans wretch has been set free indeed? Has the Romans wretch been set free from his sin or does his sin still hold him in bondage?

The Word guarantees ultimate salvation from sin. But in this life Christians sin. Or do you refuse to use the Lord's prayer as a model prayer? Forgive us our debts. A believer certainly can have temporary bondage to sin in a state of carnality. An example would be the fornicator in 1 Cor 5 who fornicated even with his father's wife. He was not lost for this. Paul said he should be delivered to satan for the destruction of the body that the spirit may be saved -- severe chastising which maintains salvation.

Clearly the Romans wretch is still in bondage to his sin. I can relate to the Romans wretch because I was a wretch when I was addicted to pornography.

Unfortunately in your testimony, you apparently failed to trust Christ as Savior -- at least you said nothing about that. And at the present you seem not to trust Him as Savior, but reduce him to chance giver.

Jesus Christ really does save people from their sins.

Then why don't you trust Him to do it, repenting of the chance-giver nonsense?

The walk of a Christian is anything but wretched.

Are you telling me that you don't sin, and that you are not wretched when sinning?

Satan wants people to believe in "saved IN sins."

What is your proof that his primary strategy is not that of the Pharisee vs the Publican? Salvation by works is satanic. And apparently you don't believe in salvation at all; just being given a chance.

How about recognizing that it is your theory which is satanism?

Anyone reading this who has relegated Christ to the position of chance-giver instead of Savior, is urged to repent, and actually trust Him with your eternal destiny as Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Skinski7]

Large font, repeated rhetoric and diversion?


Abiding in the Spirit of life of Jesus Christ is not failing to trust Christ. In fact abiding in His Spirit and walking in His ways is what genuine faith is all about. Faith is not a mental abstraction and salvation is not some abstract package. Faith and salvation are both manifest realities in a believers life.

I would still like your view on heart purity in the salvation experience.

Or is that a foreign subject to you?

 

[Atwood]

Re: ROMANS 7 MAN IS SAVED -- TYPO

Atwood,

I would love to see you comment on heart purity and how it pertains, if at all, to the salvation experience.

First note that Gal 5 states that the flesh lusts vs the Spirit; this constitutes temptation from the enemy inside. This is relentless and not stoppable, though it need not lead to the Christian actually lusting and sinning. Whatever heart-purity means, it doesn't stop this temptation.

We could do the concordance on heart & purity; but I post some of what comes to mind, but as it appears to me that you have never trusted Christ as Savior (think of him as chance-giver), I don't know that you will understand it:

Eph 3:

For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, that ye may be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inward man; that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; to the end that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be strong to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled unto all the fulness of God.

Christ dwells in the Christian's heart by faith, but this dwelling is not a given. Apparently the Ephesians needed this -- indeed about a generation later they had left their first love. Prior to his dwelling, you can picture Christ in the carnal Christian pushed to the periphery instead of being in the center, the heart. Prior to this faith, is the intercessory prayer of Paul followed by God granting it, and the Spirit strengthening the inner man of the Christian, evidently a weak inner man who must have Spirit help. This process causes the Christian to know the love of Christ and be filled to all the fullness of God.

With you believing that a Christian has two distinct natures and can engage in the service of either, it clearly paints a picture that a Christian can engage in all manner of sinful acts.

Indeed you are correct. One of those sinfulnesses is self-righteousness. Another is adultery with a friend's wife & murdering him, like King David. Chastisement is what can be expected for this.
We are able to temporarily go back to being a slave of sin. The alternative is to present self to God as alive from the dead & our members as instruments of righteousness.

Your religion teaches that a Christian can struggle even with murdering people every now and then and yet all the while still be saved. I find it amazing how one can accept the logic of such a thing.

I don't know what you mean by "Your religion." My convictions on this subject are the fruit of intense study of God's Word. Do you think that, for example, lying is not biggie, but murder is -- yet liars go to the Lake of Fire?

The logic is that Christ paid for our sins. He has promised to save us from our sins. He will do so. But for some reason he left us with our Old Natures, our Old Man, our Flesh; and with the fact that we are going to be sinning in this life. I shall find my self doing 1 John 1:9 as long as I live, confessing sins. I shall be praying in the model of the Lord's prayer, "Forgive us our debts," where I do not just recite, but plug in the sin "Forgive me for snapping at my wife in an unloving way," or whatever it is.

There is a limit on the sin a Christian can commit, however. He may have to have his body destroyed so that the Spirit is saved. If a man's life were characterized by murder, that would prove He had never trusted Christ as Savior.

The Lord Jesus has promised that He will perfect the good work He began in the Christian.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes, the Christian is not under law, but grace; but is there a shortage of legalistic Christians? It certainly is possible for a Christian to adopt the law, typically some parts of it like Sabbath and/or tithing -- very common. The admonitions and warnings vs legalism are not for an imaginary problem.

The coming of the commandment is similar to the legalists coming to Galatia and trying to put them under the law. Even Peter was carried away by them temporarily. How many Christians may be sailing along, when a legalistic preacher puts them on a guilt trip over tithing, for example.

He was alive apart from the Law. There is no warrant to make Paul = the entire human race before the law; or do you have a verse to prove that one? Rom 7 says nothing about large eras in man's history, or do you have a proof text for that one? Rom 7 speaks of an internal struggle within one Christian; it is microscopic, not macroscopic.

Forcing Rom 7 into Rom 5 is a flight of imagination.

The people before the law were not "alive apart from the law." The imagination of their hearts was only to do evil continually, violence was in the earth. Things got so bad that the Lord practically destroyed the entire race with the flood. Mankind was steeped in idolatry; there was even child sacrifice. They were not alive apart from the law. Moreover, in Rom 7 it is not a "they" or mankind; it is Paul, a Christian speaking.

Only in a Christian is there is "life apart from the law." Only the Christian has two me's, one which does not sin, & the other in which sin dwells. It is nonsense to say that before the Law mankind in general when mankind sinned, could say, "It is no longer I who sin, but sin which dwells in my flesh."

There is no warrant to change the singular person Paul who has an internal struggle with sin to mankind before the law was given.

No, they were alive before the Law because they were not immediately judged or killed the moment they broke the Law. For tbe Law was added because of transgressions. Meaning sin had gotten so bad that God needed to stop or minimize the sin in their lives with the written Law.