Sabbath

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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You keep saying this and I have said to you everytime, Yahshua is High Priest now
yeah that's why i keep saying it.
what you keep replying is exactly the thing that presents a problem.

the Law ((the jots and tittles of it)) make the Levites priest. not Judah. not Melchizedek.
change in priesthood = change in yodh.
either this is not the same Law, not the same covenant, or jots and tittles are removed.


it seems to me there's something you need to work out between '
not one jot or tittle removed' and the change in the priesthood. so i keep bringing it up, and i'm not sure if you're understanding why i do -- your replies ((and i've been very busy for months, not able to stay very involved on CC, so i've likely missed some of them)) don't seem to me to be addressing the point i'm raising, rather, they are reinforcing it.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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yeah that's why i keep saying it.
what you keep replying is exactly the thing that presents a problem.


the Law ((the jots and tittles of it)) make the Levites priest. not Judah. not Melchizedek.
change in priesthood = change in yodh.
either this is not the same Law, not the same covenant, or jots and tittles are removed.


it seems to me there's something you need to work out between 'not one jot or tittle removed' and the change in the priesthood. so i keep bringing it up, and i'm not sure if you're understanding why i do -- your replies ((and i've been very busy for months, not able to stay very involved on CC, so i've likely missed some of them)) don't seem to me to be addressing the point i'm raising, rather, they are reinforcing it.
Did you read the part of my post you cut out?

Tell me this:

What does Yahshua do as High Priest?

Are there any Laws that maybe were transferred from the MalakZidiq priesthood to the Levites and back to the MalakZadiq priesthood? Because in the 1,000 yr reign seems going up to Yerusalem for the Feasts matters*...

Psalm 110:4, “יהוה has sworn and does not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Malkitseḏeq.”

Hebrews 4:14-15, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest Who has ascended into the heavens: Yahshua the Son of יהוה, let us hold fast our profession. For we do not have a High Priest Who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all ways tempted as we are, yet was without sin."

and Hebrews 7 talks about the abolishment of the LEvitical and the transfer of the Law to Yahshua, I am confident that Yahshua can caryy out all His duties as High Priest, eternally...

Hebrews 7:24-25,"but He, because He remains forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save completely those who draw near to יהוה through Him, ever living to make intercession for them."





*
Isayah 66:21-24, “And from them too I shall take for priests – for Lĕwites,” declares יהוה. For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand. And it shall be that from New moon to New moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה. And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire not be quenched. And they shall be repulsive to all flesh!”





Zecharyah 14:8-21, And in that day it shall be that living waters flow from Yerushalayim, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea, in summer as well as in winter. 9, And יהוה shall be Sovereign over all the earth In that day there shall be one יהוה, and His Name one. 10, All the land shall be changed into a desert plain from Geḇa to Rimmon south of Yerushalayim, and she shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Binyamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Ḥanan’ĕl to the winepresses of the sovereign. 11, And they shall dwell in her, and there shall be no more utter destruction, but Yerushalayim shall be safely inhabited. 12, And this is the plague with which יהוה plagues all the people who fought against Yerushalayim: their flesh shall decay while they stand on their feet, and their eyes decay in their sockets, and their tongues decay in their mouths. 13, And it shall be in that day that a great confusion from יהוה is among them, and everyone of them shall seize the hand of his neighbor, and his hand rise up against his neighbor's hand. 14, And Yehuḏah shall fight at Yerushalayim as well. And the wealth of all the nations round about shall be gathered together: gold, and silver, and garments in great quantities. 15, So also is the plague on the horse and the mule, on the camel and the donkey, and on all the cattle that are in those camps – as this plague.


16, And it shall be that all who are left from all the nations which came up against Yerushalayim, shall go up from year to year to bow themselves to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. 17, And it shall be, that if anyone of the clans of the earth does not come up to Yerushalayim to bow himself to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, on them there is to be no rain. 18, And if the clan of Mitsrayim does not come up and enter in, then there is no rain. On them is the plague with which יהוה plagues the nations who do not come up to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. 19, This is the punishment of Mitsrayim and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. 20, In that day “SET-APART TO יהוה" shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. And the pots in the House of יהוה shall be like the bowls before the sacrifice-place. 21, And every pot in Yerushalayim and Yehuḏah shall be set-apart to יהוה of hosts. And all those who sacrifice shall come and take them and cook in them. And there shall no longer be a merchant in the House of יהוה of hosts, in that day.”
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,976
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here's another thing in the same vein that i've been trying to bring into these discussions for a long time:

physical circumcision. it is commanded in the Law. it is very clear and indisputable that the commandment is physical, fleshly, earthly circumcision.
this is also very clearly not physically demanded of those who believe and enter into the covenant of Christ's blood.

the reply "
well it's also written in the Law circumcise your hearts" is moot and does not in any way address the issue these facts raise. it completely ignores this: the Law clearly commands physical circumcision of the flesh. that's the point.

the commandment of physical circumcision is made up of jots and tittles.

the reply "
well the parts of the Law concerning blood atonement are changed but everything else remains incumbent on every believer" is also moot ((and also unsupportable, but as far as it touches on physical circumcision it doesn't even need to be refuted)). circumcision is not a priestly ordinance and is not concerning atonement for sin.

some extraordinary, amazing truth is at play here, because Christ's statements that '
not one yodh' is removed until all is fulfilled, and that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single yodh to pass, are both absolutely true, but it is also absolutely true that (1) the commandment to be physically circumcised is made of of these very yodhs and is within this very Law, and (2) it is not physically demanded of those who are counted as believers.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,976
10,805
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Did you read the part of my post you cut out?

Tell me this:

What does Yahshua do as High Priest?

Are there any Laws that maybe were transferred from the MalakZidiq priesthood to the Levites and back to the MalakZadiq priesthood? Because in the 1,000 yr reign seems going up to Yerusalem for the Feasts matters*...

Psalm 110:4, “יהוה has sworn and does not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Malkitseḏeq.”

Hebrews 4:14-15, "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest Who has ascended into the heavens: Yahshua the Son of יהוה, let us hold fast our profession. For we do not have a High Priest Who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all ways tempted as we are, yet was without sin."

and Hebrews 7 talks about the abolishment of the LEvitical and the transfer of the Law to Yahshua, I am confident that Yahshua can caryy out all His duties as High Priest, eternally...

Hebrews 7:24-25,"but He, because He remains forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save completely those who draw near to יהוה through Him, ever living to make intercession for them."





*
Isayah 66:21-24, “And from them too I shall take for priests – for Lĕwites,” declares יהוה. For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand. And it shall be that from New moon to New moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה. And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire not be quenched. And they shall be repulsive to all flesh!”





Zecharyah 14:8-21, And in that day it shall be that living waters flow from Yerushalayim, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea, in summer as well as in winter. 9, And יהוה shall be Sovereign over all the earth In that day there shall be one יהוה, and His Name one. 10, All the land shall be changed into a desert plain from Geḇa to Rimmon south of Yerushalayim, and she shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Binyamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Ḥanan’ĕl to the winepresses of the sovereign. 11, And they shall dwell in her, and there shall be no more utter destruction, but Yerushalayim shall be safely inhabited. 12, And this is the plague with which יהוה plagues all the people who fought against Yerushalayim: their flesh shall decay while they stand on their feet, and their eyes decay in their sockets, and their tongues decay in their mouths. 13, And it shall be in that day that a great confusion from יהוה is among them, and everyone of them shall seize the hand of his neighbor, and his hand rise up against his neighbor's hand. 14, And Yehuḏah shall fight at Yerushalayim as well. And the wealth of all the nations round about shall be gathered together: gold, and silver, and garments in great quantities. 15, So also is the plague on the horse and the mule, on the camel and the donkey, and on all the cattle that are in those camps – as this plague.


16, And it shall be that all who are left from all the nations which came up against Yerushalayim, shall go up from year to year to bow themselves to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, and to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. 17, And it shall be, that if anyone of the clans of the earth does not come up to Yerushalayim to bow himself to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, on them there is to be no rain. 18, And if the clan of Mitsrayim does not come up and enter in, then there is no rain. On them is the plague with which יהוה plagues the nations who do not come up to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. 19, This is the punishment of Mitsrayim and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to celebrate the Festival of Sukkot. 20, In that day “SET-APART TO יהוה" shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. And the pots in the House of יהוה shall be like the bowls before the sacrifice-place. 21, And every pot in Yerushalayim and Yehuḏah shall be set-apart to יהוה of hosts. And all those who sacrifice shall come and take them and cook in them. And there shall no longer be a merchant in the House of יהוה of hosts, in that day.”
you're still either side-stepping or you don't understand what i'm pointing out.

the Law makes Levi priest, even high priest. by way of jots and tittles. by written commandment. by perpetual statute. by eternal covenant of salt.
the fact that the Messiah is high priest forever is exactly the issue; if those found in Christ are under the Law then they are under the priesthood of Aaron, because that's who the jots and tittles of the Law make priest.


 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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the greater point is this:

arguing that the things in the Law should be done because '
not one jot or tittle is removed' is incompatible with failing also to argue that the sacrifice of bulls and goats and doves must continue. it is incompatible with failing also to argue that a descendant of Aaron is high priest and that the physical ordinances of the physical temple must be kept. these things are also jots and tittles; to argue that ((in context of this thread)) sabbath must be observed because 'jots and tittles' and also argue that the blood of bulls is not any longer required for remittance of sin is hypocritical. it is hypocritical because 'jots and tittles' -- 'jots and tittles,' in the context of this thread, is a self-defeating argument.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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being oft slandered, i feel like i need to point out again, i am not arguing against honoring the sabbath. i am exposing holes in logic and i am upholding the fact that the scripture clearly teaches us not to allow anyone to judge us over sabbaths, and that sabbaths are mere shadows of the reality found in Jesus of Nazareth.
i am arguing against bad argumentation and arguing against judging any believer over observation of sabbath, because bad argumentation to me has equivalence to lying, and because i believe Colossians ch. 2 is unmitigatedly clear on this point.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
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here's another thing in the same vein that i've been trying to bring into these discussions for a long time:

physical circumcision. it is commanded in the Law. it is very clear and indisputable that the commandment is physical, fleshly, earthly circumcision.
this is also very clearly not physically demanded of those who believe and enter into the covenant of Christ's blood.


the reply "well it's also written in the Law circumcise your hearts" is moot and does not in any way address the issue these facts raise. it completely ignores this: the Law clearly commands physical circumcision of the flesh. that's the point.

the commandment of physical circumcision is made up of jots and tittles.


I just want to state something on this topic because this is an important thing IMO:

Yes physical circumcisiom is carried out in a physical way, but so is loving you father and mother ot not murdering. Also in the "OT" circumcision was SUPPOSED to represent something deeper than a cut in the flesh:

Deuteronomy 10:16, “And you shall circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and harden your neck no more.”

So to say it is "only" physical in the "OT" is not true.

well the parts of the Law concerning blood atonement are changed but everything else remains incumbent on every believer" is also moot ((and also unsupportable, but as far as it touches on physical circumcision it doesn't even need to be refuted)). circumcision is not a priestly ordinance and is not concerning atonement for sin.


but I never said this "quote" It is not my words nor does it match my view. So essentially you are replying in a psudo manner and saying it;s wrong. For explanantion of your view I get it, but I want to be clear that is not my view.

As far as blood Sacrifice goes, I beleive the Law is still valid but THE ONLY WAY to "fulfill" it is to accept the Passover Lamb Yahshua, for His blood was shed by His own admission for us. Now the way I see it if that Law were abolished those born after it;s abolishement would be unable to apply His work as the true Passover Lamb. and yes Joshua circumcised some Israylites, so it is not a priestly duty, but I would point to it always being a physical and spiritual command.

some extraordinary, amazing truth is at play here, because Christ's statements that '
not one yodh' is removed until all is fulfilled, and that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for a single yodh to pass, are both absolutely true, but it is also absolutely true that (1) the commandment to be physically circumcised is made of of these very yodhs and is within this very Law, and (2) it is not physically demanded of those who are counted as believers.
If we really look at the details of "NT" physical circumcision, like in Acts 15, the new convnerts were told by some "they MUST be circumcised and keep the Law" however this was overuled, but this does not mean the can not or will eventually not, but "those coming to Christ" are new in the faith and a basic set of guidelines were given, (that noboday today follows or thinks are valid it seems) but theres were not a be all end all set of "rules" laws as stealing and mony other "sins" were not mentioned. Bottom line it seemed a big issue back then and from what is written I personally go with the bottom line of "what did Yahshua say" and each must choose their own path, I personally was circumcised at the hospital as a newborn and honestly I think tht it is YHWH the circumcises our hearts, cuts out the desire for bad things and thus we seek and enjoy His ways more and more. and of course this is the more most important part, cant have a rebellious heart towards the Most High...
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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but I never said this "quote" It is not my words nor does it match my view.
studydude & others have made this exact argument in reply to what i point out about physical circumcision, that only the priesthood and sacrificial system, specifically the blood atonement, is changed.
maybe this doesn't apply to you, but what i was saying are moot arguments are still moot arguments.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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the greater point is this:

arguing that the things in the Law should be done because 'not one jot or tittle is removed' is incompatible with failing also to argue that the sacrifice of bulls and goats and doves must continue. it is incompatible with failing also to argue that a descendant of Aaron is high priest and that the physical ordinances of the physical temple must be kept. these things are also jots and tittles; to argue that ((in context of this thread)) sabbath must be observed because 'jots and tittles' and also argue that the blood of bulls is not any longer required for remittance of sin is hypocritical. it is hypocritical because 'jots and tittles' -- 'jots and tittles,' in the context of this thread, is a self-defeating argument.
well I have explained my stanceon this many times. anything that is a Priest duty is the jopb of the current and eternal High Priest to carry out and as we see in Isa 66 and Zech 14 these offerings will take place in the 1,000 reign...

also calling the 4th Commandment a "jot and tittle" is silly but to each their own.

being oft slandered, i feel like i need to point out again, i am not arguing against honoring the sabbath. i am exposing holes in logic and i am upholding the fact that the scripture clearly teaches us not to allow anyone to judge us over sabbaths, and that sabbaths are mere shadows of the reality found in Jesus of Nazareth.
i am arguing against bad argumentation and arguing against judging any believer over observation of sabbath, because bad argumentation to me has equivalence to lying, and because i believe Colossians ch. 2 is unmitigatedly clear on this point.
OK I judge no one concerning anything. Yahshua is jude and He will fulfill His role, judgement is saying one is or is not going to the kingdom. I can make no distinction because I am not the judge, I dont have all the facts thus even if I wanted to, and I dont, but I could not make final judgement. This does not mean I cant say stealing is wrong, and I would like to add that in Col 2 it;s seems one can;t be judged for honoring the Sabbath either, not saying you do but pointing this out.

yes the Sabbath is a prophetic picture of the 1,000 reign/Sabbath millennium, and the reality is in the Messiah, however that reality is still future, just like 4 of the 7 Feats days are still future, for myself I joyfully look forward to theres future events and take joy in celebrating them in the ways YHWH said in Scripture.

FInally, and everyone is different, but for me having a scheduled set apart time for Yah and His will has over the years drawn me closer to Him than anything else in this world.
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
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never said that.

to say i did is slander :)
I was not saying you did

I just want to state something on this topic because this is an important thing IMO:

Yes physical circumcisiom is carried out in a physical way, but so is loving you father and mother ot not murdering. Also in the "OT" circumcision was SUPPOSED to represent something deeper than a cut in the flesh:

Deuteronomy 10:16, “And you shall circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and harden your neck no more.”

So to say it is "only" physical in the "OT" is not true.
If you look at my words I was making a general statement before I started...

This was to set the tone for my reply, as many peoiple say "in the "OT" it was physical, in the "NT" its spiritual, yet we see it is spiritual in the "OT"

again this was a statement of my views

studydude & others have made this exact argument in reply to what i point out about physical circumcision, that only the priesthood and sacrificial system, specifically the blood atonement, is changed.
maybe this doesn't apply to you, but what i was saying are moot arguments are still moot arguments.
again but I never said that, someone else did, I get bringing it up for the overview, but that is why I made it clear that is not my view.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,976
10,805
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If we really look at the details of "NT" physical circumcision, like in Acts 15, the new convnerts were told by some "they MUST be circumcised and keep the Law" however this was overuled, but this does not mean the can not or will eventually not, but "those coming to Christ" are new in the faith and a basic set of guidelines were given, (that noboday today follows or thinks are valid it seems) but theres were not a be all end all set of "rules" laws as stealing and mony other "sins" were not mentioned. Bottom line it seemed a big issue back then and from what is written I personally go with the bottom line of "what did Yahshua say" and each must choose their own path, I personally was circumcised at the hospital as a newborn and honestly I think tht it is YHWH the circumcises our hearts, cuts out the desire for bad things and thus we seek and enjoy His ways more and more. and of course this is the more most important part, cant have a rebellious heart towards the Most High...
"eventually"?

are you saying as people "
mature" in their faith they will be led to become physically circumcised?

((if so)) how in the world do you think that is compatible with the message of the apostle in Galatians? '
having begun in the Spirit are you now perfected by the flesh?' doesn't he tell them that if they allow themselves to become circumcised they make Christ of no value to themselves? that's very strong language! how can Paul say that if he considers it a sin not to be circumcised ((like you told me it is about tzitzit, because, you argue, any part of the Law we don't keep is sin))??
it seems to me that false teachers were telling these people that ((specifically)) becoming circumcised would be a mark of maturity - through obedience to all the things in the Law, as though under them - and that Paul is destroying this teaching.

what you say, it is honestly YHWH who circumcises, is what the scripture says. amen. not with human hands.
so here is a commandment of the Law - in jots and tittles - that is physically required of anyone under the Law.
in Christ, it is spiritually required, not physically required, and it is done by God's hand, not by man's.
this proves that such a truth exists.


i believe completely that the Law is, holy, perfect, and good.
also i believe this:


We know that the Law is spiritual
(Romans 7:14)

my question is, what is the spiritual reality of the physical commandment to make and wear tzitzit?
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
113
"eventually"?

are you saying as people "mature" in their faith they will be led to become physically circumcised?

((if so)) how in the world do you think that is compatible with the message of the apostle in Galatians? 'having begun in the Spirit are you now perfected by the flesh?' doesn't he tell them that if they allow themselves to become circumcised they make Christ of no value to themselves? that's very strong language! how can Paul say that if he considers it a sin not to be circumcised ((like you told me it is about tzitzit, because, you argue, any part of the Law we don't keep is sin))??
it seems to me that false teachers were telling these people that ((specifically)) becoming circumcised would be a mark of maturity - through obedience to all the things in the Law, as though under them - and that Paul is destroying this teaching.


what you say, it is honestly YHWH who circumcises, is what the scripture says. amen. not with human hands.
so here is a commandment of the Law - in jots and tittles - that is physically required of anyone under the Law.
in Christ, it is spiritually required, not physically required, and it is done by God's hand, not by man's.
this proves that such a truth exists.


i believe completely that the Law is, holy, perfect, and good.
also i believe this:


We know that the Law is spiritual
(Romans 7:14)

my question is, what is the spiritual reality of the physical commandment to make and wear tzitzit?
No I didnt say that. I said "but this does not mean the can not or will eventually not " Just like people mature in their walk, they may or may not remove a certian sin or may or may not do certian acts of charity. Everyone has free will to choose their path and in the end no 2 paths are indentical. The letter to the Galatians IMO is misused because Paul states that the Galatians were seeking to be JUSTIFIED by the works. Doing something to be justified and doing something because it is right, it is a dedication to Yah, etc is not the same thing. If one was going "yes I will be circumcised to be fully justified before Yah" that would be wrong IMO because the Messiah is the only One who can reconcile us to YHWH... Just an example...

for the tzitzit, well one would have to first understand their intent and meaning. It is IMO to remember YHWH, His Laws and the healing brought forth by Yahshua. To me this is a physical thing (the tzitzit) bringing a spiritual thing (thigns of YHWH) to mind... So to me this is like a physical training tool to teach a spiritual lesson. After all we are physical beings and as an examplel YHWH chastenes us physically to bring us to Him...
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,976
10,805
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FInally, and everyone is different, but for me having a scheduled set apart time for Yah and His will has over the years drawn me closer to Him than anything else in this world.
1,000 amens, bro.

i try to wake up each day at least two hours earlier than i need to get ready to go to work, and spend time praying and reading. i find it a great blessing, personally it works well for me, and the rest of the day i am reminded of the things i read and meditate on them. :)

not that i call that 'sabbath' or anything, just that yes, it is very good to set apart time to Him. the sabbath is good! and it is wise to keep it. like i said, simultaneously i have to believe what is said, 'do not let anyone judge you' with regard to it. and i have to reconcile the goodness of the command with the fact that the day and the observance of it is a shadow; the reality is Christ, and God is Spirit. and knowing that i am not under the Law, because of what Christ has done, and also simultaneously the Law is good.

i don't want bitterness between us; we are trying to serve the same Master, i know
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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1,000 amens, bro.

i try to wake up each day at least two hours earlier than i need to get ready to go to work, and spend time praying and reading. i find it a great blessing, personally it works well for me, and the rest of the day i am reminded of the things i read and meditate on them. :)

not that i call that 'sabbath' or anything, just that yes, it is very good to set apart time to Him. the sabbath is good! and it is wise to keep it. like i said, simultaneously i have to believe what is said, 'do not let anyone judge you' with regard to it. and i have to reconcile the goodness of the command with the fact that the day and the observance of it is a shadow; the reality is Christ, and God is Spirit. and knowing that i am not under the Law, because of what Christ has done, and also simultaneously the Law is good.

i don't want bitterness between us; we are trying to serve the same Master, i know
and that Yah time is set apart to Him, and that is awesome. Building relationship with Him daily! I want to say something about my journey, and it just my journey, when I started honoring the Sabbath I was being cleaning up by Yah but still had some friends I used to hang out with and maybe watch worldly movies, talk about worldly stuff, etc on any given day. After honoring the Sabbath, I would not see them during that time, then maybe the next day or the next time I would see them I would "dive into the pig pen" and after I would feel bad, not only because I was dwellning on nonsense but I felt hypocritical, like here I am focusing on Yah and then poof back to the world... These thoughts, inspired by Yah I beleive, helped change me, then I started staying in His Spirit the next day, and then more and more, eventaully my focus was on Him continually, and for me without the Sabbath "training" I maybe would have never done this. While Is till did my own work and (clean) fun during the week it showed me a different lever of set apartness... So I honestly do respect and am motivated by the light you shine when you say the 2 hours everymorning. If we are to live to Yah I not sure there could be a better way to start a day than to spend time with Him in pray and seeking...

Psalm 90:14, “Satisfy us in the morning with Your loving-commitment, And let us sing for joy all our days!”
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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for the tzitzit, well one would have to first understand their intent and meaning. It is IMO to remember YHWH, His Laws and the healing brought forth by Yahshua. To me this is a physical thing (the tzitzit) bringing a spiritual thing (thigns of YHWH) to mind... So to me this is like a physical training tool to teach a spiritual lesson. After all we are physical beings and as an examplel YHWH chastenes us physically to bring us to Him...
it seems to me in fact that the command of tzitzit speaks about the the sabbath as spiritual, beyond the physical ordinance of the Law.
it is given right after the stoning of the man gathering wood, and it is said to be purposed as a reminder in order that we not follow the 'harlotry' to which our hearts are inclined. the adjacency of this commandment to the record of this man who was gathering wood on the sabbath draws a connection to his violation of the sabbath to adultery, and the prophets all speak of adultery and harlotry in a spiritual sense, in connection with idolatry. there is an implied equivalence between what this man was doing and spiritual adultery - with idolatry. in 1 Samuel 15, stubbornness/arrogance/presumptuousness is also equivocated with idolatry.
does all this mean that what this man was doing was a lot more involved than just physical labor? just before this in Leviticus 15 is commandments concerning unintentional and presumptuous sin. for unintentional sin, sacrifices are given. for presumptuous sin, the offender is to be 'cut off from his people' -- is that death penalty? -- regardless, the man is put to death: this is not unintentional act he committed. he knew what he was doing and despised the command, and set out with an intention to disobey it. what exactly was his plan? who is this man? and this is connected with harlotry, with spiritual adultery, with idolatry, as though what has been violated is much more than a physical ordinance.
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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it seems to me in fact that the command of tzitzit speaks about the the sabbath as spiritual, beyond the physical ordinance of the Law.
it is given right after the stoning of the man gathering wood, and it is said to be purposed as a reminder in order that we not follow the 'harlotry' to which our hearts are inclined. the adjacency of this commandment to the record of this man who was gathering wood on the sabbath draws a connection to his violation of the sabbath to adultery, and the prophets all speak of adultery and harlotry in a spiritual sense, in connection with idolatry. there is an implied equivalence between what this man was doing and spiritual adultery - with idolatry. in 1 Samuel 15, stubbornness/arrogance/presumptuousness is also equivocated with idolatry.
does all this mean that what this man was doing was a lot more involved than just physical labor? just before this in Leviticus 15 is commandments concerning unintentional and presumptuous sin. for unintentional sin, sacrifices are given. for presumptuous sin, the offender is to be 'cut off from his people' -- is that death penalty? -- regardless, the man is put to death: this is not unintentional act he committed. he knew what he was doing and despised the command, and set out with an intention to disobey it. what exactly was his plan? who is this man? and this is connected with harlotry, with spiritual adultery, with idolatry, as though what has been violated is much more than a physical ordinance.
Wow so there is a lot of meat in there... Well the forst thing that comes to mind is "rebellion is as witchcraft" JUST as you said...

1 Samuel 15:23, “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as wickedness and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of יהוה, He also does reject you as sovereign.”

and this makes sense, I never thought of it directly in the terms you laid out, but that does indeed fit within what Scripture says about them:

Numbers 15:38-41, “Speak to the children of Yisra’yl, and you shall say to them to make tzitzit on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue cord in the tzitzit of the corners. And it shall be to you for a tzitzit, and you shall see it, and shall remember all the commands of יהוה and shall do them, and not search after your own heart and your own eyes after which you went whoring, "so that you remember, and shall do all My commands, and be set-apart unto your Mighty One. I am יהוה your Mighty One, who brought you out of the land of Mitsrayim, to be your Mighty One. I am יהוה your Mighty One.”

If we guard His Commands and are set apart to Him (the Sabbath being the most prominent "set spart" Command) we would not go astray...

I cant help but think about this:

Matthew 14:35-36, “And when the men of that place recognized Him, they sent out into all that surrounding country, and brought to Him all who were sick, and begged Him to let them only touch the tzitzit of His garment. And as many as touched it were completely healed.”

Malachi 4:2, “But to you who fear My Name the Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in His wings. And you shall go out and leap for joy like calves from the stall.”

1 Samuel 12:24, “Only fear יהוה, and you shall serve Him in truth with all your heart, for consider what marvels He has done for you.”

1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”


Mark 10:52, “And יהושע said to him, “Go, your belief has healed you.” And immediately he saw again and followed יהושע on the way.”

Mark 5:34, “And He said to her, “Daughter, your belief has healed you. Go in peace, and be relieved from your affliction.”

Luke 17:19, “And He said to him, “Rise, go your way. Your belief has made you well.”

John 5:14, “Afterward יהושע found him in the Set-apart Place, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, so that no worse matter befalls you.”

John 8:11, “And she said, “No one, Master.” And יהושע said to her, “Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more.”

He saves us, this drives one to joy and love for Him, and something to remind us of all of this and to then follow Him... Maybe im not explin it well but the verses I posted invoke the thoughs when I read them...
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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if they were proselytes they made themselves under the Law.

Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
(Acts 13:3)
but my argument is that the argument that Paul attending synagogue indicates all believers must ceremonially keep sabbath according to the Law is spurious. to prove my case, which is a counter-case to an argument you implied by citing his attendance at synagogue...
I guess my first question is, "are we properly arguing now?"

If we are, this is a falacy of false implication into a strawman. In my post you quoted I was clear what my point was for that reference of scripture, but here you're telling me what argument I'm implying by it (false implication = "so what you're saying is...") and then choosing to counter-argue THAT argument; an argument I never made. Strawman.

Clearly you see that, right? I can't defend a point I never made.

Again, me showing that gentiles attended the synagogue on Sabbath was to show another CC member here that gentiles were indeed familiar with the Sabbath, as he falsely argued that they weren't.

Again, it's false to claim gentiles weren't familiar with the sabbath, as I assume you agree with me (correctly implied by your opening reply regarding proselytes), right? What the passage indicates is that they were familiar with the Sabbath; that it CAN NOT be assumed as part of the "burden" the Elders mentioned, right?

^That's the extent of the point made to you. Do you agree with the point? I think you do but I just want to confirm.

If you agree we can build from there.
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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studydude & others have made this exact argument in reply to what i point out about physical circumcision, that only the priesthood and sacrificial system, specifically the blood atonement, is changed.
maybe this doesn't apply to you, but what i was saying are moot arguments are still moot arguments.
I'm in agreement with Paul and Peter on this one. To a new convert, it would be unnecessary to force an adult into cutting off some of their flesh, if their heart was not right with God. For this reason God commanded that the foreskins of our heart be circumcised first. Then, as Paul said, let each man be convinced in their own mind whether they are led by the spirit God gives to perform the ritual, or if His Promise in the "Jot's and Tittles" to let Gentiles into His fold, "uncircumcised" by definition, makes the Physical aspect un-important.

I was circumcised by religious parents. (Mother was AOG) So I am not faced with this decision.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Then, as Paul said, let each man be convinced in their own mind whether they are led by the spirit God gives to perform the ritual
Paul said no such thing. In fact he opposed any such idea. So refrain from concocting your own theology.