SALVATION BASED ON FAITH

[eternally-gratefull]

James makes clear his audience in verse 1, James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

In every case throughout Scripture, the twelve tribes always refers to the nation of Israel. Using "twelve tribes" to refer to Jewish Christians would violate every other usage in Scripture.

Also, there were those in James' audience who had not received the word and their souls were not saved:

1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

James is asking them to receive with meekness the engrafted word to save their souls.

I agree, all Scripture is inspired of God, but not all Scripture is directed to the body of Christ, the church. Scripture instructed Noah to build an ark. Scripture instructed Abraham to sacrifice his son. Scripture instructed the Israelites to follow the law of Moses. Etc... We read these Scripture but we do not take them literally to us to obey. They are for us to study but it's not doctrine for us to follow.

The Ot testament was written to jews.

Unless you think that has no bearing on us, and we can completely ignore it.. Your point is mute

Yes james was written to his fellow countrymen, it was a love letter to them, It does not mean his words do not appeal or relate to us also.

Can you be a hearer of the word and not a doer? Well of course you can, so can I, So we better read what James has to say about it, Because it relates to us.. and would heed us to do what he said..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gaah!
I don't see trusting God for eternal life and trusting God for provision as two separate things. I just see them as trusting God.

That may be where the problem is.. If my faith in God for eternity has to equal my faith in all areas of my life, I probably do not have very much faith in God, because I am sure there are areas of my life I stil do not trust God in like I should..

In fact, many years ago I lost faith in the church and assembling together. so I became a prodigal for 5 years.. Did I lose salvation then??

One is believing Him regarding an eternal thing and one is believing Him regarding a temporal thing.

right, so they are two different things, Not the same.. I can trust hi in one completely, and not in the other.. Does the lack of belief in one negate the compete belief in the other?

If I believe Him that He will raise me from the dead and give me a new body but I don't believe Him regarding provision, can I honestly say I'm trusting Him?

Do you lack faith in all areas? If a person said they trusted God in salvation, but not in ANY area, I would agree, then again, that person would show no works right. Show no proof of salvation.
Saying I lack faith in this area of my life because i am a baby christian is not the same as saying I lack faith in any area..

so if your context is they lack faith in all areas, I agree,, If it is in some areas, Would they not have faith in others? And is god going to judge them because they are weak in some areas of their life? because they have not yet grown?

I'm going to believe Him for the thing that is clearly impossible and huge and a miracle but I'm not going to trust Him for the smaller and temporary thing? IS that trust? Or is that picking and choosing the things that sound pleasant to me and that I really want, and then discarding the things that require struggle in prayer to overcome?

Are you a spiritually mature believer, who is sinless, and has no struggles in life? Were that way the moment you were saved? or did it take time?

Saying I understand I am a sinner, I understand I earn judgment, because I have sinned, And I trust you to save me, because of my sin, ad because I have rebelled against you, and because of what your son did on the cross on my behalf is one thing.

That does not automatically say you will trust hi in every area of your life and you become superwoman/man christian the moment you are saved.

It takes growth and learning to trust God in areas of our life. But because we are still sinners, and still need to grow. We have to continue to have Faith God will still keep his word, even though we will fail.

I am sorry sis, What you are saying sounds good.. And I think that is why so many people say it,,

But All I have to do is look at the corinthian church, Who trusted God for salvation, And paul said they were saved, But struggled with sin, and could not eat meat, because they were still babes in christ

Why?

Although the trusted in God for salvation, They did not trust God in all areas of their life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So when you read "to the twelve tribes scattered abroad" why did you ever assume it meant Jewish Christians? This violates all other usages in Scripture. Let Scripture be honest to you.

I think it meant what it said,

to the 12 tribes scattered.. Be they christian or not..

Why try to add to what it says??

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That may be where the problem is.. If my faith in God for eternity has to equal my faith in all areas of my life, I probably do not have very much faith in God, because I am sure there are areas of my life I stil do not trust God in like I should..

In fact, many years ago I lost faith in the church and assembling together. so I became a prodigal for 5 years.. Did I lose salvation then??






right, so they are two different things, Not the same.. I can trust hi in one completely, and not in the other.. Does the lack of belief in one negate the compete belief in the other?



Do you lack faith in all areas? If a person said they trusted God in salvation, but not in ANY area, I would agree, then again, that person would show no works right. Show no proof of salvation.
Saying I lack faith in this area of my life because i am a baby christian is not the same as saying I lack faith in any area..

so if your context is they lack faith in all areas, I agree,, If it is in some areas, Would they not have faith in others? And is god going to judge them because they are weak in some areas of their life? because they have not yet grown?






Are you a spiritually mature believer, who is sinless, and has no struggles in life? Were that way the moment you were saved? or did it take time?

Saying I understand I am a sinner, I understand I earn judgment, because I have sinned, And I trust you to save me, because of my sin, ad because I have rebelled against you, and because of what your son did on the cross on my behalf is one thing.

That does not automatically say you will trust hi in every area of your life and you become superwoman/man christian the moment you are saved.

It takes growth and learning to trust God in areas of our life. But because we are still sinners, and still need to grow. We have to continue to have Faith God will still keep his word, even though we will fail.

I am sorry sis, What you are saying sounds good.. And I think that is why so many people say it,,

But All I have to do is look at the corinthian church, Who trusted God for salvation, And paul said they were saved, But struggled with sin, and could not eat meat, because they were still babes in christ

Why?

Although the trusted in God for salvation, They did not trust God in all areas of their life.

Yes, it took time. And no, I am not sinless, never struggle in my faith, etc.
But neither am I going to tell anyone that continued growth in trust is completely unnecessary and that they only have to believe they will live forever and not believe anything else their Lord has said and never grow in trust. If I see someone worrying over provision (temporal OR spiritual provision), I am going to try to help them and build them up in their trust - not tell them it is unnecessary to remain in trust and grow in trust.

 

[valiant]

Then his way contradicts all other usages in Scripture. Twelve tribes refers to all those who are descendents of the twelve tribes of Israel. It never refers to a specific called out group.

James and the other Apostles all saw the true Christian church as the continuation of Israel. The Gentiles who had become Christians had in their view joined the 12 tribes (Eph 2.11 onward; 1 Peter 2.9). As incidentally had the proselytes in the Old Testament. It is simply that you do not believe what the Scriptures actually teach.

Incidentally 'the Jews' were a conglomerate body many of whom were not descendants of the 12 tribes. Thus the Edomites who were converted by force under Hyrcanus, and the Galilean Gentiles under Aristobulus, were all looked on as Jews and as 'members of the 12 tribes', as were many who became Israelites like Uriah the Hittite.. If you knew your Jewish history you would know this.

Indeed that is why the Judaists demanded that all Christian be circumcised, because they saw them as becoming Jews. Paul did not argue against that. What he claimed was that they were circumcised in Christ (Col 2).

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That makes sense valiant.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, it took time. And no, I am not sinless, never struggle in my faith, etc.
But neither am I going to tell anyone that continued growth in trust is completely unnecessary
and that they only have to believe they will live forever and not believe anything else their Lord has said and never grow in trust.

Can you name one person in CC who ever has said this? I have been here for many years, and never heard anyone tell anyone this sort of thing.. And if I did, I would be on them just as hard as I am on the egalist.

If I see someone worrying over provision (temporal OR spiritual provision), I am going to try to help them and build them up in their trust -

This is part of discipleship. It is part of being in the body as we help each other. It is part of spiritual growth, And I would hope you would. Everyone I know would.. I would hope

not tell them it is unnecessary to remain in trust and grow in trust.

Again, Who would say such a thing? The only people I hear even mention it are the legalistic person who is trying to attack grace oriented people and say this is what they believe. I have never heard one grace oriented person say this is how they would act, or tell anyone who is a child of God.

 

[John146]

The Ot testament was written to jews.

Unless you think that has no bearing on us, and we can completely ignore it.. Your point is mute

Is the teaching to the Jews in the OT doctrine for us to obey? Do you obey the sacrificial system? God commanded it in Scripture. Which part of the OT do you literally obey? I know we can learn lessons from the OT. I have never said anything to the contrary.

The book of James can have meaning to us today, but doctrinally it is to the nation of Israel in their tribulation. When will the nation of Israel be in great tribulation? The time of Jacob's trouble.

 

[John146]

I think it meant what it said,

to the 12 tribes scattered.. Be they christian or not..

Why try to add to what it says??

My point exactly. Twelve tribes mean twelve tribes, the nation of Israel as a whole.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My point exactly. Twelve tribes mean twelve tribes, the nation of Israel as a whole.

saved or unsaved..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is the teaching to the Jews in the OT doctrine for us to obey? Do you obey the sacrificial system? God commanded it in Scripture. Which part of the OT do you literally obey? I know we can learn lessons from the OT. I have never said anything to the contrary.

The book of James can have meaning to us today, but doctrinally it is to the nation of Israel in their tribulation. When will the nation of Israel be in great tribulation? The time of Jacob's trouble.

James did not give some new law. And yes the OT relates to us today, No one was ever saved by obeying the law. It was a teaching tool..

You act as if james gave a new law which only isreal was supposed to follow. we do not have to..nor do they relate to us, When every word he said is just as applicable to us as they are for anyone else..

 

[John146]

James and the other Apostles all saw the true Christian church as the continuation of Israel. The Gentiles who had become Christians had in their view joined the 12 tribes (Eph 2.11 onward; 1 Peter 2.9). As incidentally had the proselytes in the Old Testament. It is simply that you do not believe what the Scriptures actually teach.

Incidentally 'the Jews' were a conglomerate body many of whom were not descendants of the 12 tribes. Thus the Edomites who were converted by force under Hyrcanus, and the Galilean Gentiles under Aristobulus, were all looked on as Jews and as 'members of the 12 tribes', as were many who became Israelites like Uriah the Hittite.. If you knew your Jewish history you would know this.

Indeed that is why the Judaists demanded that all Christian be circumcised, because they saw them as becoming Jews. Paul did not argue against that. What he claimed was that they were circumcised in Christ (Col 2).

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ.

Thanks for the poke about not believing what Scripture says. I'm one of the few ones on this board who actually believe they hold Scripture in their hands.

 

[John146]

saved or unsaved..

May be both, but it's a letter to the whole nation of Israel.

 

[John146]

James did not give some new law. And yes the OT relates to us today, No one was ever saved by obeying the law. It was a teaching tool..

You act as if james gave a new law which only isreal was supposed to follow. we do not have to..nor do they relate to us, When every word he said is just as applicable to us as they are for anyone else..

The OT law was to be followed. It was not a choice to remain in God's standing. Following the law brought man righteousness but it was not God's righteousness through Christ.

 

[John146]

James did not give some new law. And yes the OT relates to us today, No one was ever saved by obeying the law. It was a teaching tool..

You act as if james gave a new law which only isreal was supposed to follow. we do not have to..nor do they relate to us, When every word he said is just as applicable to us as they are for anyone else..

In James 5, all of the rich men are damned. There are no Christian rich men in James. See also 1:11 and 2:6-7. The context is not the Church Age at all but the "coming of the Lord." In the tribulation, the rich condemn the just. A man cannot get riches unless he takes the mark of Satan. No one can buy or sell unless they have the mark of the beast.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

May be both, but it's a letter to the whole nation of Israel.

True, Which means your point it was only written to unsaved does not hold any validity, Can you agree there?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In James 5, all of the rich men are damned. There are no Christian rich men in James. See also 1:11 and 2:6-7. The context is not the Church Age at all but the "coming of the Lord." In the tribulation, the rich condemn the just. A man cannot get riches unless he takes the mark of Satan. No one can buy or sell unless they have the mark of the beast.

There are no christian rich men in james? Says who? Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[truthhurts]

So when you read "to the twelve tribes scattered abroad" why did you ever assume it meant Jewish Christians? This violates all other usages in Scripture. Let Scripture be honest to you.

You are assuming I do not understand that, I do, my debate is that you feel there is nothing worth while for us in the 5 chapters, so if that is true, just rip all the pages out of your Bible

 

[John146]

There are no christian rich men in james? Says who? Where do you come up with this stuff?

1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

Paul does not condemn any believer for being rich.

 

[PeterJens]

I had a thought about the extreme responses some give.
In most conversations to make a point you need some agreement that the other
party at least is interested, and that there is some mutual respect.

If someone starts with you are a lying decietful individual who is dooming people to hell,
things are never going to get far. And you are talking to people who claim to know Jesus,
love, grace and peace. What this has taught me is this poison of the heart, this agression
without justification or provocation is deadly, so it just has to be avoided.

Jesus and love hopes for the best in people and expects a peaceful response.
If there is none, then so be, the gospel will always prosper elsewhere.

Blessed are the peacemakers for they are the sons of God.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Matt 5:6
Righteousness is love though people think of it as law and legalism, it is not.

Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.
Luke 6:21

We have needs now, the Lord will meet them, we are upset about the state things
are in, the Lord will bring true healing and joy to bring live and love into reality.