Sabbath

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Dan_473

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Imputed righteousness as in the sense of Justification by Faith.
The thing I am speaking on would be more of a doctrinal dispute with this doctrine.

Righteousness was indeed credited to Abraham. However reason with all scriptures. Doesn't it also say of Abraham, "because Abraham listened to My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”Gen. 26:5
My mind races with scripture that confirms that testimony from the beginning of obedience.
The heart struggle against the perfect instruction is evident in a person who remains rebellious against Messiah if they fight against the simplest commandments like the Sabbath days. My charge is to by way of the Spirit of love seek out the sinner for Messiah's sake. He brought us all near the promise by the blood however where "justification by faith" doctrine would have you do nothing the "Word of Elohim" would have us do. This to me proves that "Calvinist" beliefs are at best doctrine of men, and worst doctrine of demons.
Sorry but Calvin aside for a moment. It is not by the works of the flesh one receives righteousness. It is through hearing the Word that one confessing their sin and returning to the instructions meant for edification of the assembly together as one new man that Messiah wants isn't it? We must submit to the Master of righteousness the Messiah our Father's way of Salvation. The Father's way is, has been, and always will be through living a godly life. He sanctified Israel through his Word. He provides the measure of Faith, the righteous way, and the redeemer himself Messiah to accomplish it in all who believe and walk according to His way.
Shalom in Messiah John Talmid
from the context of Genesis 26, we see that Abraham is not considered righteous because he did those things, but rather that Isaac will be blessed because Abraham did those things.

26 A severe famine now struck the land, as had happened before in Abraham’s time. So Isaac moved to Gerar, where Abimelech, king of the Philistines, lived.

2 The Lord appeared to Isaac and said, “Do not go down to Egypt, but do as I tell you.3 Live here as a foreigner in this land, and I will be with you and bless you. I hereby confirm that I will give all these lands to you and your descendants,[a] just as I solemnly promised Abraham, your father.4 I will cause your descendants to become as numerous as the stars of the sky, and I will give them all these lands. And through your descendants all the nations of the earth will be blessed. 5 I will do this because Abraham listened to me and obeyed all my requirements, commands, decrees, and instructions.” 6 So Isaac stayed in Gerar.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis26&version=NLT


don't let your mind race, we can take the scriptures one by one. I'm glad you have a lot of scriptures you want to talk about. what passage would you like to talk about next? I don't feel that you've dealt honestly with Romans chapter 4 yet.
If Abraham's good deeds had made him acceptable to God, he would have had something to boast about. But that was not God’s way.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+4&version=NLT
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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We no longer serve the Law of the letter through various dogma of me
Paul writes about "the letter" engraved on tablets of stone. self-evident what that is. why in the world would he call completely unscriptural, wholly human and entirely non-binding traditionns of men "the Law"?
 

posthuman

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So in your religion, if Abraham had done as Eve did, he would have been considered a thief, greedy, drunkard, slanderer, swindler, and He wouldn't have been blessed by God to inherit His Kingdom.
this is slander.

what does that mean, in light of the verse i quoted to you?
weren't you lauding self-reflection the other day?
is commandment #9 important?
 

Dan_473

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how much more clear does it need to be lol

some people like to pretend this book doesn't exist; seeing how many false doctrines are so readily destroyed by it one can see why.
I took some time this morning to read again carefully through Romans chapter 4 in Greek and in the King James.

I was stunned by how many times there are phrases that are Direct contradictions between what Romans says and what the folks who try to get right with God based on obeying the law say. that is to say as much as something moving from Greek to English can be a direct contradiction.

One thing I found really cool is that there is a single Greek root sometimes expressed as a noun or sometimes as a verb, which can properly be rendered variously as
Justified, just, righteousness, get right with God and other versions and tenses of those English words.

another Greek root can properly be rendered as reckoned, counted, credited, imputed and the like.

knowing that, the bottom line is that Abraham didn't get right with God by obeying the law.
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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keeping the Sabbath holy is not a work of the law done for the remission of sins, that's correct. it is, however, a work of the law. It would be one of the things that Paul refers to as the Deeds of the law in Romans chapter 3 the King James version.

the problem that I see with rendering Romans 3:28 the way you did is that it doesn't fit the context of verse 20 just a few verses earlier in the chapter.

20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3&version=NLT
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Can I be justified by God if I refuse to Love Him? Can I be justified by God if I create images of God in the likeness of man? Paul says no Dan.

Rom. 2:
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

But the "Deeds" of the Law that were given to Moses 430 years after Abraham, which were "works" specifically designated for the removal of sins, "till the Seed should come" does not justify after the Seed has come.

This was hard medicine for a religion which was centered on a Priesthood that was obsolete and replaced as the Law and Prophets promised.

But understanding this makes Paul's letters come alive.

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

How can I have the Spirit by rejecting God's instructions? But if I am a religion pushing "works of the Law" of a Priesthood that is obsolete, for the atonement of sins, this then agrees with the entire Bible. It explains why Abraham received the promise "apart" from these "Works of the Law, given to Levi who wasn't even born yet.

The preaching that the Jews were trying to get the Gentiles to follow the 10 commandments in Galatians is foolish in my view as we should all know what Jesus said about them and why they were rejected.


7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart (Mind) is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
 

Studyman

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yeah don't stop there. have a look at v. 20 for example.
you need to read the whole thing, not just ch. 2
Maybe you should set your bias aside and look at the post again. I quoted many verses, not just this one you have a problem with.

Verse 20 does in no way make any of Paul's words void.
 

Studyman

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I took some time this morning to read again carefully through Romans chapter 4 in Greek and in the King James.

I was stunned by how many times there are phrases that are Direct contradictions between what Romans says and what the folks who try to get right with God based on obeying the law say. that is to say as much as something moving from Greek to English can be a direct contradiction.

One thing I found really cool is that there is a single Greek root sometimes expressed as a noun or sometimes as a verb, which can properly be rendered variously as
Justified, just, righteousness, get right with God and other versions and tenses of those English words.

another Greek root can properly be rendered as reckoned, counted, credited, imputed and the like.

knowing that, the bottom line is that Abraham didn't get right with God by obeying the law.
Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

In your religion, if Abram had chosen to decide in his mind that this instruction from God was to burdensome, and refused to comply, would he still have been considered righteous? How is "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him" not obeying God?
 

Grandpa

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No
What school master have you known?
The law, the 10 commandments. See Matthew 5. After I found I could NOT do them I asked for help from the Lord Jesus Christ and received Rest.

By what works have I done that show you I love not by faith?
Not your works, your words.
Galatians 3:11-12
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

I know the law is good for correction, reproof, and instruction in righteousness. How has it come to you?
Galatians 2:19-21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

That way of Faith that discouraged obedience to the Father's instructions?
No. Just your carnal view of them.

Romans 3:20-22
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Its all there in the New Testament. But you have to come to Christ and receive Rest to begin to understand.

Basically you have to become a Christian first and then you will start to understand the scriptures.
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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Paul writes about "the letter" engraved on tablets of stone. self-evident what that is. why in the world would he call completely unscriptural, wholly human and entirely non-binding traditionns of men "the Law"?
Jesus said:

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments (Laws)of men.
 
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ROMANS 5:10.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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based on the context I think Romans 1:21 is talking about everyone, Jews and gentiles. if you really stretch the word Jew, you can say that Abraham was the first Jew. though, I think that would be a real stretch.
but Paul goes back to the creation of the world here. He's talking about people starting with Adam and all of Adam's descendants.
so I think it's talking about everyone, people in general.


God shows his anger from heaven. It is against all the godless and evil things people do. They are so evil that they say no to the truth. 19 The truth about God is plain to them. God has made it plain. 20 Ever since the world was created it has been possible to see the qualities of God that are not seen. I’m talking about his eternal power and about the fact that he is God. Those things can be seen in what he has made. So people have no excuse for what they do.

21 They knew God. But they didn’t honor him as God. They didn’t thank him. Their thinking became worthless. Their foolish hearts became dark.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans1&version=NIRV

now, since I think you're understanding of Romans 1: 21 is faulty, wouldn't it be much more efficient for us to resolve that issue before moving on to the rest of your post? since the rest of your post is built upon the foundation you lay at the beginning?
That is a great way to proceed.

Well that's an interesting thought. "People in general". I can't say that this might be a good way of looking at it. But shouldn't we also consider that Abel and Noah and Abraham, who are our examples of Faith, do not fit into this box.

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

This certainly does describe Cain and Ham, I agree with that.

But what is the Judgment of God? And how did people know those who commit such things are worthy of death?

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

How did God show them all these things which define unrighteousness unless He showed them His Laws which define righteousness?

"being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead

1 Cor. 1:
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Luke 11:
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

So Jesus, as the Word, set them "prophets"? Sent who Prophets? "People in general"? Or those who God showed His Judgment to that didn't glorify Him?

Abraham's parents would have known God, Yes? Why did Jesus, as the Word, command that He leave them?

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

How did this guy know all these many, many years after Adam that the ground was cursed?

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Jews, Hebrew, Israelite, they are all labels of the same thing. Those who God showed His definition of righteousness to. Committed the Oracles of God to, Paul is speaking of those who "Knew God", but glorified Him not as God. Cain fits this description, the first Pharisee.
 

posthuman

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Maybe you should set your bias aside and look at the post again. I quoted many verses, not just this one you have a problem with.

Verse 20 does in no way make any of Paul's words void.
neither does that the doers of the Law would be justified set aside that no one is justified by the doing of the Law. you often quote the one, as though justification is obtained through doing ((the deeds of)) the Law, without also recognising that no one is justified in this way.
what does scripture say? put away the slave woman, that you may become a son of the free. justification through the deeds of the Law ((far more than a sacrificial system)) is unattainable, that is Romans 1-4. all we like sheep are gone astray, no one does good and no one seeks Him. it's barking up the wrong tree: there is no salvation apart from mercy. that the doers of the law are those justified through it is the condemnation: no one does it.
i think it's important not to leave that out; that's all - because that's what points to Christ and His work.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
I took some time this morning to read again carefully through Romans chapter 4 in Greek and in the King James.

I was stunned by how many times there are phrases that are Direct contradictions between what Romans says and what the folks who try to get right with God based on obeying the law say. that is to say as much as something moving from Greek to English can be a direct contradiction.

One thing I found really cool is that there is a single Greek root sometimes expressed as a noun or sometimes as a verb, which can properly be rendered variously as
Justified, just, righteousness, get right with God and other versions and tenses of those English words.

another Greek root can properly be rendered as reckoned, counted, credited, imputed and the like.

knowing that, the bottom line is that Abraham didn't get right with God by obeying the law.

right

Abraham's righteousness was accounted to him because of his obedience to God which illustrated his FAITH in God

righteousness by faith! what do you know!...theme runs through the entire Bible


Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Genesis 15:6
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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neither does that the doers of the Law would be justified set aside that no one is justified by the doing of the Law. you often quote the one, as though justification is obtained through doing ((the deeds of)) the Law, without also recognising that no one is justified in this way.
what does scripture say? put away the slave woman, that you may become a son of the free. justification through the deeds of the Law ((far more than a sacrificial system)) is unattainable, that is Romans 1-4. all we like sheep are gone astray, no one does good and no one seeks Him. it's barking up the wrong tree: there is no salvation apart from mercy. that the doers of the law are those justified through it is the condemnation: no one does it.
i think it's important not to leave that out; that's all - because that's what points to Christ and His work.

In the examples which were written for our admonition God gives us what the deception will be, if we trust Him enough to believe it.

First, the serpent very cleverly uses God's Word's to trick Eve into listening to it.

Then it springs it's trap.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

First it convinces Eve that she is already saved.

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, (reject the instructions) then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Next it convinces her that God knows His instructions are against her. And that "truth" can only come by rejecting this God's unjust and burdensome instructions that are against her and to follow her own vision and truth or religious traditions.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

She not only believed a lie about God, but she furthered this same lie to others around her.

The arguments I have with you and others on this forum are classic examples of this deception.

As for the "Deeds of the Law", it's just Biblical truth.

Remembering the Sabbath to keep it Holy was not a duty or "Deed" of the Priesthood for the remission of sins.

In other Words, there isn't a command that says "if you sin, go and remember to keep God's Holy Sabbath Holy" , and your sins will be cleansed. or "if you sin, go and Steal no more" and your sins will be cleansed, or "if you sin, go and don't create an image of God in the likeness of man and your sins will be forgiven..

But there were Laws, "added" 430 years after Abraham obeyed, that said "If you sin, find a Levite Priest and give him the best of your goats, and he will kill it and sprinkle it's blood on the alter to cleanse your sins from you.

Since we know the Mainstream Preachers of his time were not following "Mercy, Judgment, or faith, but were following Tithing, Priesthood Duties and Circumcision. I make sense that Paul would say to them:

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And again.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by (the Law of) faith without the deeds of the law.(of works)
 

JohnTalmid

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Mar 17, 2017
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The law, the 10 commandments. See Matthew 5. After I found I could NOT do them I asked for help from the Lord Jesus Christ and received Rest.

Not your works, your words.
Galatians 3:11-12
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


Galatians 2:19-21
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

No. Just your carnal view of them.

Romans 3:20-22
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Its all there in the New Testament. But you have to come to Christ and receive Rest to begin to understand.

Basically you have to become a Christian first and then you will start to understand the scriptures.
First thing Grandpa I want to thank you for your consideration and time it took to respond.

You're making reference to "rest" in a couple of your responses. What is the "rest" of Messiah other than the Sabbath days?
Here is a scripture that proves that you can "do" the word or commandments of the Father.
"It is not in heaven, that you would need to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it for us and proclaim it, that we may obey it?”And it is not beyond the sea, that you would need to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it for us and proclaim it, that we may obey it?"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may obey it."" Due 30:12-14
Before it is said, "this is old testament" I don't know if you would however someone may.

"But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down)
or, ‘Who will descend into the Abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:
 

JohnTalmid

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Mar 17, 2017
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What word of faith is it they proclaim?
The same from "the beginning" (Genesis). Being faithful to the Father's instructions after being justified through faith is mentioned directly from the Messiah. "who are my Mother, brother, sisters... Those who DO the will of my Father"
My main problem is that mainstream Christianity has gotten fixated on secular days in place of the scriptures which point to the feast days of Messiah. A major point of contention between a person who guards Sabbath and a person who says Messiah is our rest.
Heb 4:1-10
Here we find that there is a Sabbath rest/observance in Messiah still.
We have never heard Messiah say I am the Sabbath. Also Messiah has never called himself the Sabbath. Yet because modern Christian Theology doesn't keep the Sabbath days of the Father they don't teach it. In stead they teach against keeping it and say Messiah is our rest. This is almost 100% truth however it isn't the full story. The Sabbath has always been a reference for the rest for our souls in Elohim. Messiah accomplished the way for is to be obedient and he made it available by way of Faith.
Don't be fooled to think that I preach obedience to get faith or obedience makes you righteous. I know we're thus all comes from and it is a free gift before I knew about Father's instructions. After knowing what a person is to "do" I returned to my Father's way and trust the Messiah's testimony.
Keep the feasts of Messiah and the Sabbath days also because you are redeemed not to be redeemed Grandpa.
Shalom John Talmid
 

Dan_473

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20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Can I be justified by God if I refuse to Love Him? Can I be justified by God if I create images of God in the likeness of man? Paul says no Dan.
I have no idea how you got that out of Romans 3:20.

now let's break down what you said. do you love God perfectly? The Commandment is to love God with all of your heart soul mind and strength. interestly, the Hebrew has three parts to that Commandment that Jesus put in four. I certainly can't keep that commandment and its absolute sense. in fact the commandant simply brings to mind how many ways I fail in loving God. Can I still be justified? Yes!

should we make images and bow down to them? No, not in order to get Justified, but because we are. I do know many people I struggle with making Idols out of their boyfriend or girlfriend, or spouse. this doesn't mean that they can't get right with God. It just means that they're not perfect yet.

Rom. 2:
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
yes Paul goes to Great Lengths to show how people generally don't keep God's laws. certainly no good reader could read the above and continue onto chapters 3 and 4 and think that Paul is endorsing justification by keeping Commandments in the law.

when Paul says that it's the doers of the law who will be justified, what he's basically saying is that no one gets justified by the law, cuz no one can actually do it, cuz when you read ahead you see that he says that no one actually does it.

But the "Deeds" of the Law that were given to Moses 430 years after Abraham, which were "works" specifically designated for the removal of sins, "till the Seed should come" does not justify after the Seed has come.
I disagree. the Deeds of the law are clearly actions performed because they are prescribed by Commandments in the law. sacrifices regarding sin offerings are certainly included, but the Deeds of the law refers to so much more.

I don't understand why you don't want to focus more on this particular issue. Unless we come to an agreement, it doesn't really seem efficient to continue swapping long posts.

This was hard medicine for a religion which was centered on a Priesthood that was obsolete and replaced as the Law and Prophets promised.

But understanding this makes Paul's letters come alive.
Paul's letter certainly come alive for me, and I have a different understanding of that idea than you do.

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

How can I have the Spirit by rejecting God's instructions?
again I have no idea how what you wrote relates to the verse. We received the Spirit by faith, right! We don't receive the spirit by following Commandments of the law, by doing Deeds of the law, which is performing actions prescribed by the law.

But if I am a religion pushing "works of the Law" of a Priesthood that is obsolete, for the atonement of sins, this then agrees with the entire Bible. It explains why Abraham received the promise "apart" from these "Works of the Law, given to Levi who wasn't even born yet.

The preaching that the Jews were trying to get the Gentiles to follow the 10 commandments in Galatians is foolish in my view as we should all know what Jesus said about them and why they were rejected.


7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart (Mind) is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
I think we should wait to talk about with the Pharisees believed until after we resolved the Deeds of the law issues.

let's take a close look at Romans chapter 3
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

whatever the law says. Does the law say more things than just sacrifices? Yes so we are talking here about more than just sacrifice is relating to sin.
the law says things that make everyone guilty before God. That's the idea.
then it's followed by a therefore.
therefore by The Works of the law no flesh is Justified in his sight. Let's put it all together.
remember that punctuation and verse changes are all put there by humans.
All the world may become guilty before God so that by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.

see? The Deeds of the law refers not just to sacrifices, But to whatever the law says.

then continue to chapter 4, remembering that the chapter divisions are a result of mainstream tradition. it's unfortunate that in the King James, the word they translate deeds in chapter 3 is translated Works in chapter 4, but it's the same word.

So Abraham wasn't justified by works. What is the example that Paul writes further down in the chapter of Abraham? he says that he was justified before circumcision. this indicates that circumcision is a work of the law.

So again the Deeds, works of the law refer to sacrifices and a whole lot more.
 

Dan_473

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Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

In your religion, if Abram had chosen to decide in his mind that this instruction from God was to burdensome, and refused to comply, would he still have been considered righteous? How is "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him" not obeying God?
now, a question first. do we agree that when it talks about Abraham believing, that it's not just a general thing. Like, it's not just saying Abraham believed that God existed or something like that. It's saying that Abraham believed in a specific thing that God had told him.

When there was no reason for hope, Abraham believed because he had hope. He became the father of many nations, exactly as God had promised. God said, “That is how many children you will have.” (Genesis 15:5) 19 Abraham did not become weak in his faith. He accepted the fact that he was past the time when he could have children. At that time Abraham was about 100 years old. He also realized that Sarah was too old to have children. 20 But Abraham kept believing in God’s promise. He became strong in his faith. He gave glory to God.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans4&version=NIRV

that's the specific thing that Abraham believed in. Now, if he hadn't obeyed the first commandment of God, would God have given him the specific promise to believe in? I don't know.

now, what is the specific thing we believe in? Not the same thing that Abraham did. We Believe that Jesus died for our sins and God made him alive again. that's what we believe, and if we do, then God says we are Justified, righteous, right with him.
 

Dan_473

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That is a great way to proceed.

Well that's an interesting thought. "People in general". I can't say that this might be a good way of looking at it. But shouldn't we also consider that Abel and Noah and Abraham, who are our examples of Faith, do not fit into this box.

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

This certainly does describe Cain and Ham, I agree with that.

But what is the Judgment of God? And how did people know those who commit such things are worthy of death?

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

How did God show them all these things which define unrighteousness unless He showed them His Laws which define righteousness?

"being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead

1 Cor. 1:
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Luke 11:
49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.

So Jesus, as the Word, set them "prophets"? Sent who Prophets? "People in general"? Or those who God showed His Judgment to that didn't glorify Him?

Abraham's parents would have known God, Yes? Why did Jesus, as the Word, command that He leave them?

25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

How did this guy know all these many, many years after Adam that the ground was cursed?

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Jews, Hebrew, Israelite, they are all labels of the same thing. Those who God showed His definition of righteousness to. Committed the Oracles of God to, Paul is speaking of those who "Knew God", but glorified Him not as God. Cain fits this description, the first Pharisee.
sure let's consider Abel and Noah and Abraham. we don't know much about Abel but we do have records of both Noah and Abraham sinning and falling short of the glory of God. The Judgment of God is that sin brings death. If you sin, you die.

I don't know how people knew this. but the Bible says they all did.

the people that have the law, the Israelites, also learn about God's ways from the law. But everyone has the revelation of God that he has presented in creation. that's what had just been talked about earlier in chapter one.

again I believe the rest of your post is based upon a misunderstanding of who Paul is talking about in Romans chapter 1. So it makes sense to resolve chapter 1 before we move on, in my opinion.
 

Dan_473

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if a person can allow themselves to let go of the King James long enough to read a modern, readable English translation, It all becomes so simple

What the law says, it says to those who are ruled by the law. Its purpose is to shut every mouth and make the whole world accountable to God. 20 So no one will be considered right with God by obeying the law. Instead, the law makes us more aware of our sin.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3&version=NIRV

and no that's not a new age translation. Spend Years Learning Greek, take the original Greek of Romans and put it into modern everyday English, and that's what it says!