Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[LT]

Catholicism is faith + works, yet it is rare to see a devoted Catholic (at least it is here on the east coast, where everyone is a "Catholic", yet so few have ever opened a Bible, or even restrain themselves from going out to bars and clubs).

Having a faith + works doctrine doesn't solve the issue of people "praising God with their lips, yet continuing in sin".

 

[kennethcadwell]

LT did I just see that right you said James is not about salvation....

It is clearly tied to salvation.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James shows that they go hand and hand. If you don't have the works ( believing in Jesus as Lord as Savior and everything He said ) your faith is dead.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LT did I just see that right you said James is not about salvation....

It is clearly tied to salvation.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James shows that they go hand and hand. If you don't have the works ( believing in Jesus as Lord as Savior and everything He said ) your faith is dead.

and if your faith is dead. Your just as saved as the demons, who also believe.

But to use this to say one can lose salvation would be a false assumption. as it would be taking james out of context.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Sorry but I was in a Catholic church for 5 years and they never did teach works, they were scripted on what they preached. I questioned my pastor on this and he told me the arch-diocese told him what he could say and couldn't say. It was very vanilla preaching. The classes just taught mainly history.

Catholicism is faith + works, yet it is rare to see a devoted Catholic (at least it is here on the east coast, where everyone is a "Catholic", yet so few have ever opened a Bible, or even restrain themselves from going out to bars and clubs).

Having a faith + works doctrine doesn't solve the issue of people "praising God with their lips, yet continuing in sin".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Catholicism is faith + works, yet it is rare to see a devoted Catholic (at least it is here on the east coast, where everyone is a "Catholic", yet so few have ever opened a Bible, or even restrain themselves from going out to bars and clubs).

Having a faith + works doctrine doesn't solve the issue of people "praising God with their lips, yet continuing in sin".

lol. most catholics I know are more sinful than people who do not even believe in God.

It is quite amazing. I guess when you have differing levels of sin, and as long as you stay away from the mortal sins, your ok. You do not have to worry about sin.

 

[LT]

And is our faith always alive?

As Christians, even we need to ask forgiveness from our Lord when we do good things with the wrong motives, or when we begin to worry about our bills or work/relationship situations without being in constant prayer.

Are you assuming that dead faith means the same thing as faithless? certainly not. It means 'not bearing fruit'. Surely we sometimes feel dry and stagnant, but Christ breathes new life into these dry bones when we become weary in well doing, or even when we have become distracted or selfish.

Our walk is a daily renewal.

 

[SeaBass]

No. Because this person never had faith in Christ, Never repented or admitted he was a sinner and in danger of eternal death based on what God has said.

This person turns the grace of God to licentiousness. And Jude responds to this quite well.

Jude 1
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into liscentiousness and deny the only Lord God[SUP][b][/SUP] and our Lord Jesus Christ.

So you are basing one's salvation upon the works he does.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you are basing one's salvation upon the works he does.

No based on if he has faith in God. or faith in self.

Your teaching faith in self (works) . They (the liscentious) teach faith in self (I do not have to stop sin).

Your both on the wrong side of the cross.

 

[kennethcadwell]

James is a book about conviction. He uses a lot of illustrations in what he says to warn others how not to walk, and if you do any of the things he says making it your main focus then like he said your faith becomes dead, useless, deceivers of self and others.

and if your faith is dead. Your just as saved as the demons, who also believe.

But to use this to say one can lose salvation would be a false assumption. as it would be taking james out of context.

 

[LT]

So you are basing one's salvation upon the works he does.

nope. just that works are a sign of faith

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And is our faith always alive?

As Christians, even we need to ask forgiveness from our Lord when we do good things with the wrong motives, or when we begin to worry about our bills or work/relationship situations without being in constant prayer.

Are you assuming that dead faith means the same thing as faithless? certainly not. It means 'not bearing fruit'. Surely we sometimes feel dry and stagnant, but Christ breathes new life into these dry bones when we become weary in well doing, or even when we have become distracted or selfish.

Our walk is a daily renewal.

hey bro, welcome back.

I have to disagree with you here, based on this

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

the first 2 chapters is written to tell us to test our faith. and to trust God. I agree. But part of that testing of our faith would be to test if we ever had saving faith to begin with.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

James is a book about conviction. He uses a lot of illustrations in what he says to warn others how not to walk, and if you do any of the things he says making it your main focus then like he said your faith becomes dead, useless, deceivers of self and others.

He does not say one can lose salvation.

He plainly says your faith was dead.

Can your faith save you if it was dead?

 

[LT]

James is a book about conviction. He uses a lot of illustrations in what he says to warn others how not to walk, and if you do any of the things he says making it your main focus then like he said your faith becomes dead, useless, deceivers of self and others.

*choking on meat* James is tough for us all. It is very convicting to even the strongest believers (of whom I am not)

the Gospel of salvation is simple enough for a child to grasp, and powerful enough to save the worst of sinners: Christ died for our sin, and rose from the dean, and faith and trust in this is salvation.

once saved, then we will eventually need the meat, which is more than just salvation, but sanctification. Sanctification is by the Spirit, which bears fruit within us, because we are in the vine of Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

Again

your missing the point.

Paul is talking to people like you. trying to add works to the gospel of grace. He uses abraham to prove we are saved by faith apart from ANY WORK

James is talking to licentious people who have crept in, Who are hearers but not doers. Who claim to have faith, but have lied to themselves. because if they DID HAVE FAITH, They would be like abraham, And do works.

He is not contradicting paul. He agrees with paul

Paul said in eph 2 we are saved by faith. and those who are saved WILL WORK.

James is telling you and I, If we claim we have faith, but do not have the work EVERYONE SAVED BY FAITH WILL HAVE (eph 2: 10) then our faith is DEAD, NON EXISTANT/

You avoided that both James and Paul were talking about Abraham.

James said justified by works
Paul said not justified by works

How can they say opposite things when talking about Abraham?

Because they are not talking about the same kind of works. James plainly says Abraham was justified by works where Paul says Abraham was not one who worked to try and earn salvation, that is, to make his reward of debt and not of grace.


You say those that are saved WILL WORK.

That's because maintaining salvation is CONDITIONAL upon those works.

If you say "no" then you are making those works optional.

So are the works a Christian does optional or mandatory?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

*choking on meat*

the Gospel of salvation is simple enough for a child to grasp, and powerful enough to save the worst of sinners: Christ died for our sin, and rose from the dean, and faith and trust in this is salvation.

once saved, then we will eventually need the meat, which is more than just salvation, but sanctification. Sanctification is by the Spirit, which bears fruit within us, because we are in the vine of Christ.

lol. there is a reason paul had to feed the corinthian church formula and not meat.. Amen and Amen

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You avoided that both James and Paul were talking about Abraham.

James said justified by works
Paul said not justified by works

How can they say opposite things when talking about Abraham?

Because they are not talking about the same kind of works. James plainly says Abraham was justified by works where Paul says Abraham was not one who worked to try and earn salvation, that is, to make his reward of debt and not of grace.


You say those that are saved WILL WORK.

That's because maintaining salvation is CONDITIONAL upon those works.

If you say "no" then you are making those works optional.

So are the works a Christian does optional or mandatory?

good buy.

There is no reasoning with you. you do not listen to what ANYONE says, you TWIST their words. You IGNORE what they say.

It is obvious you are not in a bible discussion forum to discuss the bible. but to push your agenda.

 

[SeaBass]

Your adding work.

Again, Belief minus work is belief and nothing else. which is belief only.

there is a difference between the word dollar. and the words dollar alone also.

but if I tell you I have a dollar. and nothing else. your not going to keep asking if I have anly other money, your going to know. I only have a dollar alone.

Come on man, you can not be that ignorant can you?

I do not have to add the word alone to ANY of those passages. It says belief, thats it. thats all I need to know

Belief is a work, Jn 6:27-29.

Since the bible says repentance saves, confession saves and baptism saves, and there is just ONE way to be saved, the logically belief includes repentance confession and baptism. So ALL the belief only in the universe can NEVER save one who is impenitent, denies Christ and lost in his unremitted/unforgiven sins.

 

[LT]

hey bro, welcome back.

I have to disagree with you here, based on this

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

the first 2 chapters is written to tell us to test our faith. and to trust God. I agree. But part of that testing of our faith would be to test if we ever had saving faith to begin with.

Thanks EG. Glad to be back, and joyful to have all of you around to check me when I am off-base in my thoughts and words.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thanks EG. Glad to be back, and joyful to have all of you around to check me when I am off-base in my thoughts and words.

iron sharpens iron. I am glad to have you all around to keep me honest myself

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes but they go hand and hand....if you do not follow by these standards of the meat in the word then this is where the falling away starts..yes you can then repent and come back to Christ, but not all will repent..this is evident in the scriptures.

Plus if you continue in this dead, useless faith you become deceivers like it says hindering others from their salvation by teaching false doctrine. Which in turn by staying on this path you hinder yourself as well.

*choking on meat* James is tough for us all. It is very convicting to even the strongest believer (of whom I am not)

the Gospel of salvation is simple enough for a child to grasp, and powerful enough to save the worst of sinners: Christ died for our sin, and rose from the dean, and faith and trust in this is salvation.

once saved, then we will eventually need the meat, which is more than just salvation, but sanctification. Sanctification is by the Spirit, which bears fruit within us, because we are in the vine of Christ.