Salvation is for the Whole World

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Jun 20, 2022
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The natural people's faith is in mankind, and their accomplishments, Spiritual faith comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
Paul said because humanity can look at things God created and can reason God exists is partially one way during Judgement God can say to them you knew I was real but chose to spread lies that I never existed.

So if the NATURAL MAN is able to look at creation and reason God is real, then your entire reasoning about natural man unable to know that God exists or whatever is full of ....

Ha, I knew you were peddling horse turds.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Faith is a human construct. At its basic root is trust, in something or someone. Faith in and of itself has merit only if the object of that faith proves to be trustworthy. Its efficacy is in the object or target of ones faith, not in the faith itself. Faith in Scripture is portrayed as being powerful even in small quantities, if that faith is directed towards Jesus.

So, to me there is faith everywhere, even atheists have faith in their logic. It is when our faith (trust) is genuine and directed towards God that the Holy Spirit turns our mere ascent into saving faith, and we are eternally changed.
I mean TBH, this is mostly word salad.
Obviously we’re referring to saving Faith in Christ.

This Faith is internal to the believer, activated by the hearing of the Word.

So where does that Faith come from?
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
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I mean TBH, this is mostly word salad.
Obviously we’re referring to saving Faith in Christ.

This Faith is internal to the believer, activated by the hearing of the Word.

So where does that Faith come from?
God gives man the ability to believe in Him. When he exercises that gift, he is saved.
 

Sipsey

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Sep 27, 2018
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Probably shouldn't have said "exercises." We're not allowed to exercise anything; too much like works.
I would say that the majority of human exercise I see falls into the category of Futility, work actually accomplishes things. But, here again, lacking a definitive consensus on definitions, we are like canines in pursuit of tails.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
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Probably shouldn't have said "exercises." We're not allowed to exercise anything; too much like works.
Seems we have a failure to communicate. Few can agree on the definition of works, therefore, no work can be done because we can’t even agree what it is.
 

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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I read my Bible this morning; probably shouldn't have though 'cause it's working to earn salvation.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Romans 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
No, it is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, which law, Christ alone brought forth and satisfied. Notice it was that law itself that made Paul free, not by anything that Paul did.

[Rom 8:1-2 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

True belief comes as a gift, otherwise to acquire belief becomes a law

[Rom 10:4 KJV]
4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 4- What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]
The 'him" in verse 3 is God, not Abraham.

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
No not "their faith" - "his faith" : Christ's faith. Only Christ's faith is righteous.

[Rom 4:5 KJV]
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Romans 4 -13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
Christ's faith. Any righteousness is in relation to faith is Christ's faith, not ours. Otherwise, it couldn't be by grace. Only Christ's
faith was righteous.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Gal 2: 16- know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[a] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
No, is justified by the "faith of Christ. g2424 ("Christ") below is genitive, demonstrating ownership: Christ's faith. Faith in Christ
is a possible translation of your first 'faith in Christ", if the "faith in" represents a faith that is within Christ, not towards Christ.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing[G1492] that[G3754] a man[G444] is[G1344][G0] not[G3756] justified[G1344] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law,[G3551] but[G3362] by[G1223] the faith[G4102] of Jesus[G2424] Christ,[G5547] even[G2532] we[G2249] have believed[G4100] in[G1519] Jesus[G2424] Christ,[G5547] that[G2443] we might be justified[G1344] by[G1537] the faith[G4102] of Christ,[G5547] and[G2532] not[G3756] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law:[G3551] for[G1360] by[G1537] the works[G2041] of the law[G3551] shall[G1344][G0] no[G3756][G3956] flesh[G4561] be justified.[G1344]

4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Spiritual hearing - Christ's faith(fulness).

8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Faith is not a work!
Those who rely on Christ's faith(fulness), not theirs - justification is solely by grace through Christ's faith.

Faith is not a work only if it is given solely as a gift. If we believe in a faith manufactured of ourselves, then it is a work and not only a
work but not a true faith: that which one believes to have brought his faith is that which his faith is in.

[Rom 3:24 KJV] 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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You asked me to explain what I wrote. I did. If you are trying to inform my understanding, you are free to try. But if you only use those verses which buttress your position and ignore others that cause it to be more widely understood, you will have done us both a disservice.
Either way, I will enjoy the scriptures you proffer.
Well, okay, so if you want to reply with the verses you mention above, I will try to refute them. If you'd rather not,
we can reengage when, and if, either of our understanding changes.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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Yes. We have been over this. The "that" in the passage UNQUESTIONABLY is referring to the faith as the gift. That is why this question of WHERE your faith comes from is so vital.
You have yet to address the point that "Grace" does NOT need a qualifier of being labeled a gift, as the word ITSELF means that it is an unmerited gift.

I absolutely agree. But if you are being "persuaded" of something, you are using your intellect.

So for the umpteenth time, WHY were YOU persuaded, yet others who heard the word weren't?


Yes! Born again Children actually. Tell me what you did to facilitate your physical birth? Nothing! So why do you think you did ANYTHING to facilitate your Spiritual birth?

Faith is UNQUESTIONABLY a gift of God, but I'm not going to question HIs Motives, or use my human logic and intellect to answer matters that should be left to Him. In my human mind, I can say things like "God is not fair!" The Book of Job is full of that stuff. Till God showed up. Then ALL mouths were silent.

I just know from the Word, AND from personal experience, that there was no way I was coming to God without the faith He provided me. I was on a course for destruction until He drew me, I heard the Gospel, and believed. As a Child would. I KNEW it was true. There was no persuasion. I just KNEW it was true.

Okay, here I am trying harder, I am not a fan of long posts ...but the coffee is helping!!

Yes, babies do help in their physical births.

With regards to "faith" being part of the gift in Ephesians, I think the Greek grammar is fairly strong that the gift is salvation by grace. To state grace is a gift it redunant and just states the obvious.

If your personal experience, which is subjective, is the tool being used for understanding/interpret scripture there is no way for me to counter a personal experience. They may be true to you but they are still wholly subjective.

Human faith is a normal part of our being, If you are married you placed your faith in your wife correct?

Faith is not "poof"

I think the core of the problem is that you believe, like many on this thread a person cannot be persuaded that the Gospel is true because we have no ability to respond. This is false.

I believe scripture is clear that faith is required from us and even in a fallen state the searching heart can be persuaded of the truth of the Gospel, heart and soul.

Faith is the only human attribute in the Bible which is mandated in order to please God the Father as seen in Hebrews 11:6, which states:

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”
Hebrews 11:6

This is so evident from start to finish in the Bible I just do not understand how it can even be disputed.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Faith is not a work only if it is given solely as a gift. If we believe in a faith manufactured of ourselves, then it is a work
and not only a work but not a true faith: that which one believes to have brought his faith is that which his faith is in.
I do not believe I have ever seen anyone say they manufactured their own faith.

What does that even mean? I acknowledge faith as a gift. Not something that
was forced on me, nor something I manufactured magically out of my unbelief.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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I do not believe I have ever seen anyone say they manufactured their own faith.

What does that even mean? I acknowledge faith as a gift. Not something that
was forced on me, nor something I manufactured magically out of my unbelief.
Well, if it is not as a gift, then from where/how does it come?
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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I would say that the majority of human exercise I see falls into the category of Futility, work actually accomplishes things. But, here again, lacking a definitive consensus on definitions, we are like canines in pursuit of tails.
Yes this is a big chunk of the problem.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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Faith is not a work only if it is given solely as a gift. If we believe in a faith manufactured of ourselves, then it is a work and not only a
work but not a true faith: that which one believes to have brought his faith is that which his faith is in.
Show me one place in scripture where faith is a work?

If God does not define as a work then it is not a work.

"manufacture" always the pejorative.

Yes you know what, we have faith in people and and things all day long. It is part of being human.

Waiting for my red x, :p:D
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Show me one place in scripture where faith is a work?

If God does not define as a work then it is not a work.

"manufacture" always the pejorative.

Yes you know what, we have faith in people and and things all day long. It is part of being human.

Waiting for my red x, :p:D
[Jhn 6:29 KJV] 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Per the above, faith is a work and is solely God's work that one believes.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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[Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
And?

What is the point of your talking to me as if I said or believe something
I do not believe and have not said, and even said otherwise?
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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The natural man (1 Cor 2:14), at the time that God, by his sovereign grace, quickens him to the new spiritual life, is spiritually dead in his sins, unable to respond to spiritual things (Eph 2:1).

Spiritual responses, such as believing, receiving, confessing, praying, accepting, etc only comes from those that have been born again

I know you really, really, really like to post this verse. :);)

Can we agree that this verse needs to be understood first within the context of the audience, to whom it was written, that is the church at Corinth?