Salvation Not Possible Without Works

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Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
1,039
7
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Jabberjaw said:
Matthew 16:18 (NKJV)
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

At what point between "I will build My church" and the end of this verse did he build his church (making it present tense?)
Does it matter?
Yes, when one claims the church in Mat. 16:18 is in present tense, and it is not, it matters.

All people from adam until the last person who ever comes to God in his salvation, will have been saved the same way.
It is called obedience, no matter the dispensation.
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
113
63
So is your position that AFTER one becomesa Christain he does not have to do any works at all, no good works Eph 2:10, no walking in the light, 1 Jn 1:7?

My position is that after a person gets saved and becomes a Christian, he should do good works and he should walk in the light, and he should walk sanctified and holy.

But his salvation is not based on whether or not he does those things; but rather his salvation is totally and completely based on the atoning sacrifice and work which the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross of Calvary. Christ said it is finished. His blood atonement is what paid for our sins.

He purchased our eternal redemption with His precious blood (Acts 20:28; Eph. 1:7; & Col. 1:14).


If a Christian sees a fellow Christian in great need, he does not have to do good works to help his fellow Christian and still be saved? (see Matt 25:32ff before answering )

Well if a Christian sees another Christian in need; and he is able to help that Christian who is in great need, well then he should help him out. But even if he decides not to help him out; that Christian is still saved. Why? Because his salvation is not dependent upon his good works. He may be required to answer for it at the Judgment Seat of Christ, But he is not going to lose his salvation.


Also lets have a look at Matthew 25:32:



Matthew 25:32 KJV
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:


This Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats is NOT the Judgment Seat of Christ.

The Judgment Seat of Christ takes place after the Rapture of the Body of Christ. And it is a Judgment that only Christians will be present at. And the nature of this judgment is to try ever Christian's work by fire to see what sort it is (1 Cor. 3:11-15). This is to determine the level of reward and Millennial inheritance each Christian will be given. Most likely; there will be some Christians who have no reward and no millennial inheritance.


The Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46 will take place at Christ's Second Advent where He comes back to the earth to judge the Gentile nations and to set up His Millennial Kingdom.

At the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats; both saved and lost people are present. The nature of this judgment is to determine who gets to enter into Christ's Millennial Kingdom for the 1,000 year Reign of the Lord Jesus Christ. The test and criteria for a Gentile getting to enter into the Millennial Kingdom is whether or not he helped and took care of Christ's brethren; the Jews, during the time of Jacob's trouble (7 year tribulation period).
 
H

haz

Guest
The works that shows our faith is to believe on Jesus.

Jesus was asked what works we should do. He answered that we are to believe on him, John 6:29.

When we believe on Jesus, we obey God's will, John 6:40.

we "overcome" when we believe on Jesus, 1John 5:5

we're "born of God" when we believe on Jesus, 1John 1:5

We have "everlasting life" when we believe on Jesus, John 3:16.

Clearly our works are to believe on Jesus.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes, when one claims the church in Mat. 16:18 is in present tense, and it is not, it matters.

It does?? Thats funny, Israej was called the church in the OT. Do you even know what the church "Ekklesia" means??



It is called obedience, no matter the dispensation.
Well then what was the law given for. The law shows we CAN NOT BE Obedient. Ond why did Christ even come. Seems he suffered all that for nothing. If we could be obedient enough to save ourselves. Why come at all??

Abraham was saved by faith. No obedience. As are we. But hey, feel free to add to the redemption in which CHrist said he paid in full
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,661
6,853
113
Matthew 16:18 (NKJV)
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

At what point between "I will build My church" and the end of this verse did he build his church (making it present tense?)
From the VERY MOMENT Jesus chose the disciples..............HE ESTABLISHED HIS CHURCH......goodness.....sigh
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
Law and Prophets till John-->Luke 16:16

Church in Present Tense...
Matthew 16:18
Matthew 18:17 x two
If the thief went to Abraham's Bosom (called Paradise), where He was resurrected with the righteous ones of the Law, was he not under the Old Testament, seeing that one's Covenant is of no force until they die?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,570
9,090
113
If the thief went to Abraham's Bosom (called Paradise), where He was resurrected with the righteous ones of the Law, was he not under the Old Testament, seeing that one's Covenant is of no force until they die?
I don't get this old covenant talk. There is only one covenant. The animal sacrifices for sin were a foreshadowing of Jesus. They couldn't give anybody eternal Salvation. EVERYONE who is saved, is so by the blood of Jesus! Not the blood of bulls and rams. They were for TEMPORARY atonement of sins.
 
P

paulsfam4

Guest
faith and works! If you know that Jesus went to the cross and rose again so we MAY live....May is used several different times in the bible or MIGHT is another that is used! ,this is where works come in! what are works a Job ? no, works are living the way the word of God tells us to live so if you claim to be a Christian yet still living a sinful life and desires there is no works in your FAITH! WORKS: living daily the way Word of God tells us.. Works equals actions do we have Godly actions or sinful ? Do we love someone that does us wrong or hold anger at them, Is our actions inline with GODS WORDS! And our FAITH
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
I don't get this old covenant talk. There is only one covenant. The animal sacrifices for sin were a foreshadowing of Jesus. They couldn't give anybody eternal Salvation. EVERYONE who is saved, is so by the blood of Jesus! Not the blood of bulls and rams. They were for TEMPORARY atonement of sins.
I agree with what you say in that they were TEMPORARY atonement for sins. As pertaining to the Covenants, one were of Law and the other of faith.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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Food for thought. Faith is aways accompanied with works, but works alone isn't from faith. Faith is a gift of the Spirit of God, and is also an attribute of the fruit of the spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
Galatians 5:22-23 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

James 2:20-26 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.​

 
Mar 4, 2013
7,761
107
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I don't get this old covenant talk. There is only one covenant. The animal sacrifices for sin were a foreshadowing of Jesus. They couldn't give anybody eternal Salvation. EVERYONE who is saved, is so by the blood of Jesus! Not the blood of bulls and rams. They were for TEMPORARY atonement of sins.
The new covenant doesn't negate the spiritual aspects of the old. It confirms them by the Spirit. The physical aspects is what has changed in the perception that the Holy Spirit gives to us like the gift of discernment. This is the new covenant through Christ Jesus ascending to to heaven to give us the Spirit at Pentecost. That Pentecost day is the very same day Moses was called up the mountain to receive the stone tablets. Not by coincidence.

1 Corinthians 12:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
 
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A

Alligator

Guest
It is amazing the excuses people will make to twist the word of God to fit their belief.

The pharisees were masters of this, I see they are still among us!
Matthew 16:18 (NKJV)
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

At what point between "I will build My church" and the end of this verse did he build his church (making it present tense?)
J
From the VERY MOMENT Jesus chose the disciples..............HE ESTABLISHED HIS CHURCH......goodness.....sigh
The church was established on the day of Pentecost. In Mark 9-1 Jesus said the kingdom of God would come with power. Acts 1:8 indicates that the power came on the day of pentecost.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
J


The church was established on the day of Pentecost. In Mark 9-1 Jesus said the kingdom of God would come with power. Acts 1:8 indicates that the power came on the day of pentecost.
The church was started literally in Gen 3: 15 Since that time there has been a body of Christ.

each church went through new covenants. The age of grace started in Pentecost correct. But the church has ALWAYS been his children gathered together.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
From the VERY MOMENT Jesus chose the disciples..............HE ESTABLISHED HIS CHURCH......goodness.....sigh

Yes, He established this new covenant church by choosing 12 who would start this new body. The church started with their training.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
If the thief went to Abraham's Bosom (called Paradise), where He was resurrected with the righteous ones of the Law, was he not under the Old Testament, seeing that one's Covenant is of no force until they die?
when was their resurrection?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I don't get this old covenant talk. There is only one covenant. The animal sacrifices for sin were a foreshadowing of Jesus. They couldn't give anybody eternal Salvation. EVERYONE who is saved, is so by the blood of Jesus! Not the blood of bulls and rams. They were for TEMPORARY atonement of sins.

Yes, and when did the sacrifices start as this teaching tool? Was not Abel killed for giving this correct teaching tool. While God rejected human good of Cain?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
faith and works! If you know that Jesus went to the cross and rose again so we MAY live....May is used several different times in the bible or MIGHT is another that is used! ,this is where works come in! what are works a Job ? no, works are living the way the word of God tells us to live so if you claim to be a Christian yet still living a sinful life and desires there is no works in your FAITH! WORKS: living daily the way Word of God tells us.. Works equals actions do we have Godly actions or sinful ? Do we love someone that does us wrong or hold anger at them, Is our actions inline with GODS WORDS! And our FAITH
Here is the questions we should ask.

1. Can we (even when saved) do works under our own power?
2. Can we do works (even as a Christian) which appear good on the outside. But are done in sin?
3. What are those works? And since God has given each of us differing gifts. Would most of those works look different for every person?