SALVATION BASED ON FAITH

[eternally-gratefull]

When I tie this part of your post in with the other part of your post where you say satan lies and tells us we must continue trusting, I get confused at what you are trying to convey. You seem to want to say we have the security of eternal life but have it apart from continuing in the trust through which we received it in the first place, by Gods' kindness.

So it appears to my understanding that you are saying you have been saved by the kindness of God, through trust, but continuing trust is now no longer in play because you cannot be disqualified from the "race of trust to the end" by not continuing to race at all. This is how my mind sees what you are saying.

Again, Are you talking about trusting in God for salvation (a gift of God which can never be earned). Or running a race? where we can earn rewards)

again I ask, Because I do not think we can mix the two. and that is where many get into trouble, because they mix the two.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am talking about trust, through which it all comes to us.
It is by the kindness of God, through trust, that a man is saved, and that trust is not of himself so no man can boast.
It seems bizarre to me to then say: okay, done deal, now God has no recourse if I dump the trust part of that. That would scare me.

It would only scare you if you did not have faith at all. And those are the people who will leave eventually and deny Christ, due to lack of faith.. (see 1 John 2) As someone showed earlier today some place, the bible says , we are not the ones who fall back to perdition, They are. Even John said we are not the ones who need to be taught, because we know all things (concerning the gospel) Not all things of God we are continually learning day by day different things about God

I have yet to be shown how a person can have faith in a loving God to save them completely from their sin, and have an reason to lose trust in that faith.

I have seen people lack faith in parts of their life. But no lack of faith that God is real and he can save them.

again, to me, If I have to worry about my faith being pure for the rest of my life. I am again, Placing trust in myself. Not God..

 

[truthhurts]

No you can not. Because then your faith would be in how well or how capable you are of abiding, the subject of your faiht is taken off god and placed on yourself and your ability to abide.

I cannot even wrap my head around this statement....

Those who have faith in God. trust in his promise, and his work, Not in themselves, They can now focus on being a child of God and growing in him with no fear of rejection if they do not live up.

God expects us to do our part to grow up spiritually....we do that through going to church, prayer, fasting, reading, studying and meditating on his word his word, entering into intimate relationship with him, allowing ourselves to surrender to the leading of the Holy Spirit in all matters.....these things are not done to obtain and maintain salvation or to become more righteous....they are done as a result of the knowledge of what he has done for us through his grace.....we do it from heart of love and gratitude for Father and his Son.....this is how true intimacy with Father is cultivated.....this is how we abide in him....this is not abiding in our salvation, that was given freely without anything on part but faith to receive it....this perfect love casts out fear of anything.....this is what Heb 4 means by coming boldly to throne of grace....

Satan wants us to doubt our salvation or question it, Because it is then our focus comes of God and we start to focus on performance, (we are only righteous and produce fruit when we abide) and he has taken many a person out of the war because of this lack of faith..

Agreed here, Satan knows who belongs to God and who he cannot mess with....I never doubt my salvation. The Bible tells us the Spirit bears witness with ours that we are sons of God, we have assurance of our salvation...that assurance comes from faith in the Word and the promises.....even a babe in Christ should have this assurance...especially if they have been mentored correctly....Jesus did say to bear fruit we must abide in him....

So to start a person as a new believer and tell him already his salvation is only assured if they abide. That is not a good thing.. Because you have just told that person he must trust himself and his ability Not GOD

This why bible based mentoring and modeling is a must today...

Then to me, they do not understand the gospel.. Jesus said trust him and you have it, Jesus said in John, Eat the food and drink the cup (the word) to the point you understand it and then TRUST it,, And you will never die, live forever, Never hunger or thirst, and be risen on the last day, You HAVE ETERNAL life when you do this.

to deny this is to deny christ, and again, shows lack of faith in Gods word. and his promise.. And switch faith to self..



I will be honest, I do not know how you can say you have faith, and not worry, knowing that if you fall you can lose salvation. To me that would either cause fear. or you would have to hide your fear and end up lying to yourself..

Our eternal security in christ is the bases for growing in christ and having the peace that surpasses all understanding,, It is how we can endure tribulation, Pain Suffering, and continue to carry on, even when we mess up..

Post salvation, what does the walk look like to you?

 

[John146]

what? Where may I ask does this thinking come from I have never heard it.. ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD BREATHED. and is able to rebuke, teach, instruct etc etc.. James is part of that ALL scripture..

James wrote to the people who were the church at the time, He wrote to his brothers and sisters. He wrote concerning an issue thay had right then and there, and the whole church has had since pentecost. That we have many people who THINK they are saved, because they said some prayer, or claimed to have faith.. But by their actions, show their is question of whether they had faith at all. and are really saved.

So he told them (and us) to test our faith.. If we claim we have faith, But are hears of the word and not doers. Can our faith save us?

The answer is no.. Because we never had true faith to begin with, Faith produces work.. He was not telling the church to test peoples faith to see if they think they are saved, He told individuals. Test YOUR faith to make sure it is real.

That is what differes james words from pauls.. Paul spoke to people who did all kinds of work.. But they thought they were saved by those works.. James talked to a few who thought because they had faith, they could do whatever they want, It did not matter, they were saved forever.

James makes clear his audience in verse 1, James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

In every case throughout Scripture, the twelve tribes always refers to the nation of Israel. Using "twelve tribes" to refer to Jewish Christians would violate every other usage in Scripture.

Also, there were those in James' audience who had not received the word and their souls were not saved:

1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

James is asking them to receive with meekness the engrafted word to save their souls.

I agree, all Scripture is inspired of God, but not all Scripture is directed to the body of Christ, the church. Scripture instructed Noah to build an ark. Scripture instructed Abraham to sacrifice his son. Scripture instructed the Israelites to follow the law of Moses. Etc... We read these Scripture but we do not take them literally to us to obey. They are for us to study but it's not doctrine for us to follow.

 

[wsblind]

I think he did just this.

Jesus made it clear. We are saved by faith.

When james states a person has a dead faith, It means that faith has no life, thus it is powerless.. Can a powerless faith save you? No. That was his point.

I think we need to be careful about assuming people that go to our churches are all saved.. There may be many in there who think they are saved, yet have not made that final real decision yet.. Even if they said a "sinners prayer" claiming they have faith in God.

We are saved by a living faith, Not a dead faith.

James is talking about temporal salvation. If we don't grow in His grace and knowledge after we are saved, we won't have the knowledge to save us from everyday life struggles and problems. It's a dead faith, and we can't even save ourselves from lifes simplest problems.

And I agree EG. We can't assume that everyone is saved. In fact, it highly likely that most that are not really saved SEEM to produce a lot of "fruit." And have the act down to a tee.

 

[PeterJens]

I am talking about trust, through which it all comes to us.
It is by the kindness of God, through trust, that a man is saved, and that trust is not of himself so no man can boast.
It seems bizarre to me to then say: okay, done deal, now God has no recourse if I dump the trust part of that. That would scare me.

I would be worried about who God was if He did not expect me to show love and
consideration in response to Him. How could I call Him my friend, my Lord and Saviour
if I betray the very things His heart is set on, and the foundational realities of creation.

A good relationship has mutual respect and understanding. It sounds to be people have
such a low view of themselves and what this relationship is, they would rather it just
be a one way street, but then it is not a relationship it is just a way of using God, as if
that was possible.

 

[truthhurts]

James makes clear his audience in verse 1, James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

In every case throughout Scripture, the twelve tribes always refers to the nation of Israel. Using "twelve tribes" to refer to Jewish Christians would violate every other usage in Scripture.

Also, there were those in James' audience who had not received the word and their souls were not saved:

1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

James is asking them to receive with meekness the engrafted word to save their souls.

I agree, all Scripture is inspired of God, but not all Scripture is directed to the body of Christ, the church. Scripture instructed Noah to build an ark. Scripture instructed Abraham to sacrifice his son. Scripture instructed the Israelites to follow the law of Moses. Etc... We read these Scripture but we do not take them literally to us to obey. They are for us to study but it's not doctrine for us to follow.

forehead slap....

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Again, Are you talking about trusting in God for salvation (a gift of God which can never be earned). Or running a race? where we can earn rewards)

again I ask, Because I do not think we can mix the two. and that is where many get into trouble, because they mix the two.

Gaah!
I don't see trusting God for eternal life and trusting God for provision as two separate things. I just see them as trusting God.
One is believing Him regarding an eternal thing and one is believing Him regarding a temporal thing. If I believe Him that He will raise me from the dead and give me a new body but I don't believe Him regarding provision, can I honestly say I'm trusting Him? I'm going to believe Him for the thing that is clearly impossible and huge and a miracle but I'm not going to trust Him for the smaller and temporary thing? IS that trust? Or is that picking and choosing the things that sound pleasant to me and that I really want, and then discarding the things that require struggle in prayer to overcome?

 

[John146]

forehead slap....

Stop reading commentaries and read what the word actually says...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

forehead slap....

Oh, the lingo for that is smh, I believe...? Stands for smack my head.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I would be worried about who God was if He did not expect me to show love and
consideration in response to Him. How could I call Him my friend, my Lord and Saviour
if I betray the very things His heart is set on, and the foundational realities of creation.

A good relationship has mutual respect and understanding. It sounds to be people have
such a low view of themselves and what this relationship is, they would rather it just
be a one way street, but then it is not a relationship it is just a way of using God, as if
that was possible.

I think the point at which some people have a problem is that they think others think God expects them to show love and so they just show love. They might not understand the struggle in prayer someone goes through every time they see they did not show love. They don't see that hunger for righteousness in their heart that they desire but fail in that causes them to plead with God about their poverty of spirit and lack of love and selfishness. So they think another doesn't understand that it isn't something they did on their own.

 

[truthhurts]

Oh, the lingo for that is smh, I believe...? Stands for smack my head.

smh=shake my head....

 

[truthhurts]

Stop reading commentaries and read what the word actually says...

Maybe you ought to do that yourself...I have never used a commentary

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

smh=shake my head....

Oh, lol, it's a private joke from earlier. Might have been a different thread.

 

[John146]

Maybe you ought to do that yourself...I have never used a commentary

So when you read "to the twelve tribes scattered abroad" why did you ever assume it meant Jewish Christians? This violates all other usages in Scripture. Let Scripture be honest to you.

 

[valiant]

Maybe you ought to do that yourself...I have never used a commentary

you make that obvious lol

 

[valiant]

So when you read "to the twelve tribes scattered abroad" why did you ever assume it meant Jewish Christians? This violates all other usages in Scripture. Let Scripture be honest to you.

James was writing as the head of the Jerusalem church to ALL Christians everywhere. That was his description of the church..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James is talking about temporal salvation. If we don't grow in His grace and knowledge after we are saved, we won't have the knowledge to save us from everyday life struggles and problems. It's a dead faith, and we can't even save ourselves from lifes simplest problems.

And I agree EG. We can't assume that everyone is saved. In fact, it highly likely that most that are not really saved SEEM to produce a lot of "fruit." And have the act down to a tee.

I think he is talking about eternal salvation, Not temporal. That's why he is talking about works being a proof of faith..

If he is just talking about sanctification, Or life on earth, He would not need to tell peopel their faiht was dead, then ask if that could save you, Or mention how Abraham, Who was saved before he did one work, Proved his faith by his work..

We have different struggles day to day,, Thus our faiht in those struggles will go back and forth,, If I lack faith completely in one area of my life, does that mean my faith (as a whole) is dead? Of course not.. so it would make no sense in using this as context.

Faith produces works, How can I CLAIM to have faiht in God, yet have zero zip nada (zero) works..

That is what James is asking, Can your faith save you if it has no work?

Yes, I agree Many seem to have works down to a To, thus those would not be people James is referring to.. Because they have works, James is speaking of people with no works..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I cannot even wrap my head around this statement....

Why is your faith in God or yourself? That is what the comment means.. Its not hard.

if your faith is in your ability to maintain faith, Your faith is in self. Not God.. Quite simple actually.

God expects us to do our part to grow up spiritually....we do that through going to church, prayer, fasting, reading, studying and meditating on his word his word, entering into intimate relationship with him, allowing ourselves to surrender to the leading of the Holy Spirit in all matters.....these things are not done to obtain and maintain salvation or to become more righteous....they are done as a result of the knowledge of what he has done for us through his grace.....we do it from heart of love and gratitude for Father and his Son.....this is how true intimacy with Father is cultivated.....this is how we abide in him....this is not abiding in our salvation, that was given freely without anything on part but faith to receive it....this perfect love casts out fear of anything.....this is what Heb 4 means by coming boldly to throne of grace....

I am talking about how one gets saved, Can we stick to the subject If you want to talk about sanctification of people truly saved, we can do that later. lets get the first part down, or we will never see the other..

ps. I have never stated a person can become born again and never do anything else.. SO please. if your going to use that strawman, Just let it leave your mind.

Agreed here, Satan knows who belongs to God and who he cannot mess with....I never doubt my salvation. The Bible tells us the Spirit bears witness with ours that we are sons of God, we have assurance of our salvation...that assurance comes from faith in the Word and the promises.....even a babe in Christ should have this assurance...especially if they have been mentored correctly....Jesus did say to bear fruit we must abide in him....

Yet if you believe that salvation is dependent on your ability to continue to have faith in God, You just gave satan an opening. All he has to do is get you to lack in faith.. and he has a rope hold..

This why bible based mentoring and modeling is a must today...

I agree. Discipleship modeled churches are few and far between, it may be one reason we have a lifeless church,,

Post salvation, what does the walk look like to you?

Can we get pre salvation and how one is saved down first?

Post salvation will look different to different people. we will all not look the same.. But thats another discussion..

 

[John146]

James was writing as the head of the Jerusalem church to ALL Christians everywhere. That was his description of the church..

Then his way contradicts all other usages in Scripture. Twelve tribes refers to all those who are descendents of the twelve tribes of Israel. It never refers to a specific called out group.