Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[notuptome]

Tts 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."

If reception of God's grace is unconditional, then all men will be saved. Since all men are not saved then reception of God's grace must be conditional....conditional upon man's obedience to God's will, Heb 5:9.

And we know that obedience to God's will earns man nothing, Rom 4:4,5 and that God's free grace comes with conditions and meeting those conditions earn nothing:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html

First of all you are adding to what I said. I never said that all men were saved. God has made it so all men are given the opportunity to receive Christ and be saved but I have never implied that men are saved automatically whether they want to be saved or not.

Just one time try to stay away from your straw men and behold the truth. God loves with a love that is far beyond our capacity to love else He would have destroyed all men from off the face of the earth long, long ago.

To understand God's grace you must first taste of it. God's grace completely and eternally changes a man. Straw men are burned up at the entrance of Gods truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Elin]

Paul in Rom 6 has made working righeousness a requirment for salvation.

Rom 6:16 Paul said "obedience unto righteousness".

Are you aware that Paul uses the word "righteousness" in two ways in the NT?

1) righteousness = justification - declared "not guilty" by God because of faith in Jesus Christ,
which saves from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on one's guilt at the Final Judgment

2) righteousness = sanctification - obedience by the Holy Spirit, which follows justification of faith,
transforming us into the image of Christ

Ro 6:16, et al, refers to the latter.

Ro 8:7-8 - "the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
Those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

(There is no doing of any good works by the unregenerate nature.)

The context of Romans 8 has nothing to do with being "regenerate" or "unregenerate".

Rom 8:5 - "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."

A person can choose to either set their mind on the flesh or on the spirit.
A person minds what he freely chooses to mind

Except for that part in Ro 8:7-8 about "nor can it do so" and "cannot please God."

Ro 4:5 - "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

The ungodly must first obediently believe before he can be justified. "HIS faith" "his'"refers back to
the ungodly that obediently believe.

FAIL.

"Ungodly" = defiance of God's person, in the Greek

So that the defiant believingly obey is a contradiction of terms in the Greek. . .and a self-evident FAIL.

1Pet 4:18 - "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?"

There is a contrast between the righteous that are scarcely saved and the ungodly.

Your point?

 

[SeaBass]

Are you aware that Paul uses the word "righteousness" in two ways in the NT?

1) righteousness = justification - declared "not guilty" by God because of faith in Jesus Christ,
which saves from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on one's guilt at the Final Judgment

2) righteousness = sanctification - obedience by the Holy Spirit, which follows justification of faith,
transforming us into the image of Christ

Ro 6:16, et al, refers to the latter.

In Rom 6:16-18 Paul used same Greek word for righteousness - dikaiosynē

Rom 6:16 obedience unto dikaiosynē

Rom 6:17,18 the order of events was:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed that form of doctrine
3) then freed from sins/justified became servants of dikaiosynē

Except for that part in Ro 8:7-8 about "nor can it do so" and "cannot please God."

The context already says one does what he sets his mid to do. Verses 7 or 8 do not say otherwise. Those that freely choose to be of the flesh cannot please God. But if they set their minds on the spiritual do please God. Nothing in the context says ma is forced by God against man's own will to set his mind on the flesh or on the spirit.

FAIL.

"Ungodly" = defiance of God's person, in the Greek

You cannot show me an example of an ungodly, unrighteous person be saved while remaining in his ungodly state. The ungodly must first have an obedient faith then can be saved.

So that the defiant believingly obey is a contradiction of terms in the Greek

. . .and a self-evident FAIL.


Your point?

The fail point is claiming the ungodly will be saved while they remain ungodly. The point of 1 Pet 4:18 is to show a contrast, a distinction between the righteous and the ungodly, the two are not the same, the righteous are saved and the ungodly are lost.

Rom 4:5 "....., but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
Paul is discussing Abraham in the context and Abraham was not perfectly sinless, he sinned therefore ungodly. David likewise also sinned therefore ungodly. But these sinful, ungodly men because of their obedient faith were justified by God. Obviously God would not need to justify Godly, sinless men. It is the ungodly that needs justification so God justifies the ungodly through faith. Abraham was justified by God so did that automatically make Abraham perfectly sinless? No, Abraham still sinned, still ungodly by his sinning but it was by his obedient faith God justified him.

Paul in no way is saying the ungodly are justified while remaining in a faithless, ungodly state.

 

[SeaBass]

First of all you are adding to what I said. I never said that all men were saved. God has made it so all men are given the opportunity to receive Christ and be saved but I have never implied that men are saved automatically whether they want to be saved or not.

Just one time try to stay away from your straw men and behold the truth. God loves with a love that is far beyond our capacity to love else He would have destroyed all men from off the face of the earth long, long ago.

To understand God's grace you must first taste of it. God's grace completely and eternally changes a man. Straw men are burned up at the entrance of Gods truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I did not say that you said "all men are saved", but I was pointing out the implication of Tts 2:11 that if God's grace is UNconditional then all men would be saved UNconditionally. But since all men are NOT saved then that implies God's grace is conditional. Since receiving God's grace is conditional then salvation is conditional and not UNconditional as eternal security falsely claims.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Repentance must take place before a homosexual can be saved. "Belief only" is not repentance and as Paul says in Rom 2 the impenitent will not be saved.

Eph 4:22,23 "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

One first puts off the sinful way of the life of the old man, then be renewed.

Sorry that it took me so long to reply but I couldn't get to a computer.

I agree that repentance comes first.(truth is recognized)
We all repent when we see that we were going the wrong direction,but belief in the WORD of GOD is all that is needed for salvation.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

When I quote verses from the bible I am quoting what God thinks. Unfortunately many try and change bible verses to conform it to their opinions for hey do not like what God thinks.

See what I mean?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

God promised us the gift of the Holy Spirit after repentance and baptism...we are created unto good works....what part of good works is homosexuality? If we are saved from sins it is obvious we ought not to sin....

I take it you are not talking about the baptism of John but the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT by JESUS,if so then I agree.
You have to remember that the change took place in the spirit and then a person needs to renew their mind to what happened in the spirit.

spirit is spirit
flesh is flesh

GOD has created us new in the spirit,and then we are sealed,but our bodies have not been glorified yet.

we all sin in the flesh.

 

[JesusIsAll]

I remember somebody once saying something like, "If you were on trial, accused of being a Christian, and nobody could find the evidence to convict you, then you may have a problem with the Lord."

 

[Hoffco]

The order in salvation is very clear, God must save us before we can savingly believe and follow, obey Christ. Elin, you keep insisting that "dead" can believe on Jesus and be forgiven. This is totally impossible. Love Hoffco

 

[kennethcadwell]

I take it you are not talking about the baptism of John but the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT by JESUS,if so then I agree.
You have to remember that the change took place in the spirit and then a person needs to renew their mind to what happened in the spirit.

spirit is spirit
flesh is flesh

GOD has created us new in the spirit,and then we are sealed,but our bodies have not been glorified yet.

we all sin in the flesh.

We all do sin at times, but you can not live in willful sin after accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

There is a difference from some one who repents of their sins and then back slides here and there, then some one who accepts Christ but does not repent and continues to live in their sin.

Scripture makes it clear that you can not walk in willful sin an still be saved. When you repent it is a change of mind in knowing how you need a Lord and Savior, and to turn from the way you are living. We are a work in progress, and are called to turn away from our sins and not to continue walking in them.

 

[Hoffco]

"Dead sinners can not believe in a saving manor. They can believe in an intellectual, emotional manor,but not savingly, they will not "commit", lot stock and barrow to Christ. There is sooo much against false faith in the Bible, Elin, you must, define faith according to Jesus ,by all scripture. You know what Biblical faith is: you,please teach it,.! Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Many believed emotionally believed in Jesus after seeing miracles,but were not saved. Jesus called them,sons of their father the Devil. Jh.8:30--They did not commit body and soul to Jesus service, to love and obey Him. Jesus told Nicodemus one must be born of God to "see"(understand) and "enter" the Kingdom of God.Jh.3--And, Jesus said to other"believers" "if the Son shall make you free, you would be free indeed", they were still enslaved to SIN, Jesus did not free them, yet. We must see, the new birth, Sanct. begun, comes before Justi.. Love Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

There is no free will to come to God, any time the sinner wills to, Because, they WILL NOT WANT TO, come. until GOD MAKES them WILLING. God sets us apart from sin and apart to holiness, before we will/can believe and commit all to Jesus for salvation. Rom.6:22 "But now having been set free from sin,and having become slaves of God,you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, eternal life." The dead sinner is passive, and God is active in our new birth. Once we are saved by God, born of God, then, only then, will we obey to eternal life. Love Hoffco

 

[seed_time_harvest]

We all do sin at times, but you can not live in willful sin after accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior
There is a difference from some one who repents of their sins and then back slides here and there, then some one who accepts Christ but does not repent and continues to live in their sin.


Scripture makes it clear that you can not walk in willful sin an still be saved. When you repent it is a change of mind in knowing how you need a Lord and Savior, and to turn from the way you are living. We are a work in progress, and are called to turn away from our sins and not to continue walking in them.

If you are walking in willful sin continuously then I would question the salvation.If the salvation is true then you will have a desire to live right.

 

[Hoffco]

This is sooo clear, how do you, all,miss it? MOST, Christian believe in the free will of man, but, not in the FREE WILL of GOD, it is GOD'S free will, that save sinners. Jh. 5:21"For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He wills." Jh.5:25 "...the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." Jh.10"27 "My sheep hear my voice and they follow Me"v29 life for those who do good, death to those who do evil. Love Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Are you aware that Paul uses the word "righteousness" in two ways in the NT?

1) righteousness = justification - declared "not guilty" by God because of faith in Jesus Christ, which saves from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on one's guilt at the Final Judgment

2) righteousness = sanctification - obedience by the Holy Spirit, which follows justification of faith, transforming us into the image of Christ

Ro 6:16, et al, refers to the latter.

In Rom 6:16-18 Paul used same Greek word for righteousness - dikaiosynē

Rom 6:16 obedience unto dikaiosynē

So you are unaware that Paul uses dikaiosune in two ways in the NT.

That explains your grievous error.

The context already says one does what he sets his mind to do. Verses 7 or 8 do not say otherwise. Those that freely choose to be of the flesh cannot please God. But if they set their minds on the spiritual do please God. Nothing in the context says ma is forced by God against man's own will to set his mind on the flesh or on the spirit.

Read it again.

It doesn't say he sets his mind.

It says his mind is set. . .by his nature, either
regenerate, which lives in accordance with the Spirit (regenerated), or
unregenerate, which lives according to the sinful (unregenerate) nature.

"Ungodly" = Gr. asebeia - "defiance of God's person"

You cannot show me an example of an ungodly, unrighteous person be saved while remaining in his ungodly state.

The fail point is claiming the ungodly will be saved while they remain ungodly.

Straw man.

"Remain" is your word, added to Paul's text.

Paul said "he who justifes the ungodly (asebeia)."

You added your own word to what Paul said, so you could deny your fabricated false statement.

Nor did I chose the word asebeia in Ro 4:5:

Your issue is with Paul, not with me.
Take it up with him.

The point of 1 Pet 4:18 is to show a contrast, a distinction between the righteous and the ungodly, the two are not the same,
the righteous are saved and the ungodly are lost.

Indeed, the ungodly are lost, until God gives them the gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1, Ac 18:27)
which justifies them, God's declaration of "not guilty," but rightwise with him,
which saves them from his wrath (Ro 5:9) on their guilt at the Final Judgment.

Rom 4:5 ....., but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

Paul is discussing Abraham in the context and Abraham was not perfectly sinless, he sinned therefore ungodly.

Nope. . .that's your misunderstanding of it.

Read it again.

Paul is discussing Abraham in the context of righteousness (justification) by faith, or righteousness (justification) by works.

But these sinful, ungodly men because of their obedient faith were justified by God.

"Ungodly" is your word for Abraham, and with your own unbiblical definition of it.

The NT does not ever use "ungodly" (asebeia - defiance against God's person) of Abraham, or David.

Paul in no way is saying the ungodly are justified while remaining in a faithless, ungodly state.

Straw man.

They are justified while they are in an ungodly state, in which they are given the gift of faith which justifies them,
and turns their hearts to repentance and obedience in the Holy Spirit.

When God justifies them, he removes them from their state of ungodliness to a state of godliness (defiance rejected,
submission received).

You do not know the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Hoffco]

To seed_time_harvest, and kennethcadwell, it is a delight to see you standing up for the godly salvation of the Bible, may God continue to bless you in His word. Love Hoffco

 

[Elin]

I remember somebody once saying something like, "If you were on trial, accused of being a Christian, and nobody could find the evidence to convict you, then you may have a problem with the Lord."

Also, if you were on trial for being a Christian, would there be any evidence to convict you?

 

[Elin]

The order in salvation is very clear, God must save us before we can savingly believe and follow, obey Christ. Elin, you keep insisting that "dead" can believe on Jesus and be forgiven. This is totally impossible. Love Hoffco

You have me confused with someone else.

 

[JesusIsAll]

You have me confused with someone else.

LOL! Poor Elin. It's like deja vu, all over again... and again...

You need to change your user name to MistakenIdentity.