Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

[abcdef]

Jerusalem was also in the "wilderness" (and still is) due to her apostasy AB, for killing the prophets and various other indictments, so this argument of yours holds no water.

Jerusalem is never, in the wilderness. But Israel was.

If this was written when Israel was in the wilderness, then that makes it written after 70 ad, in order for Israel to be in the wilderness.

The harlot mother is not Babylon as in the tower of babel, John is specifically equating apostate Israel with Babylon, Sodom and Egypt, because they had become all three (and still is).

John doesn't link Sodom and Egypt with Babylon, only with Jerusalem in Rev ch 11. Jerusalem is not referred to as Babylon in Rev ch 11.

it looks good and it is good - I haven't seen anyone successfully argue against it...

You have a short memory apparently.

 

[garee]

We are saved from the wrath to come on the last day. But not the wrath that governs this world. It has been revealed from the day he corrupted this creation. “You shall not die”

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

unrighteousness;= self service, self righteous.

Because there is sin and he sends a strong delusion to believe the lie his wrath remains .It can increase as in the trouble of Jacob .But that trouble is not the final wrath that will come on the last day (the great and terrible day)

As long as he is sending sending strong delusion to believe the lie his wrath remains.

Every time we do sin we exchange the truth of God for a lie, it’s called self-serving

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Rom 1:24

He must increase we must decrease.

 

[Locutus]

Jerusalem is never, in the wilderness. But Israel was.

If this was written when Israel was in the wilderness, then that makes it written after 70 ad, in order for Israel to be in the wilderness.

John doesn't link Sodom and Egypt with Babylon, only with Jerusalem in Rev ch 11. Jerusalem is not referred to as Babylon in Rev ch 11.

You have a short memory apparently.

No short memory here AB - look at what John says:

Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Read up on the song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32:1-43 and ask yourself why they are singing the song about Israel, when according to your view the Roman empire is being judged in John's revelation.

 

[abcdef]

No short memory here AB - look at what John says:

Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Read up on the song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32:1-43 and ask yourself why they are singing the song about Israel, when according to your view the Roman empire is being judged in John's revelation.

The 6th seal, the fall of Jerusalem.

The 7th trumpet, the fall of Jerusalem.

The 7th vial, the fall of Jerusalem.

The fire from heaven, Rev 20, the fall of Jerusalem.

I agree.

The fall of Jerusalem of the 6th seal is 70 ad.

But the other examples, show a time after Jerusalem is restored to Israel, after the times of the gentiles is over.

And certain events associated with the 7th trumpet, 7th vial, and Rev 20 falls, cannot be explained by the 70 ad 'ers.

Such as the resurrection where the enemies see them called up to heaven at the 7 trumpet, after lying dead for 3 1/2 days.

 

[Locutus]

Of course the events of Rev 20 can be attributed to the 1st century AB:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Paul clearly stated that the above judgment related to the old covenant era was about to happen in his day:

Acts 24:15 (Young's Literal) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

So if Paul stated the rising was in his generation this means that all of the events surrounding this also were in his generation.

Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Notice how Jesus focuses on "this generation", the generation that heard him - he is not saying all generations since then until "the end" will rise up with them, he's placing them in the about to be rising which Paul spoke of in Acts 24:15.

 

[PlainWord]

The 6th seal, the fall of Jerusalem.

The 7th trumpet, the fall of Jerusalem.

The 7th vial, the fall of Jerusalem.

The fire from heaven, Rev 20, the fall of Jerusalem.

I agree.

The fall of Jerusalem of the 6th seal is 70 ad.

But the other examples, show a time after Jerusalem is restored to Israel, after the times of the gentiles is over.

And certain events associated with the 7th trumpet, 7th vial, and Rev 20 falls, cannot be explained by the 70 ad 'ers.

Such as the resurrection where the enemies see them called up to heaven at the 7 trumpet, after lying dead for 3 1/2 days.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Where do you find Jerusalem being restored to Israel after the times of the gentiles is over? I see Jerusalem being trampled until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled. From this passage it appears that the Gentiles will trample Jerusalem and kill Jews with a sword and lead them away captive until they are done destroying the city, stone by stone. All of this is 1st century.

Look at the 7th vial again:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” [SUP]18 [/SUP]And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

All of this happened to Jerusalem during 70 AD. Josephus records a huge earthquake. He records Jerusalem being divided into three parts. He records white catapult stones weighing a talent. Again, "the earth" was Israel. Notice that men still blasphemed God? Thus, the world didn't end.

 

[abcdef]

Of course the events of Rev 20 can be attributed to the 1st century AB:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Paul clearly stated that the above judgment related to the old covenant era was about to happen in his day:

Acts 24:15 (Young's Literal) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

So if Paul stated the rising was in his generation this means that all of the events surrounding this also were in his generation.

Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Notice how Jesus focuses on "this generation", the generation that heard him - he is not saying all generations since then until "the end" will rise up with them, he's placing them in the about to be rising which Paul spoke of in Acts 24:15.

Brother Locutus,

Please explain how it is, at the 7th trumpet, that the witnesses stand on their feet, in the presence of their enemies, are caught up, and their enemies beheld them. Rv 11:11-12

(This thread is about the chs 4-11, but I'll try to explain on the mill thread soon)

 

[abcdef]

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Where do you find Jerusalem being restored to Israel after the times of the gentiles is over? I see Jerusalem being trampled until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled. From this passage it appears that the Gentiles will trample Jerusalem and kill Jews with a sword and lead them away captive until they are done destroying the city, stone by stone. All of this is 1st century.

The times of the gentiles (ToG's), didn't end when Jerusalem fell in 70 ad.

The city continued to be ruled and trampled by the iron/clay, 4th beast, gentile nations long after 70 ad.

What is it, that makes you stop the ToG's at 70 ad? It continued.

Look at the 7th vial again:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” [SUP]18 [/SUP]And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

All of this happened to Jerusalem during 70 AD. Josephus records a huge earthquake. He records Jerusalem being divided into three parts. He records white catapult stones weighing a talent. Again, "the earth" was Israel. Notice that men still blasphemed God? Thus, the world didn't end.

If this was all there was to it, just these verses, I would agree.

But there are 6 other vials, and other items to consider in the time line.

If the wrath of God is filled up, can there be any more wrath, for anybody? Romans? Unbelievers? Antichrists?

And the 5th vial, where is the seat of the beast? How is it, that it is not in darkness, but then is? What is the role of that event, in the dest of Jeru, if this is 70 ad?

You see that there are many problems to be worked out. But as far as I can tell, it won't fit the 70 ad timeline.

 

[abcdef]

Again, "the earth" was Israel.

This is another problem, the "earth" isn't always Israel.

Sometimes it is the element earth (creation), or section of creation earth Rev 14:7. Heaven, earth, seas, fountains.

And in respect To Israel, there was a time before Jacob, before Israel? Who was the "earth" then?

The peoples/gentiles before Jacob, weren't they the earth also?

 

[Locutus]

Brother Locutus,

Please explain how it is, at the 7th trumpet, that the witnesses stand on their feet, in the presence of their enemies, are caught up, and their enemies beheld them. Rv 11:11-12

(This thread is about the chs 4-11, but I'll try to explain on the mill thread soon)

I wasn't there in the 1st century AD, that said there is no need to explain it I just accept what John said at the beginning and end of his revelation:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

I don't need to explain every jot and tittle to accept that the events in John's revelation were all 1st century AD events.

You are the one that is denying what Jesus and John stated and have not yet established how the events in the book were to come to pass "longly" rather than shortly....

 

[abcdef]

I wasn't there in the 1st century AD, that said there is no need to explain it I just accept what John said at the beginning and end of his revelation:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to show unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

I don't need to explain every jot and tittle to accept that the events in John's revelation were all 1st century AD events.

You are the one that is denying what Jesus and John stated and have not yet established how the events in the book were to come to pass "longly" rather than shortly....

As RR said, "Well here we go again."

You do have a short memory to keep coming to these "taken out of context" verses.

Things, past, present, and future are shown to John, it doesn't say that everything that is shown MUST be done by 70 ad.

That is something that you want, but cannot prove.
===

You say, "This is not so," but cannot explain the meanings of the symbols to prove your point.

And, you can not explain why, the 7th trumpet is past. 70 ad.

Get to work and do some studying and come up with some answers, Bro!

 

[Locutus]

You do have a short memory to keep coming to these "taken out of context" verses.

Nothing out of context in what I post AB

Things, past, present, and future are shown to John, it doesn't say that everything that is shown MUST be done by 70 ad.

That is something that you want, but cannot prove.

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Trying to stretch hereafter to 1970 years and counting is plainly wrong - this is you using the above totally out of context when John stated shortly, the hereafter is included in his "shortly".

Try using a more literal translation such as Young's and you will stop making bogus claims and statements:

Rev 1:19 (Young's) 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things.

There's that pesky "about to" that makes all of your imaginings fail.....

 

[abcdef]

Nothing out of context in what I post AB



Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Trying to stretch hereafter to 1970 years and counting is plainly wrong - this is you using the above totally out of context when John stated shortly, the hereafter is included in his "shortly".

Try using a more literal translation such as Young's and you will stop making bogus claims and statements:

Rev 1:19 (Young's) 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things.

There's that pesky "about to" that makes all of your imaginings fail.....

But see, you want that to say,"Everything that will be hereafter, or about to come, will be finished by 70 ad," But it NEVER says that.

The 1st 4 trumpets were the things that come right away, after the dest of Jeru at the 6th seal.

 

[Locutus]

"about to be" can't be made to mean 1970 years and counting later AB or language means nothing - this is your problem, bending words and statements to suit your "theology".

If I'm about to serve a 3 course meal you ain't gonna get dessert next week are ya...

 

[crossnote]

In context the 'wrath to come' deals eschatologically ON THIS EARTH...

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
(1Th 5:3-10)

 

[abcdef]

"about to be" can't be made to mean 1970 years and counting later AB or language means nothing - this is your problem, bending words and statements to suit your "theology".

If I'm about to serve a 3 course meal you ain't gonna get dessert next week are ya...

It's the beginning of those things, the trumpets.

How long does it take for the 7 trumpets to blow from the 1st 4, until the last/7th trumpet?

You might say, "8 years"? I'm guessing. So how long of a period it, for the 7 trumpets to blow?

When do they begin to blow, what date approx?

----

What are the four trumpets?

How does what is described, affect men and what is the meaning of the symbols?

---

Brother Locutus,

I admire you greatly for understanding that the descriptions of the fall of Jeru in 70 ad is in Matt 24, Mk 13, etc., and much of the remarks of the letters by the apostles and others.

But the "wrath" (God's withdrawing of blessings on the natural branches), didn't end, at the dest of Jerusalem, it continued.

The wrath was delivered primarily by the iron Romans and clay. Daniel 2.

This is what is meant, that you maybe missing, that these things about to happen, are the beginnings, of those things.

 

[abcdef]

In context the 'wrath to come' deals eschatologically ON THIS EARTH...

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

The destruction of Jerusalem.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
(1Th 5:3-10)

We are not appointed to suffer the 2nd/eternal death, we have an appointment with salvation.

But when the enemy comes (Rome), everyone suffers or dies, in this world.

The last sentence in the text is not about the wrath of the dest of Jeru in 70 ad. and the trib/troubles,

Unless you want to beam over to the Locutus ship.

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

The times of the gentiles (ToG's), didn't end when Jerusalem fell in 70 ad.

The city continued to be ruled and trampled by the iron/clay, 4th beast, gentile nations long after 70 ad.

What is it, that makes you stop the ToG's at 70 ad? It continued.

The ToG's were the Roman forces in 67-70 AD. These forces were comprised of Romans, of Syrian and other foreigners who made up their legions from the north, east and south. When Jerusalem fell in late 70 AD, Titus ordered that the entire city be completely dismantled, stone-by-stone. Sound familiar? Thus there was no city left for the Gentiles to trample after 70 AD. It wasn't rebuilt until much later. As recorded by Josephus, if you had been to Jerusalem, left, then returned after this dismantling (desolation), you would not even know you were standing where Jerusalem once stood. It had become a complete wilderness.

The Luke 21 passage I cited earlier goes with the Rev 11 passage:

Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood,saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. [SUP]2 [/SUP]But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

TREAD = TRAMPLE

Thus the ToG lasts just 42 months, the exact amount of time from when Rome first surrounded Jerusalem until the city was destroyed.

 

[PlainWord]

The destruction of Jerusalem.




We are not appointed to suffer the 2nd/eternal death, we have an appointment with salvation.

But when the enemy comes (Rome), everyone suffers or dies, in this world.

The last sentence in the text is not about the wrath of the dest of Jeru in 70 ad. and the trib/troubles,

Unless you want to beam over to the Locutus ship.

Locutus is on the correct ship. You are in a barrel heading for Niagara.

 

[Locutus]

AB's on a sailing ship to nowhere leaving any place....