Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Hoffco]

To Elin, God does saves the "ungodly" in the state of ungodliness, He gives us the new birth and forgiveness by GRACE, in the state of our ungodliness, by His power and mercy, He transforms and forgives us. Then, when we repent and believe in Jesus, we are already made holy in heart and soul, mind and strength, by God's sanctifying power. Sanct, by GRACE, comes at the same time as Justification by GRACE. Then we believe on Jesus and start good words, faith is the first good work. Love Hoffco

 

[royalscot]

1 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it---22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
gal 3

19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith

 

[kennethcadwell]

If you are walking in willful sin continuously then I would question the salvation.If the salvation is true then you will have a desire to live right.

That is true, but would be evident that you are not saved at that point.
The scriptures show there are those who continue this way do to false doctrine, and others who after awhile return to willful sin.
It falls on us to show them the truth, but in some cases like the bible says it is impossible to bring them back to repentance because they are so caught up in the lie that it is acceptable.

To seed_time_harvest, and kennethcadwell, it is a delight to see you standing up for the godly salvation of the Bible, may God continue to bless you in His word. Love Hoffco

Thanks for the kind words, and may God continue to bless you as well in all things.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Elin, in your closing "This is what the LORD says," after "declares the LORD," you need the following:

This is what Elin says,

You have me confused with someone else.

 

[Elin]

Elin, in your closing "This is what the LORD says," after "declares the LORD," you need the following:

This is what Elin says,

You have me confused with someone else.

Yeah. . .a lotta' that occurs with a few folks.

 

[JesusIsAll]

Yeah. . .a lotta' that occurs with a few folks.

It's weird, becoming a phenomenon. It's as if you're saying something that's making the scatterbrained compulsive! You must be the Antiscatter.

 

[Hoffco]

LOL, that sure is "satterbranded" ,you MOCK God, beware. We reap who we sow. Love Hoffco

 

[Elin]

It's weird, becoming a phenomenon. It's as if you're saying something that's making the scatterbrained compulsive! You must be the Antiscatter.

Well, I'm the anti-salvation-by-law-keeping, which really stirs up some folks.

Some are just plain confused, and others chose to misrepresent.

 

[Elin]

LOL! Poor Elin. It's like deja vu, all over again... and again...

You need to change your user name to MistakenIdentity.

Yeah. . ."you have me confused with someone else" translates to: your misrepresentation is just that.

As you'll see, misrepresentation is the name of the game with a few folks.
It's that circular hole to nowhere in which they hope to drag you down.

You've done your time there.
Wanna' go back?

I like the user name!

 

[Hoffco]

I will quote Eph.1:18-19 for all to know these wonderful facts of Grace. "The eyes of your understanding being enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power " This is in accordance with so many verses like Rom.1:16. The Gospel is the power of God to all who believe, We come humbly to God in faith asking for the new heart and by His almighty power, He gives us the new birth by Grace alone. Then we trust in Christ alone for forgiveness of our sins, and He forgives us, Then we begin the victorious Holy life in the power of the Spirit within us, the moment we are saved,(born of God and forgiven in Jesus blood) There is no waiting for yrs of growth before we can walk the holy life, it is immediately after the New birth. We immediately turn from our idols to serve the living God. Love to all. Hoffco

 

[just-me]

It's weird, becoming a phenomenon. It's as if you're saying something that's making the scatterbrained compulsive! You must be the Antiscatter.

Deep down inside I knew better, but I couldn't help myself. LOL
How to deal with a "know it all"
How to Deal With People Who Frustrate You

 

[SeaBass]

The order in salvation is very clear, God must save us before we can savingly believe and follow, obey Christ. Elin, you keep insisting that "dead" can believe on Jesus and be forgiven. This is totally impossible. Love Hoffco

You have one first saved then he beleives which is not possible, Jn 3:18

 

[SeaBass]

There is no free will to come to God, any time the sinner wills to, Because, they WILL NOT WANT TO, come. until GOD MAKES them WILLING. God sets us apart from sin and apart to holiness, before we will/can believe and commit all to Jesus for salvation. Rom.6:22 "But now having been set free from sin,and having become slaves of God,you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, eternal life." The dead sinner is passive, and God is active in our new birth. Once we are saved by God, born of God, then, only then, will we obey to eternal life. Love Hoffco

If this is true, then God is to be blamed and is at fault for those that are lost and man has no accountability or responsibility.

 

[SeaBass]

This is sooo clear, how do you, all,miss it? MOST, Christian believe in the free will of man, but, not in the FREE WILL of GOD, it is GOD'S free will, that save sinners. Jh. 5:21"For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He wills." Jh.5:25 "...the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." Jh.10"27 "My sheep hear my voice and they follow Me"v29 life for those who do good, death to those who do evil. Love Hoffco

God has promised to save those that obey, Heb 5:9 and have vengeance upon these that obey not, 2 Thess 1:8.

Does God have the free will to break these promises and lie? No.

 

[SeaBass]

So you are unaware that Paul uses dikaiosune in two ways in the NT.

That explains your grievous error.

In Rom 6:16 Paul says one will either serve one of two masters, one will serve either sin unto death and be lost and serve obedience unto righteousness and be saved. So every man will either be saved or be lost - no inbetween. Since Paul associated "obedience unto righteousness" with being saved, that does not fit your personal theology so you are striving to make something up to get around this.

Read it again.

It doesn't say he sets his mind.

It says his mind is set. . .by his nature, either
regenerate, which lives in accordance with the Spirit (regenerated), or
unregenerate, which lives according to the sinful (unregenerate) nature.

Rom 8 does not say man has a sinful or depraved nature. That idea is added to the text.

Rom 8:5 "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit"

People can choose to mind things of the spirit as they can choose to mind things of the flesh. Verse 5 here shows that man if he chooses to can mind things of the spirit and therefore does not have a totally depraved nature or sinful nature. Once can choose to mind things of the flesh today, yet repent and choose to mind things of the spirit tomorrow.

Rom 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

"IF" is a conditional word, it shows one has the choice to live after the flesh or spirit and the consequence of living after the flesh, ye shall die. The consequence of choosing to live after the spirit, ye shall live.

God shows in Gen 4:7, using the conditional word "IF", that Cain had a choice to do well or not do well, Cain had no "nature" that would force him to a position where he could only choose to not do well/choose the flesh.

Straw man.

"Remain" is your word, added to Paul's text.

Paul said "he who justifes the ungodly (asebeia)."

You added your own word to what Paul said, so you could deny your fabricated false statement.

Nor did I chose the word asebeia in Ro 4:5:

Your issue is with Paul, not with me.
Take it up with him.

Not a straw man as you claim for you have yet to show one example from the bible where an ungodly man was saved while he remained in an ungodly, unrighteous, faithless state. In Rom 4, Abraham and David sinned therefore ungodly but they both had an obedient faith whereby God would reckon them righteous

[

Indeed, the ungodly are lost, until God gives them the gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1, Ac 18:27)
which justifies them, God's declaration of "not guilty," but rightwise with him,
which saves them from his wrath (Ro 5:9) on their guilt at the Final Judgment.

Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God, Rom 10:9 belief comes from within the human heart and not a gift God randomly gives to some and withholds from others thereby putting fault and blame upon God for the faithless/lost.

Nope. . .that's your misunderstanding of it.

Read it again.

Paul is discussing Abraham in the context of righteousness (justification) by faith, or righteousness (justification) by works.

What? Are you trying to argue that Abraham was a perfectly sinless man?

"Ungodly" is your word for Abraham, and with your own unbiblical definition of it.

The NT does not ever use "ungodly" (asebeia - defiance against God's person) of Abraham, or David.

Those that sin are ungodly
Rom 4:5 ".... but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,..." If the ungodly were sinless then they would not need justifying. Therefore Abraham and David sinned and therefore needed justifying and God justified them by their obedient faith. No one is justified while remaining in a sinful, faithless state.

Straw man.

They are justified while they are in an ungodly state, in which they are given the gift of faith which justifies them,
and turns their hearts to repentance and obedience in the Holy Spirit.

When God justifies them, he removes them from their state of ungodliness to a state of godliness (defiance rejected,
submission received).

You do not know the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Then show me ONE example of where an ungodly man was justified while he was still in an ungodly, sinful, unrighteous, faithless state.

Psa 1:6 "For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

The ungodly that remain sinful and faithless will perish, not be saved as you claim. But the ungodly that has an obedient faith, that is, those that DO RIGHTEOUSNESS will not perish.

1 Jn 3:10 "..he that doeth NOT righteousness is NOT of God..." The ungodly that will not DO RIGHTEOUSNESS will perish.

 

[SeaBass]

To Elin, God does saves the "ungodly" in the state of ungodliness, He gives us the new birth and forgiveness by GRACE, in the state of our ungodliness, by His power and mercy, He transforms and forgives us. Then, when we repent and believe in Jesus, we are already made holy in heart and soul, mind and strength, by God's sanctifying power. Sanct, by GRACE, comes at the same time as Justification by GRACE. Then we believe on Jesus and start good words, faith is the first good work. Love Hoffco

What verse says God will save the ungodly while that ungodly person remains in an ungodly, sinful, unrighteous, faithless state?

 

[Little_Light]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[SeaBass]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Ephesians 2:8-9

The "not of works" in Eph 2:9 refer to works of merit and not obedient works, Rom 6:16-18 or good works, Eph 2:10 else Paul contradicts himself.

 

[Elin]

The "not of works" in Eph 2:9 refer to works of merit and not obedient works, Rom 6:16-18 or good works, Eph 2:10 else Paul contradicts himself.

Obedient works are works of merit,

unless works of merit are disobedient works.

 

[Elin]

What verse says God will save the ungodly while that ungodly person remains in an ungodly, sinful, unrighteous, faithless state?

God saves the ungodly without their doing anything to be saved.

Ro 4:5 says that God justifies the wicked.

For an example of what that looks like see this.