Sabbath

[LoveGodForever]

I read every post you reply to me. I repeat a lot in order to go "line upon line", one step at a time, trying to make sure we understand each other as we progress. this, hopefully, will keep the discussion on track and lead to an edifying conclusion! I study God's word intensely, and God frequently shows me amazing things!
May God bless you too!

Dan,
You say you read what I posted but it seems like you do not understand what was posted. After all my posts you say...

I think it would follow that the general catagory of users here on CC, such as myself, who claim to believe in Jesus and to be followers of Christ but don't remember the Sabbath Day (and granted we don't want to judge any particular person) are actually deceived and aren't born again after all.

You write this after I have posted that God has born again Christians in every Church who are living up to all the knowledge that God has given them (Acts 17:30-31).

Forgive me because I must admit I am confused where you are at because on one hand you write about yourself.........

And I think it would follow, then, that the general catagory of users here on CC, such as myself, who claim to believe in Jesus and to be followers of Christ but don't remember the Sabbath Day
(and granted we don't want to judge any particular person) are actually deceived and aren't born again after all.
now, would you say that remembering the Sabbath Day involves doing different actions on the other six days than on the Seventh Day?

Then you write this about yourself..................

a Natural Man is someone who isn't born again, isn't it? yes, I believe God's Word, I have been born again, I have received the Holy Spirit and by faith I love God and keep all of His commandments, including Exodus 20:8-11. at the same time, I don't take any special actions regarding days 1-6 or the 7th.
I fulfill the entire law, For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, even in this, Have love for your neighbour as for yourself.

Now the above two statements you have written about yourself contradict each other. So where do you stand?

 

[LoveGodForever]

right, two explanations, I just listed one.

so, of the many (most?) users here on CC who seem to have spent a long time studying God's word (and thus cannot use the "I didn't know" excuse), you would say that, as a class, they are unbelievers.

getting back to "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God".
The Spirit witnesses that to me, I think probably many (most?) users here on CC would say the same thing.

What does it mean to you that it is the Spirit that witness that to me? God only gives his Spirit to those that believe and obey him (Acts 5:32)

 

[beta]

I do change my ways in thought and deed
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

but talk more, please, about "they reject it (the Sabbath?) in their heart and are thus left in ignorance".
Is rejecting the Sabbath in one's heart an excuse? Thus, one could read God's word, not do special activities on the Sabbath, and still be a true Christian?

Dan...you are really difficult to understand... you say you are changing and have the Holy Spirit and are born again....yet seem NOT to do what God requires Eccl 12v13.
Of course you are not the only one...trad christianity as a whole are only following (trying to) the Com regarding neighbour and totally ignore the first 4. Can that be right when we KNOW that breaking one (of the ten) breakes them all ...and so make void any attempt at loving neighbour.
No one can expect to successfully love neighbour while ignoring/not remembering God and HIS Holy day, which are PART of the same law/Commandments.
You seem to be 'lumping all the days together and all we do together 'as the work of God'...making no difference between secular and sacred Lev 10v10.
How can you hope to become a new Creature/Creation in righteousness and holiness if you go on living as the 'old man who does not remember to please GOD ?
Our 'change must also involve action...doing things different from before....or we 'deceive ourselves as to who we truly are Jas 1v22....just reading and claiming it has no effect unless we also DO it. Looking at food will not nourish unless we also eat it ...same with God's Word !

 

[JohnTalmid]

The New Testament has ample evidence that the seventh day Sabbath is no longer a requirement.

• Rom. 14:5-6, "One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."

The entire section of Rom. 14:1-12 is worth careful study. Nevertheless, the instructions here are that individuals must be convinced in their own minds about which day they observe for the Lord. If the seventh day Sabbath were a requirement, then the choice would not be man's, but God’s.

• Col. 2:16-17, "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

Notice here that time sequence mentioned. A festival is yearly. A new moon is monthly. A Sabbath is weekly. No one is to judge in regard to this. The Sabbath is defined as a shadow, the reality is Jesus. Jesus is our Sabbath.

• Acts 20:7, "And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight."

The first day of the week is Sunday, and this is the day the people gathered. This passage can easily be seen as the church meeting on Sunday. It has two important church functions within it: breaking bread (communion) and a message (preaching). Additionally, Luke did not use the Jewish system of counting days: sundown to sundown. He used the Roman system: midnight to midnight. This is a subtle point that shows the Jewish Sabbath system was not the one utilized by Luke.

• 1 Cor. 16:1-2, "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come."

Notice here that Paul is directing the churches to meet on the first day of each week and put money aside. It would seem that this is tithing. So, the instructed time for the church to meet is Sunday. Is this an official worship day set up by the church? You decide.

• Rev. 1:10-11, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

The New Bible Dictionary says regarding the term, ‘The Lord’s Day’ in Revelation 1:10: "This is the first extant occurrence in Christian literature of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ, "ta kuriaka hamera". The adjectival construction suggests that it was a formal designation of the church’s worship day. As such it certainly appears early in the 2nd century (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, 1. 67).
In many churches today, the term "The Lord’s Day" is used to designate Sunday, the same as it was in the second century.
I hope this is evidence enough to show you that the Bible does not require that we worship on Saturday. If anything, we have the freedom (Rom. 14:1-12) to worship on the day that we believe we should. And, no one should judge us in regard to the day we keep. We are free in Christ, not under law (Rom. 6:14).

[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]​That is from CARM and is a great explanation of the way the new testament speaks of the sabbath.
[/FONT]

Where is it written that Sabbath was a shadow. If anything it is still a shadow. In reality the Sabbath day will be celebrated in the thousand year reign. This is written. Also whatever continues on in eternity shouldn't it be done now by the true believer in the Faith of Messiah? Yes Sabbath is important today and tomorrow and forever.

 

[JohnTalmid]

Okay what will the spirit reveal?
I know when my heart leads my body to obey the commandment written on my heart it was good and therefore not of me.

The spirit etched in my heart the desire to even obey the commandment.
It was not of me.

It was through Yahshua himself and His work to bring me close to the promise of the covenants with the Father in Heaven.
It was not of me.

All I can do is remember the Son of YHWH up on the cross and remember the commandment of YHWH Elohi. To see how the love for the Father in Heaven loves Him and would not let His body rot, or see decay. He is risen from the dead to bring all Mankind eternal life in the Kingdom of His Father who Love the Father with all their heart (who can know the heart of a man other than that spirit of Elohim) , mind (I believe that eludes to keeping the commandments ultimately), and strength (Messiah said resources).

You see wicked men have set snares of the adversary. They by their own way will fall.

Because how can they say that they love their neighbors if they ignore the weightier parts of the Faith. You know who you are because I knew it when I was there. The grace of Messiah Yahshua move you we pray to remember that day, your hearts where restored and you truly loved without restrictions your New Master Yahshua Messiah. He dispenses mercy on all who receive him and seek his Father's instructions by faith.

All I'm trying to say brothers and sisters. Is that mixing the word with tradition is wrong. It caused thousands of people to be swallowed up by the Grave, Earth, etc...
We are all aware of the judgment of Elohim now happening. We have all hard of the sign. Now that this has happened won't you put on the full armor of Elohim?

Shalom in Messiah Yahshua
John Talmid

 

[Dan_473]

The New Testament has ample evidence that the seventh day Sabbath is no longer a requirement.

• Rom. 14:5-6, "One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God."

The entire section of Rom. 14:1-12 is worth careful study. Nevertheless, the instructions here are that individuals must be convinced in their own minds about which day they observe for the Lord. If the seventh day Sabbath were a requirement, then the choice would not be man's, but God’s.

• Col. 2:16-17, "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ."

Notice here that time sequence mentioned. A festival is yearly. A new moon is monthly. A Sabbath is weekly. No one is to judge in regard to this. The Sabbath is defined as a shadow, the reality is Jesus. Jesus is our Sabbath.

• Acts 20:7, "And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight."

The first day of the week is Sunday, and this is the day the people gathered. This passage can easily be seen as the church meeting on Sunday. It has two important church functions within it: breaking bread (communion) and a message (preaching). Additionally, Luke did not use the Jewish system of counting days: sundown to sundown. He used the Roman system: midnight to midnight. This is a subtle point that shows the Jewish Sabbath system was not the one utilized by Luke.

• 1 Cor. 16:1-2, "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come."

Notice here that Paul is directing the churches to meet on the first day of each week and put money aside. It would seem that this is tithing. So, the instructed time for the church to meet is Sunday. Is this an official worship day set up by the church? You decide.

• Rev. 1:10-11, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

The New Bible Dictionary says regarding the term, ‘The Lord’s Day’ in Revelation 1:10: "This is the first extant occurrence in Christian literature of τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ, "ta kuriaka hamera". The adjectival construction suggests that it was a formal designation of the church’s worship day. As such it certainly appears early in the 2nd century (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, 1. 67).
In many churches today, the term "The Lord’s Day" is used to designate Sunday, the same as it was in the second century.
I hope this is evidence enough to show you that the Bible does not require that we worship on Saturday. If anything, we have the freedom (Rom. 14:1-12) to worship on the day that we believe we should. And, no one should judge us in regard to the day we keep. We are free in Christ, not under law (Rom. 6:14).

[FONT=lucida grande, tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif]​That is from CARM and is a great explanation of the way the new testament speaks of the sabbath.
[/FONT]

Interesting information, I researched more about Ignatius.

"...those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day..."

CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Magnesians (St. Ignatius)


I find this interesting because it is sometimes asserted that the early church, up until maybe Constantine or so, observed the Sabbath.


Ignatius "died at Rome between 98 and 117", so probably just a decade or two after the apostle John.

 

[Dan_473]

I don't know about 'dangerous, but certainly UNprofitable to keep all our activities 'seperate as if they have no bearing to each other.
What we learn on the Sabbath is to be 'practiced during the other 6 days thus contributing to our conversion....gradually changing us over time. Being instructed by GOD on the Sabbath is a bit like attending school/lessons that need to be remembered and absorbed during the rest of the week. now...if you are not spending time with your Teacher you are not going to learn much - stands to reason.
Does that make sense to you ?

yes, it makes sense.

at the same time, I think learning and growing would be a daily occurance
"Now these were more noble than the Jews of Thessalonica, for they gave serious attention to the word, searching in the holy Writings every day, to see if these things were so."

 

[Dan_473]

Dan,
You say you read what I posted but it seems like you do not understand what was posted. After all my posts you say...



You write this after I have posted that God has born again Christians in every Church who are living up to all the knowledge that God has given them (Acts 17:30-31).

Forgive me because I must admit I am confused where you are at because on one hand you write about yourself.........



Then you write this about yourself..................



Now the above two statements you have written about yourself contradict each other. So where do you stand?

I believe you have the wrong url for the second post of mine that you quote. I go through the thread one post at a time, so sometimes we will be responding to each other's posts at a different time.

when I wrote, "following that out," I meant "going with your assumptions" so that is why my posts may seem contradictory.




now, if we say that God has born again Christians in every Church who are living up to all the knowledge that God has given them, it's just that regarding the fourth commandment they just don't know any better,
I would say the commandment doesn't seem that difficult to understand or mysterious. It's pretty straightforward, isn't it?

 

[Dan_473]

What does it mean to you that it is the Spirit that witness that to me? God only gives his Spirit to those that believe and obey him (Acts 5:32)

The Spirit witnesses to me that I am a child of God. I think probably many (most?) users here on CC would say the same thing.

 

[Dan_473]

Dan...you are really difficult to understand... you say you are changing and have the Holy Spirit and are born again....yet seem NOT to do what God requires Eccl 12v13.
Of course you are not the only one...trad christianity as a whole are only following (trying to) the Com regarding neighbour and totally ignore the first 4. Can that be right when we KNOW that breaking one (of the ten) breakes them all ...and so make void any attempt at loving neighbour.
No one can expect to successfully love neighbour while ignoring/not remembering God and HIS Holy day, which are PART of the same law/Commandments.
You seem to be 'lumping all the days together and all we do together 'as the work of God'...making no difference between secular and sacred Lev 10v10.
How can you hope to become a new Creature/Creation in righteousness and holiness if you go on living as the 'old man who does not remember to please GOD ?
Our 'change must also involve action...doing things different from before....or we 'deceive ourselves as to who we truly are Jas 1v22....just reading and claiming it has no effect unless we also DO it. Looking at food will not nourish unless we also eat it ...same with God's Word !

I think we just have a different understanding of 'For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” ', that's probably why you find me hard to understand.

 

[Studyman]

many parts of the Levitical Priesthood are a shadow of His coming.

Jesus is a non-Levitical high priest, so perhaps that's why he had authority on earth to forgive sins without Levitical sacrifices.

"The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."

The point of the post was to that the New Covenant had nothing to do with the definition of sin. Only the way in which it was cleansed and administered.

 

[beta]

I think we just have a different understanding of 'For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” ', that's probably why you find me hard to understand.

Yes, it seems you are focused on that one scripture which actually has nothing to do with 'loving GOD before anyone else'.
Do you really think He is not concerned whether or not you love HIM...as long as you just love your neighbour. Friend, you can not successfully love your neighbour UNLESS you love God first, who gives you the ability to love correctly. We might have to leave it there Dan...for me GOD comes first !

 

[beta]

yes, it makes sense.

at the same time, I think learning and growing would be a daily occurance
"Now these were more noble than the Jews of Thessalonica, for they gave serious attention to the word, searching in the holy Writings every day, to see if these things were so."

Of course one can grow and learn all the time....does that mean nobody needs to go to school...that is how I see being instructed by God on the Sabbath. HE must have a similar idea to call us to assemble before Him to be instructed and refreshed. Why do you think JESUS taught on the Sabbath ?

 

[Amberlight]

Of course one can grow and learn all the time....does that mean nobody needs to go to school...that is how I see being instructed by God on the Sabbath. HE must have a similar idea to call us to assemble before Him to be instructed and refreshed. Why do you think JESUS taught on the Sabbath ?

Not again this is getting tiring.

Lets not constantly try to crawl back under the law of Moses.

 

[Hizikyah]

Mat 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might (Deuteronomy 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Malakyah 4:1-4, “For look, the day shall come, burning like a furnace, and all the proud, and every wrongdoer shall be stubble. And the day that shall come shall burn them up,” said יהוה of hosts, “which leaves to them neither root nor branch. But to you who fear My Name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings. And you shall go out and leap for joy like calves from the stall. And you shall trample the wrongdoers, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,” said יהוה of hosts. Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Ḥorĕḇ for all Yisra’yl – laws and right-rulings.”

Matthew 5:17-18, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one yod or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.”

Revelation 21:1-2, “And I saw a renewed heaven and a renewed earth, for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. And I, Yoḥanan, saw the set-apart city, renewed Yerushalayim, coming down out of the heaven from Yah, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”

 

[beta]

Not again this is getting tiring.

Lets not constantly try to crawl back under the law of Moses.

You OBVIOUSLY have not heard GOD give the 10 Commandments PERSONALLY to people....you must be one of those who refuse to hear Him...there always have been people who only want to hear Moses.

 

[Dan_473]

The point of the post was to that the New Covenant had nothing to do with the definition of sin. Only the way in which it was cleansed and administered.

that's cool,
I was just talking about how Jesus forgiving sins doesn't have to mean that he was doing away with the Levitical laws.

 

[Redeemed2015]

that's cool,
I was just talking about how Jesus forgiving sins doesn't have to mean that he was doing away with the Levitical laws.

Jesus(Yeshua) never declares any part of the law to be "done away with", "irrelevant" or "abolished".
In His words, "Sooner shall Heaven and Earth pass away than for one jot or tittle to ever pass away from the Law until all is accomplished."

 

[Dan_473]

Yes, it seems you are focused on that one scripture which actually has nothing to do with 'loving GOD before anyone else'.
Do you really think He is not concerned whether or not you love HIM...as long as you just love your neighbour. Friend, you can not successfully love your neighbour UNLESS you love God first, who gives you the ability to love correctly. We might have to leave it there Dan...for me GOD comes first !

of course God comes first.

but I can't find a place in the scriptures where it says that the Greatest Commandment fulfills the entire law.

some things that Paul wrote are hard to understand.
"And as he said in all his letters, which had to do with these things; in which are some hard sayings."


I agree, this isn't an easy one.
the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

how can that be?

 

[Dan_473]

Of course one can grow and learn all the time....does that mean nobody needs to go to school...that is how I see being instructed by God on the Sabbath. HE must have a similar idea to call us to assemble before Him to be instructed and refreshed. Why do you think JESUS taught on the Sabbath ?

Jesus taught on the Sabbath because that's when the Jewish people were likely to assemble in the synagogues.

Mark 14 "I was daily with you in the temple teaching"
Luke 19 "He was teaching daily in the temple"