Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

[abcdef]

A-F,



The ToG's were the Roman forces in 67-70 AD. These forces were comprised of Romans, of Syrian and other foreigners who made up their legions from the north, east and south. When Jerusalem fell in late 70 AD, Titus ordered that the entire city be completely dismantled, stone-by-stone. Sound familiar? Thus there was no city left for the Gentiles to trample after 70 AD. It wasn't rebuilt until much later. As recorded by Josephus, if you had been to Jerusalem, left, then returned after this dismantling (desolation), you would not even know you were standing where Jerusalem once stood. It had become a complete wilderness.

I'm not going to disagree about the time of the siege, 42 months. I accept that.

But that didn't end the ToG's, had the ToG's ended at that time, the city would have been restored to Israel.

This is about control of the city, you say it ended in 70 ad, but there is a city Jerusalem right now.

It's about the control over Jerusalem, the trampling. The gentiles would not let the city be rebuilt for fear of the restoration that was promised.

And even now, the battle is over control of Jerusalem.

The Luke 21 passage I cited earlier goes with the Rev 11 passage:

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood,saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

TREAD = TRAMPLE

Thus the ToG lasts just 42 months, the exact amount of time from when Rome first surrounded Jerusalem until the city was destroyed.

The passage in Rev 11 is not 42 literal months, maybe you will go literal on me, in a symbolic passage.

The time is symbolized as 42 months, but is actually 3 1/2 times. It is showing that it is the same time period as the woman in ch 12, who is in the wilderness for the same 3 1/2 times. After she (Israel) is in the wilderness for the 3 1/2 t's, she returns home after the times are over. If the 3 1/2 times were the siege of Jerusalem 70 ad, then she would be in the wilderness for longer than the siege time, continuing to be in the wild after that time.

The 7 times are the same time as the statue in Dan.2, the time that the gentile nations rule over Israel and Jerusalem.

The first 3 1/2 times is from Babylon until the scattering in 70 ad. Dan 12:4-7,

The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 ad until the ToG's end when Israel is restored to Jerusalem. This is the time period shown in the 2 witnesses and the woman of ch 12.

These are symbolic numbers in symbolic passages.

The problem that you have is that the story of the 2 witnesses show the 2 wit's returning to Jerusalem and preaching there, AFTER the 3 1/2 times is over.

They preach and then are killed.

Then they resurrect in front of their enemies after 3 1/2 days.

So how is that 70 ad? when it shows the 2wit's returning to Jerusalem and resurrecting there after the 3 1/2 times? And their enemies beheld them.

You see, out of context the Tog's can be made to fit 70 ad. But in the context of the passages, they tell a different story.

 

[abcdef]

AB's on a sailing ship to nowhere leaving any place....

At least PW does his homework to come up with answers.

 

[garee]

The context of the wrath to come is pre-witnessed by the present revealed wrath (Romans 1 :18 -31 sin in the world) . It will end at the final judgment called the last day or last time (singular) the same moment in the twinkling of the eye of the last resurrection, the last day, all receive their new incorruptible bodies seeing flesh and blood will not be part of the new order.

1Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

last time= last days

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

last day = the resurrection and fianl Judgement day

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Last day = the end of the world the beginning of the new. The Sun and the mon as the temporal time keepers are gone.

We are in the last days/times (plural) They began at the time of reformation when Christ said it is finished the veil was rent signalling the last day/time

cts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

2Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

James 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

2Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

 

[Locutus]

At least PW does his homework to come up with answers.

My answers go right over your head unfortunately.

 

[abcdef]

The context of the wrath to come is pre-witnessed by the present revealed wrath (Romans 1 :18 -31 sin in the world) . It will end at the final judgment called the last day or last time (singular) the same moment in the twinkling of the eye of the last resurrection, the last day, all receive their new incorruptible bodies seeing flesh and blood will not be part of the new order.

1Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

last time= last days

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Jude 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

last day = the resurrection and fianl Judgement day

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Last day = the end of the world the beginning of the new. The Sun and the mon as the temporal time keepers are gone.

We are in the last days/times (plural) They began at the time of reformation when Christ said it is finished the veil was rent signalling the last day/time

cts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

2Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

James 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

2Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Brother garee,

There are 2 "last days".

The last days before the imminent dest of Jeru in 70 ad,

And the last days of the planet.

 

[Locutus]

There are no last days of the planet in prophecy.

 

[abcdef]

My answers go right over your head unfortunately.

"but the earth abideth forever." Eccle 1:4.

Which earth is it referring to?

The one of 70 ad that ended?

Or the one that is abiding presently, after 70 ad?

 

[Locutus]

Trying the ole Ecclesiastes switcheroo again - you tried this before AB...if at first you don't succeed....

 

[Locutus]

AB, you need to get this straight - all the prophetic mentions of destruction of the "heavens and earth" relate to the covenant creation of said "heavens and earth" of the people of Israel.

We see from Isaiah that God created the "heavens and earth" when he gave the Law to Moses (my words) and said "thou are my people) - this is nothing to do with the Genesis creation.

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

We see that Isaiah stated when God destroyed Israel as a nation and a covenant people he would create another "heaven and earth"

Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

The new heavens and earth came into being with the destruction of Jerusalem and the apostate nation in the war of 66-70 AD when the true son's of God were manifested.

 

[abcdef]

AB, you need to get this straight - all the prophetic mentions of destruction of the "heavens and earth" relate to the covenant creation of said "heavens and earth" of the people of Israel.

Brother Locutus,

Not all.

Gen 8:22, "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

When it says, "While the earth remaineth," it points to a time when the things mentioned will not remain.

It is clearly speaking about the material planet and the present material heavens, passing away.

It is not talking about the dest of Jerusalem. Or Israel and Jerusalem.

We see from Isaiah that God created the "heavens and earth" when he gave the Law to Moses (my words) and said "thou are my people) - this is nothing to do with the Genesis creation.

Isa 51:16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

yes

We see that Isaiah stated when God destroyed Israel as a nation and a covenant people he would create another "heaven and earth"

The symbolic heaven and earth was the covenant, that Israel had with God.

The old passed at the cross, the new started on Pentecost.

God's blessings remained on Israel until they rejected the kingdom.

Then when Israel rejected the new covenant heavens and earth, the covenant confirmed for a week ended, when the gentiles entered the kingdom.

The covenant was made at Sinai, and the ark traveled with them, before ever reaching the promised land and Jerusalem.

Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

true

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

If they are not remembered, and do not come into mind, after 70 ad, how come we are still talking about it everyday?

The new heavens and earth came into being with the destruction of Jerusalem and the apostate nation in the war of 66-70 AD when the true son's of God were manifested.

So, every single person, who left Jerusalem, believer or not, gentile or not, was shown to be a son of God?

Hmmm.....What would be your scripture for this?

 

[abcdef]

Trying the ole Ecclesiastes switcheroo again - you tried this before AB...if at first you don't succeed....

I can't make you answer it.

To tell you the truth, I think he was just having a bad day when he wrote that.

I think he was saying more like, opinion, It seems like a lifetime isn't that long compared to the material planet, all is vanity, except God.

The rest of the book is kind of the same theme.

 

[MarcR]

Marc,

There is no 2,000+ year gap taught anywhere in the NT for the events which were about to unfold. The judgment was imminent to them, in their generation. The end of the age was the end of their nation and the Law. The Law was replaced by an entirely new system and you're correct, no longer does God deal through a single nation but all Gentiles may have salvation which first came from the Jews, as Jesus stated. We are the new Jerusalem.

The Israel of today (and since 1948) is not found anywhere in the Bible. Can you find the Nazi holocaust of 6 million Jews? That would be a pretty big event, right? Where is it? Where is space travel, where are cars and planes found in the Bible or computers and the internet? You can't name one single major world event since the first century that is found in the Bible.

Enormous attention was given to the fall of Israel to the Babylonian, before, during and after, right. But you and others want to gloss over the final fall of Israel to the Romans just a mere 40 years after Christ taking the enormity of that event like it didn't happen, apply a 2,000+ year gap and make some future event out of it. This is your folly and where you all err. The destruction of Israel and Jerusalem in the first century whereby 93% of their population was destroyed in the most horrific means imaginable, with divine intervention during this battle perfectly aligns Josephus' account with Jesus' account of what was coming. Take the time to read the relevant portions of Josephus and you will see the Olivet Discourse (all of it) come to life in Josephus' account.

We are now, and have been, in the so-called Millennium. We are in the Kingdom right now reigning over earth. We have the new covenant through His blood. We are citizens of the new Jerusalem, of heaven, not of this earth. We live among dead people walking and it is our job to live apart from them but to be witnesses to them so that as many as possible can be saved before they die.

The rapture happened in the first century, it was a spiritual gathering of the dead saints with the living saints into the spiritual kingdom and temple, not made with hands, which Christ is our chief cornerstone. Now, according to Heb 9, it is appointed for all men to die, then judgment. No mention of rapture sparing billions from physical death. This is pure fantasy devised by Darby, Tim LaHaye, etc. Paul told Titus to have "blessed hope" of Christ's parousia. Paul told the Thessalonians of things they could expect. John wrote that Jesus was coming quickly. Jesus said all eyes would see, including those who pierced Him. Those who pierced Him were still alive in 70 AD, they are all dead now. Jesus promised judgment to that wicked and perverse generation (His generation).

2,000 years of history supports my version and makes your view laughable. How many more thousands of years need to pass? We come to Christ, we become new creations in salvation. We die, we go straight to heaven, with no waiting in Hades. This was the big change that happened in the first century and it has been going on ever since.

I and many people of excellent scholarship disagree with you. That is likely the reason the thread was started.

The fall of Jerusalem was mentioned before the disciples asked for signs of the end times.

The predictions of Mat 24 were not fulfilled until the 20th century and following.

 

[Locutus]

Brother Locutus,

Not all.

Gen 8:22, "While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease."

When it says, "While the earth remaineth," it points to a time when the things mentioned will not remain.

It is clearly speaking about the material planet and the present material heavens, passing away.

Not really, the context is within the destruction of the flood - the planet did not pass away back then.

You are trying to eisegese yerself out of a corner.

And it is not a prophetic text, its a promise to never "destroy" life upon the earth by water, fire or any other means.

Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Gen 8:21 KJV And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Gen 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

If they are not remembered, and do not come into mind, after 70 ad, how come we are still talking about it everyday?

It is God's not "remembering" it - as a covenant it's gone, no longer relevant.

It's only the sabbateurs and lawyers claiming to be Christians that keep remembering it...

So, every single person, who left Jerusalem, believer or not, gentile or not, was shown to be a son of God?

Hmmm.....What would be your scripture for this?

Nothing to do with "leaving" Jeru Mr. Guru, it's about what Paul said:

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

The true sons of God (i.e. followers of Christ) were manifest when the sons of Hagar were cast out in the 1st century AD:

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Any more silly questions???....

 

[PlainWord]

AB's on a sailing ship to nowhere leaving any place....

Yes, but he's not as lost as most people out there, and they know who they are. There is this strong desire out there for Biblical prophetic applicability in our times. It's a natural desire to want Christ to return and put an end to all the wickedness in the world. I get that. Every Christian generation since around the 3rd century has wanted this and thought they were living in the "end times." The world has always been a wicked place. The bad people today are no worse than the bad people of years gone by.

Sadly, it is appointed for us each to physically die with only two exceptions, Enoch and Elijah. After this is judgment - punishment or reward. All the apparent "end times" passages dealt with the end of Israel in 70 AD. You and I both get this, as did the disciples. They all knew that they were literally living in the last days of their 2,000 year old nation.

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

I'm not going to disagree about the time of the siege, 42 months. I accept that.

But that didn't end the ToG's, had the ToG's ended at that time, the city would have been restored to Israel.

This is about control of the city, you say it ended in 70 ad, but there is a city Jerusalem right now.

It's about the control over Jerusalem, the trampling. The gentiles would not let the city be rebuilt for fear of the restoration that was promised.

And even now, the battle is over control of Jerusalem.

Again, after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD there was literally nothing left to trample. The entire city was "as a millstone thrown into the sea." It was literally gone. Only 3 Roman towers remained and a small garrison of Roman troops. One of the three tower remnants still visible today is part of the Antonia tower used by the Romans on their final assault upon the temple. Today it is called the "Western Wall" or "Wailing Wall." Sadly the Jews think it was part of their temple but it is really part of the fortress used to finish them off. So in a way, they are still worshiping Rome.

Around 135 AD, Rome rebuilt the city. But this was no longer the ToG. The restoration of Jerusalem is not and was not about the literally city, it was the spiritual restoration of heavenly Jerusalem of which all of us believers belong. In Gal 4, Paul says it's symbolic then says, "[SUP]26 [/SUP]but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all." It is this Jerusalem that Christ restored us to in the "restoration of all things."

The passage in Rev 11 is not 42 literal months, maybe you will go literal on me, in a symbolic passage.

The time is symbolized as 42 months, but is actually 3 1/2 times. It is showing that it is the same time period as the woman in ch 12, who is in the wilderness for the same 3 1/2 times. After she (Israel) is in the wilderness for the 3 1/2 t's, she returns home after the times are over. If the 3 1/2 times were the siege of Jerusalem 70 ad, then she would be in the wilderness for longer than the siege time, continuing to be in the wild after that time.

The 7 times are the same time as the statue in Dan.2, the time that the gentile nations rule over Israel and Jerusalem.

The first 3 1/2 times is from Babylon until the scattering in 70 ad. Dan 12:4-7,

The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 ad until the ToG's end when Israel is restored to Jerusalem. This is the time period shown in the 2 witnesses and the woman of ch 12.

These are symbolic numbers in symbolic passages.

The problem that you have is that the story of the 2 witnesses show the 2 wit's returning to Jerusalem and preaching there, AFTER the 3 1/2 times is over.

They preach and then are killed.

Then they resurrect in front of their enemies after 3 1/2 days.

So how is that 70 ad? when it shows the 2wit's returning to Jerusalem and resurrecting there after the 3 1/2 times? And their enemies beheld them.

You see, out of context the Tog's can be made to fit 70 ad. But in the context of the passages, they tell a different story.

There is too much wrong with this to correct in one post. Rev 11 covers a very short period of 42 literal months, or 1,260 days from 66-70 AD. The 2 witnesses don't begin after the 42 months, they run concurrently with them, "AND I will give power..." not "THEN I will give power...".

The Woman of Rev 12 is the "Christian" side of Israel. Rev 12 begins with Mary and the birth of Christ, followed by His death, resurrection and ascension. Christ gave birth to the Church (the Woman) as the Church is His bride/wife/woman.

This verse:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

Goes with this verse:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

Both passages has the Woman fleeing from the serpent to her place prepared by God. One passage has it as 1,260 days, the other has it as a time, times and half a time. Thus, these are the same periods describing the same event, that being the fleeing of the Church.

We know from Rev 13, that the Beast of the Sea (Rome) was also Satan, the serpent. Under Nero, Rome had been persecuting the Woman (Church) right up to his death in 68 AD. After 1.5 years of civil war (darkness in the Beast's kingdom) where 3 emperors briefly held power, Vespasian took over in late 69 AD and ordered his son, Titus, to finish off the Jewish uprising. Again, ROME = SATAN as Satan was using Rome as his vehicle to destroy "God's People." However, God's real people, the Church, had already fled Jerusalem to Pella of the Decapolis (the place personally prepared by Christ during his ministry to the Decapolis, Mk 7:31).

 

[PlainWord]

I and many people of excellent scholarship disagree with you. That is likely the reason the thread was started.

The fall of Jerusalem was mentioned before the disciples asked for signs of the end times.

The predictions of Mat 24 were not fulfilled until the 20th century and following.

Sadly, you and your excellent scholarly friends are carnally minded, able only to think in the visible, physical world. Please don't take this the wrong way as I don't mean to put you guys down, but you are all flat out wrong. You all have lost audience integrity, that's perhaps your biggest problem. In Mt 24, Christ was speaking to His Jewish disciples about things that would come in THAT generation. In his letters to the Thessalonians, Paul was speaking to them, not us 2,000 years later. In his letter to Titus, Paul was giving Titus the "blessed hope" of the "glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ," he was not giving this to us 2,000 years later.

The fall of Jerusalem was the "end times." It was the end of 2,000 year old Israel. Christ makes very clear the context in Lk 19:41-44. He can only be describing the Roman siege of Jerusalem which was AKA, "the Great Tribulation" He spoke of in Mt 24. Look at the actual text of the question:



"Tell us, when these things (destruction of the temple) will be; AND what (are) the sign(s) of YOUR PRESENCE (parousia), and of the termination of the (Mosaic) age."

They needed the signs to know when Christ's presence would be there. This question is all about the same 66-70 AD event. Christ's presence returned and was recorded by Josephus. A heavenly army was witnessed by many and recorded by Josephus. Many divine interventions took place that can only have been the hand of God. Every sign Christ gives in Mt 24 happened and is part of the historical record. Rev 1 nails it down.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Behold, He is coming with clouds (heavenly army), and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth (Israel) will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Those who pierced Him were Roman solders, the same ones had to be present with Titus. Those who pierced Him are now long ago dead. Christ's presence (parousia) return had to take place while these very same solders were alive.

Look at the meaning of the word, "parousia." Specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem!!!



GAME...SET...MATCH

 

[PlainWord]

LOC and AB,

I was reading your debate. Here's a passage almost always misunderstood by futurists:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, [SUP]12 [/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? [SUP]13 [/SUP]Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Josephus records this happening (War, 6,4-5)

Now although any one would justly lament the destruction of such a work as this was, since it was the most admirable of all the works that we have seen or heard of, both for its curious structure and its magnitude, and also for the vast wealth bestowed upon it, as well as for the glorious reputation it had for its holiness...

The flame was also carried a long way, and made an echo, together with the groans of those that were slain; and because this hill was high, and the works at the temple were very great, one would have thought the whole city had been on fire.

Thus the "works" in 2 Peter 3 are not "deeds" but rather was the temple. The "earth" was Israel. The "heavens" was the sky which was lit up for miles and seen all the way to the Med. The elements which made up the temple included lots of gold which melted in the extreme heat. This is why every stone was removed so that the gold which melted and fell through the cracks could be recovered.

Revelation 17 states:

The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.

Josephus records this:

...all made of solid gold, and very heavy. He also delivered to him the veils and the garments, with the precious stones, and a great number of other precious vessels that belonged to their sacred worship. The treasurer of the temple also, whose name was Phineas, was seized on, and showed Titus the coats and girdles of the priests, with a great quantity of purple and scarlet, which were there reposited for the uses of the veil...

Thus we have GOLD, PRECIOUS STONES, PURPLE AND SCARLET in both passages. Virtually every so-called prophetic passage can be found fulfilled and recorded in history, mostly by Josephus and other historians.

 

[garee]

Brother garee,

There are 2 "last days".

The last days before the imminent dest of Jeru in 70 ad,

And the last days of the planet.

Its last day (singular).We are in the last time.(many days) there is no second from last. One fleshly outward demonstration is all that was promised.

The old creation vanishes as the new comes in.The one time fleshly demonstration was over when the veil was rent it rendered the bricks and other ceremonial things useless. And the ones that say he do not come the first time (he only came with form once for the one time demonstration. Those antichrists still have portion of a wailing wall that they can worship as a idol image .

He will come like a thief in the night.

The time or refomation had come.

Why look for a fleshly God rather than walk by faith (the unseen)?

God is not a man as us . He remains without mother or father beginning of Spriit life or end of it.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Nothing about coming twice in the flesh.

2Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known "Christ after the flesh", yet now henceforth know we him no more.

 

[abcdef]

Brother PlainWord,.

A-F,



Again, after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD there was literally nothing left to trample. The entire city was "as a millstone thrown into the sea." It was literally gone. Only 3 Roman towers remained and a small garrison of Roman troops. One of the three tower remnants still visible today is part of the Antonia tower used by the Romans on their final assault upon the temple. Today it is called the "Western Wall" or "Wailing Wall." Sadly the Jews think it was part of their temple but it is really part of the fortress used to finish them off. So in a way, they are still worshiping Rome.

Around 135 AD, Rome rebuilt the city. But this was no longer the ToG. The restoration of Jerusalem is not and was not about the literally city, it was the spiritual restoration of heavenly Jerusalem of which all of us believers belong. In Gal 4, Paul says it's symbolic then says, "[SUP]26 [/SUP]but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all." It is this Jerusalem that Christ restored us to in the "restoration of all things."

I love the substance of your posts. Meat for dinner tonight!

There is too much wrong with this to correct in one post. Rev 11 covers a very short period of 42 literal months, or 1,260 days from 66-70 AD. The 2 witnesses don't begin after the 42 months, they run concurrently with them, "AND I will give power..." not "THEN I will give power...".

The 2 witnesses (Israel, broken branches) are in the wild for the 3 1/2 t's. You say that this is the time of the siege.

But at the end of the "time of the siege," the 2 wt's are restored to Jerusalem and witness there.

There they are killed, called to heaven in the presence of their enemies, they see them stand up, and rise to heaven. (Old Jo would have surely mentioned that)

So how can the 2wt's be restored after the siege is over? If it was 70 ad, they would be returning at that time, directly after the siege.

The Woman of Rev 12 is the "Christian" side of Israel.

The woman in ch 12 is Israel the natural branches (OT), waiting for Jesus.

She gives birth to Jesus while the dragon (Rome, Herod) tries to kill Jesus.

Israel is the woman (OT), part of the bride. She is called the bride in the OT.

Rev 12 begins with Mary and the birth of Christ, followed by His death, resurrection and ascension.

Pentecost is also shown, "salvation is come".

Christ gave birth to the Church (the Woman) as the Church is His bride/wife/woman.

This is where this word "church" is misleading, the kingdom, Christ gave "birth" to the kingdom/covenant on Pentecost.

The kingdom is wild and natural branches, it should always be looked at it like that.

When you say "church", it's meanings are so varied, that it is hard to define sometimes.

Examples; church as in building, church as in denomination, as in RCC, as in congregation.

The woman OT, is Israel natural branches (mainly),

After Pentecost for years it was still the natural branches, until the gentiles came in.

So the woman now, is still the natural branches (believers or not), and the wild branches.

This verse:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

You say that this is the time of siege, but what happens after the time is up?

If she is in the wild for that time, what happens then?

I mean, she can't stay, in the wild anymore, because that is the time that God has declared for her to be there, she cannot remain there After the 3 1/2 t's, because God said she can't, she must return home to Jerusalem.

Goes with this verse:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

The dragon iron beast is Rome.

She is in the gentile wilderness, then she MUST return home at the end of the t's.

Both passages has the Woman fleeing from the serpent to her place prepared by God. One passage has it as 1,260 days, the other has it as a time, times and half a time. Thus, these are the same periods describing the same event, that being the fleeing of the Church.

The natural branches, side of the kingdom.

See how the dragon persecutes the wild branches that remain within his reach, her children, "who hold the testimony etc."

We know from Rev 13, that the Beast of the Sea (Rome) was also Satan, the serpent. Under Nero, Rome had been persecuting the Woman (Church) right up to his death in 68 AD.

Kingdom

After 1.5 years of civil war (darkness in the Beast's kingdom) where 3 emperors briefly held power, Vespasian took over in late 69 AD and ordered his son, Titus, to finish off the Jewish uprising. Again, ROME = SATAN as Satan was using Rome as his vehicle to destroy "God's People." However, God's real people, the Church, had already fled Jerusalem to Pella of the Decapolis (the place personally prepared by Christ during his ministry to the Decapolis, Mk 7:31).

Brother, may I offer this,

The time of the 3 1/2t's cannot be literal years.

This is shown in the statue of Dan 2, and the 4th beastie of Dan. 7. (And Rev 13)

We agree that iron and 4th beast is Rome.

The legs/toes show the extent of the time that Rome "has power" over Israel. (This vision was given to the natural branches, as you know).

We see that the time of the legs/toes extends over centuries, from Rome dividing in the 3rd century (legs), the fall of the Empire at the toes dividing, and the time we are in now.

So how long does Rome hold power over the natural branches?

The time of the siege only?

--

Now take that understanding and move to the 4th beast of Dan 7.

How long does the 4th beast have power over the saints? (keep in mind that Israel of the OT were called saints).

Well, Rome began that power in about 67 bc., went through the time of Jesus, the dest of Jeru, The fall of Rome (10 horns), until now.

But when does the iron 4th beast's power over Israel end?

It says that 4th beast has power over the saints for 3 1/2 t's, did Rome only have power over Israel for 3 1/2 years, the time of the siege? or did Rome's power begin long before that, and last for centuries after that?

----

The time of the statue is the 7 times. It shows the time from Babylon until the restoration to Jerusalem.

First 3 1/2 t's, Babylon to 70 ad, power scattered.

Second 3 1/2t's, 70 ad till the end of the ToG's. (power consolidated)

The 2wt's and the woman ch 12 are both the second 3 1/2t's. The same time, as you pointed out, from 70 ad until the tog's end, and the statue ends. (1967, if you can accept it.)

 

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Not really, the context is within the destruction of the flood - the planet did not pass away back then.

True

You are trying to eisegese yerself out of a corner.

No you are! ha ha.

And it is not a prophetic text, its a promise

A promise from God is prophetic. He promised Jesus would come, and that the kingdom would come, those were promises that were prophetic.

to never "destroy" life upon the earth by water

This is shown in Gen 9:15, "...;and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh."

, fire or any other means.

Where does it say that? What stops the natural progression of the universe and planet, from deteriorating as it has for 1000's of years? What event will stop planet earth from being sucked into the sun a billion years from now, like suns and planets do? What event is it? Scripture Please.

Gen 8:21, "...as I have done." He won't do it like he did with the waters again. It leaves open the possibility that He will destroy every living thing again, in a different way, curse (withdraw blessings) the earth (element, ground), waters come rushing in as a flood.

Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Gen 8:21 KJV And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Gen 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Are you missing the words, "While the earth remaineth"?

Cold and heat? Day and night?

It is God's not "remembering" it - as a covenant it's gone, no longer relevant.

Isa 65:17-25, I agree, and the passage is talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit kingdom, the one that started on Pentecost,

So It would seem that the new heavens and earth started on Pentecost, when the new covenant kingdom came.

It's only the sabbateurs and lawyers claiming to be Christians that keep remembering it...

Yes, And people like you and I who study it all the time.

Nothing to do with "leaving" Jeru Mr. Guru, it's about what Paul said:

But you say that it does. You say "salvation", is escaping from the dest of Jeru.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

The context Rom 8:16-25, shows that this about the eternal revealing, not the dest of Jeru.

The true sons of God (i.e. followers of Christ) were manifest when the sons of Hagar were cast out in the 1st century AD:

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

This is true, but they were cast out of the kingdom. When Paul wrote, they were already cast out/cut off, nobody had to wait for Jerusalem to be destroyed.

Any more silly questions???....

1900 yrs later, those who were cast out,....can still return and be part of the kingdom. Yes? (That is a question.)