Salvation Not Possible Without Works

SeaBass · Mar 20, 2014

So it is NOT possible for a man to NEVER do any works at anytime in his life yet still be saved.

ladylynn · Mar 20, 2014

When Jesus suffered and died on the cross, He took ALL of our sin, guilt, punishment and condemnation. Only HE could satisfy God's HOLY standard. Sin was "imputed" put on Jesus Christ. He "recieved" OUR punishment and God looked away from His Son for that moment in time. Jesus undid what the first Adam did to mankind. Jesus is called the Second Adam.

Because of what our wonderful Saviour Jesus did, righteousness is "imputed" put on to us when we "receive" HIS salvation. We are then righteous, completely loved and accepted before the Father. God sees the righteousness of His Son Jesus Christ not our prideful human righteousness...our sin was paid for in full by the perfect spotless Lamb of God. Many people call it the divine exchange. He took all our sin, we take all His righteousness. To try and do more for your salvation says what Jesus did is not enough.

Jesus said it is finished. Why not trust HIM and not your works? It was no small thing what Jesus did on the cross. We had death...now we have life. We had no guide or comforter, now we have the Holy Spirit living in us working out the will of God as He reveals the Word of God to our hearts and minds.

To try and live a christian life without this truth is like being in a boat with a giant hole. You will constantly be bailing water out every day of your life because you won't trust Jesus to do it for you. Jesus did for us what we could not do for ourselves. Not only in salvation but also in our santification. With men it is impossible but with JESUS all things are possible.

Knowing God loves you that much for reasons only HE knows will get you through life. Knowing who you are IN Christ. Our identity is found IN HIM not our works.

BenFTW · Mar 20, 2014

posthuman said:

James 2:14-26 - Faith Without Works is Dead? | Till He Comes

The link I have just provided will clear everything up for you, in regards to Paul and James. The works James was referring to have nothing to do with salvation and everything to do with rewards. When James says "Faith without works is dead"(useless) he is referring to a Christian judgement, that is based upon our works. This judgement in particular

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

King James Version (KJV)

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Why does he say "Faith without works is dead(useless)"? Because faith is useless for this judgement because works is determining how you will be rewarded, not faith. Salvation isn't at risk, rewards are.

You may wonder why I am referring to "dead" as "useless" and the site will explain. But even so, there is another verse that says "So a body without a spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead." Well, a body without a spirit is dead(useless) but the body still exists, it isnt non-existent. Same with faith, it still exists, however, it is useless for what James is referring to(determining of rewards). It isn't profitable (see verse James 2:14. What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?) See, the focus is not on salvation, but on profits or "how is it beneficial?"

SeaBass · Mar 20, 2014

ladylynn said:

hi,

So let's assume "Joe" became a Christian by faith alone, he did no works to BECOME a Christian.

Now that Joe IS a Christian, can Joe not do those good works God preordained Christians to walk in yet still be saved, EPh 2:10? Can Joe not be faithful unto death, Rev 2:10 and still be saved? Can Joe not keep Christs work and not overcome yet still somehow be saved, Rev 2:26? Can Joe not do the work of walking in the light, 1 Jn 1:7 thereby NOT have all his sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ , yet still be saved? Can Joe NOT work to provde for his own house, yet still be saved, 1 Tim 5:8?

SeaBass · Mar 20, 2014

BenFTW said:

I disagree. The works James speaks about JUSTIFY not about "rewards" at all.

The questions I have for you is the same one I have for "ladylynn":

So let's assume "Joe" became a Christian by faith alone, he did no works to BECOME a Christian.

Now that Joe IS a Christian, can Joe not do those good works God preordained Christians to walk in yet still be saved, EPh 2:10? Can Joe not be faithful unto death, Rev 2:10 and still be saved? Can Joe not keep Christ's works and not overcome yet still somehow be saved, Rev 2:26? Can Joe not do the work of walking in the light, 1 Jn 1:7 thereby NOT have all his sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ , yet still be saved? Can Joe NOT work to provde for his own house, yet still be saved, 1 Tim 5:8?

Dustoffmyfeet · Mar 20, 2014

SeaBass said:

So by getting a job I am demonstrating my faith and will be saved? What if I'm laid off or unemployed or worse, couldn't get a job to provide for my own house even if I wanted to?

See these things matter! Faith without works is indeed dead, so what work to be done is very important.

SeaBass · Mar 20, 2014

Dustoffmyfeet said:

If you become injured and cannot work, I assume you had disability insurance that will pay you to feed and clothe your family.

But let's assume one is heathly and can work. Can he be lazy and not work and thereby not provide for his famlly yet still be saved?

notuptome · Mar 20, 2014

SeaBass said:

You love to construct straw men. Believing, repenting and confessing are part of the response of the Holy Spirit convicting a man of sin. righteousness and judgment. Holy Spirit baptism follows the moment we yield ourselves to Christ and receive Him as our Savior. Water baptism follows later as a matter of obedience but is not in any way contributory to salvation.

In the abstract one could say yes. Salvation is in no way dependent upon mans works. As a practical matter if one is a genuine Christian one is so radically changed that he does not ever return to his old ways. When something as big as the devil is cast out of your life and something as big as God moves in you can never be the same.

It is not given to you to judge. Works are part of the sanctification process, a process we will be engaged in until we are glorified together with Christ.

I claim that works follow salvation because that is what the bible teaches.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

BenFTW · Mar 20, 2014

SeaBass said:

You should take the time to read the link I shared with him. However, I will post the bit that speaks about the word "justify" as we need to define terms.

James 2:21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Some critics look at this and see a contradiction in the Bible. Paul, in Romans 3-4 and in Galatians 2-3 holds up Abraham as the father of faith because he believed God and so was justified by his faith. He says that Abraham was justified by faith, apart from works! But James says exactly the opposite, that Abraham was justified by works.

To understand what is going on, you need to understand that Paul and James are talking about two completely different events in the life of Abraham. Paul, in saying that Abraham was justified by faith, refers to the events in Genesis 15 where God promises to Abraham that he will be the father of many nations and that the Messiah would come through Abraham. And we read in Genesis 15:6 that Abraham believed God and his faith was credited to him as righteousness. He was declared righteous in the sight of God. He was justified before God. And this is exactly what we read in Romans 4:3 and Galatians 3:6. How do we get eternal life? How are we justified? The same way Abraham was. By faith alone.

But James says that Abraham was justified by works. But do you notice when James says this happened? …when he offered Isaac his son on the altar. When was that? This was 15 years later in Genesis 22! Abraham was justified, or declared righteous by God in Genesis 15, but then he was also justified, or declared righteous again in Genesis 22. Only this second time, it was not by God, but by men

Paul hints at this second kind of justification in Romans 4:2.
Romans 4:2

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Anyways, you're invited to read the article I shared with him, its enlightening if you take the time to read it.

Dustoffmyfeet · Mar 20, 2014

SeaBass said:

What about if one can work, is not lazy, but there are no jobs for him in his country? This is not the work that demonstrates faith. It is the work of the Spirit we are to do that demonstrates faith. Love, peace, joy, mercy, these things of which has no law against it. What you describe is something that is first SEEN. How can it then be by faith if I know that if I work hard at a job I get paid a reward for it?

Delivery · Mar 20, 2014

SeaBass said:

In order for one to become a Christian, he MUST faithfully obey God in doing works of believing, Jn 8;24; repentance, Lk 13:3,5 confession, Matt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism, Mk 16:16.

Then upon becoming a Christian and remaining saved, the Christian MUST maintain an obedient faith, Rev 2:10, keeping Christ works Rev 2:26, continue walking in the light so all his sin can continually be cleansed, 1 Jn 1:7 and do good works that God pre-ordained Christians to wallk in, Eph 2:10, Matt 25:32ff

It therefore is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to do nothing his entire life and yet still be saved. No verse says "do nothing" to become a Christian and "do nothing" to remain a faithful Christian.

A thought:

1 Tim 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

If I had to go out and get a job to WORK in order to provide for those of my own house, else be a faithless infidel, does that secular WORK I am doing mean that I am trying to merit my salvation, ie, keep from being a lost, faithless infidel?

If eternal security were true, does that mean I do not have to work to provide for my house and can still be saved as a fatihless infidel?

So can anyone demonstrate how a man can never do ANY KIND of work his entire life yet still be saved?

Can you demonstrate how a person can have good works his whole life, faithfully provide for his household, do charity works, give to the poor, etc. but not have faith in Jesus, and still be saved?

PennEd · Mar 20, 2014

SeaBass said:

In order for one to become a Christian, he MUST faithfully obey God in doing works of believing, Jn 8;24; repentance, Lk 13:3,5 confession, Matt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism, Mk 16:16.

Then upon becoming a Christian and remaining saved, the Christian MUST maintain an obedient faith, Rev 2:10, keeping Christ works Rev 2:26, continue walking in the light so all his sin can continually be cleansed, 1 Jn 1:7 and do good works that God pre-ordained Christians to wallk in, Eph 2:10, Matt 25:32ff

It therefore is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to do nothing his entire life and yet still be saved. No verse says "do nothing" to become a Christian and "do nothing" to remain a faithful Christian.

A thought:

1 Tim 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

If I had to go out and get a job to WORK in order to provide for those of my own house, else be a faithless infidel, does that secular WORK I am doing mean that I am trying to merit my salvation, ie, keep from being a lost, faithless infidel?

If eternal security were true, does that mean I do not have to work to provide for my house and can still be saved as a fatihless infidel?

So can anyone demonstrate how a man can never do ANY KIND of work his entire life yet still be saved?

You have this terribly twisted. Works and a changed life are EVIDENCE of Salvation they cannot save you. You should do a study on the thief on the cross who admitted to living a sinful life and that his punishment was just. What "work" did he do? He confessed his sin. He accepted Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus then promised him he would be with Him in paradise.

ladylynn · Mar 20, 2014

SeaBass said:

Hi, I think you need to answer that question yourself. You already know Jesus died on the cross... That Adam's sin was "imputed" on all mankind.... Everyone who is born is born in sin because of Adam. Having done no good or bad thing it makes no difference we were all under the curse of Adam's sin.

God sent His Son into the world not to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved... The world was already condemned by Adam's sin. Judgment fell on all human kind (for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God) BUT Jesus became the Second Adam. Sin was "imputed" to Christ...
Righteousness was "imputed" on mankind for those who recieve His righteousness. Can we change our human condition since we are all in Adam? It took Jesus to change our status from sinners to saints. We were dead in trespasses and sins. Now we are alive in Him.

Jesus recieved OUR sin and paid for it. We recieve HIS righteousness and are new creations IN Christ. The divine exchange. Amen.

Only the Holy Spirit can explain grace to a heart. It goes against human reason to trust in someone other than yourself for anything so important as your eternal soul. Take God at His Word. A new creation is made when a person accepts Jesus Christ. Learning how to walk out your christian walk is part of that new creation journey. An unsaved man cannot walk out being a new creation since he has not been created a new.

When we know our salvation is secured by Jesus Christ and not our own feeble minded confused human reason, we can rest and not wonder if a corpse is able to walk the christian walk. As it says in Hebrews, believers work to REST not work to work. Rest in the finished work of Christ, not human works. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth.

faroukfarouk · Mar 20, 2014

ladylynn said:

Hi, I think you need to answer that question yourself. You already know Jesus died on the cross... That Adam's sin was "imputed" on all mankind.... Everyone who is born is born in sin because of Adam. Having done no good or bad thing it makes no difference we were all under the curse of Adam's sin.

God sent His Son into the world not to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved... The world was already condemned by Adam's sin. Judgment fell on all human kind (for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God) BUT Jesus became the Second Adam. Sin was "imputed" to Christ...
Righteousness was "imputed" on mankind for those who recieve His righteousness. Can we change our human condition since we are all in Adam? It took Jesus to change our status from sinners to saints. We were dead in trespasses and sins. Now we are alive in Him.

Jesus recieved OUR sin and paid for it. We recieve HIS righteousness and are new creations IN Christ. The divine exchange. Amen.

Only the Holy Spirit can explain grace to a heart. It goes against human reason to trust in someone other than yourself for anything so important as your eternal soul. Take God at His Word. A new creation is made when a person accepts Jesus Christ. Learning how to walk out your christian walk is part of that new creation journey. An unsaved man cannot walk out being a new creation since he has not been created a new.

When we know our salvation is secured by Jesus Christ and not our own feeble minded confused human reason, we can rest and not wonder if a corpse is able to walk the christian walk. As it says in Hebrews, believers work to REST not work to work. Rest in the finished work of Christ, not human works. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth.

Ms. ladylynn: Good post! Justification by faith is a great doctrine in Scripture and so important.

I would maybe add that the Lord Jesus is described as 'the last Adam' (1 Corinthians 15.45).

Blessings,f

posthuman · Mar 20, 2014

BenFTW said:

thanks,

i like what is said in the link:

Do you want to know whether or not you are sharing the Gospel correctly or not? One litmus test I use is whether or not this question comes up. If you share the Gospel and somebody says, “Well, if what you are saying is true, then can’t I just go sin all I want?” you know that you have explained the Gospel clearly.

& the author explains James very clearly in a way i completely agree with.

Timeline · Mar 20, 2014

The work that they are talking about is not your job. I my bread is to do the will of my father. And yes, someone can receive Jesus on their deathbed and be saved right before they die. But this is not something that anyone should attempt to do.

You are saved without works. There is nothing that you can do to earn your salvation. But, if you are truly grateful for Jesus you will do the work. So posthuman's statement is true: Faith alone saves, but faith that saves is not alone. You are saved through your acceptance of Jesus, but if you accept Jesus you will work.

SeaBass · Mar 20, 2014

BenFTW said:

You posted "To understand what is going on, you need to understand that Paul and James are talking about two completely different events in the life of Abraham"

I disagree with this (of course). A post I made earlier inthis thread (post #17) shows that the difference is in the WORKS each is talking about. The works James speaks about are obedient works, doing as God commands as Abraham did in offering Isaac. This obedinet works/working righteousness" Acts 10:35 does save/justify. Paul on the other hand, is talking about works of merit that does not save. Obedient works justifes while works or merit do not.

You can see both of these works in Rom 10:3:
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

There are two types of works cited in this one verse, one does not save while the other work does save.

The two works:

1) establishing their own righteousness
2) submitting unto the righteousness of God

In this context of Rom 10 Paul tells us the fleshly Jews were lost for they went about establsihing thier OWN righteousness, that is, they were doing their own works trying to merit salvation. But for them to be saved they had to submit/obey the righteousness (commandments) of God. So again, in just this one verse we have two DIFFERENT types of works, with one work that does not save (works of merit) and one that does save (obeying God's commandments).

-------------------------------------------

Gen 15:6 "And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

I just cannot find the word "alone" in this verse.

Your link argues that Abraham was jsusifed by faith alone. My arguements against this faulty idea:

1) again, the word "alone" is not in the verse, it must be added and when one adds to God's word he changes it.

2) to ASSUME and ADD the word "alone" to Gen 15:6, that completely ignores and dismisses the obedient belief Abraham had prior in Genesis chapters 12,13,14 where his obedient belief lead him to leave house, land and kinsman (see Heb 11:8) and the altars he built unto God.

3) the link then implies that Abraham was LOST prior to Gen 15:6, that he was not saved until Gen 15:6 by belief only. I see nothing in the context that leads me to think Abraham was a lost, unfogiven reprobate prior to Gen 15:6. For example, in Gen 15:1 God says To Abraham "Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward". These are not words God would speak to an unforgiven reprobate

4) also remember, James also quoted Gen 15:6 in James 2:23 and James ATTACHED obedient works to Abraham's faith.

5) in Rom 4:2 the "works" in this context Paul speaks about are works of merit, not an obedient belief.

SeaBass · Mar 20, 2014

notuptome said:

Ahh, so you posted "Works are part of the sanctification process, a process we will be engaged in until we are glorified together with Christ.

I claim that works follow salvation because that is what the bible teaches.

So you are saying savlation cannot be accomplished with no works taking place.

posthuman · Mar 20, 2014

if a person has believed on Christ & accepted His grace,
but then forsakes all the good works God has for them and continues on in sin - if that is a sheep our Shepherd wouldn't even bother looking for the carcass of, why in the world does a verse like this exist in our Bibles?

deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(1 Corinthians 5:5)

Delivery · Mar 20, 2014

Look, Seabass, the number 1 reason our salvation is eternal is because we're all sinners. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

No matter how hard we try we can never be good enough to deserve or merit eternal life in heaven. Therefore, the only way to be saved is to have all our sins forgiven us, the slate wiped clean, and all our filthiness washed away, and to have righteousness automatically imputed upon us by faith. And the only way that can happen is to believe in Jesus, and accept Jesus' atonement for our sins. He was punished for our sins so we wouldn't have to be.

4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Your works can't keep you saved, anymore than they can save you in the first place.

Salvation Not Possible Without Works

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