Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[SeaBass]

No, he does not HAVE to. But as a New Creation, if he led by the Spirit and not by the Law, because the Spirit is producing His Fruit in that believer (Love), the believer will not only want to help not only a fellow Christian, but the sinner, as well.

It's so interesting to me that obligation or fear of losing or not attaining salvation is the motivation for obedience in your paradigm. It brings elements of resentment and fear into the believer's heart instead of confidence and love, both of which God desires for His children (1 Jn. 4, Heb. 4, and many other passages).

-JGIG

Eph 2:10, Matt 25; 1 Jn 3:17 among other verses says the CHristian MUST do good works and the Christian has no choice in this the matter.


You posted "believer will not only want to help not only a fellow Christian, but the sinner, as well."

Yet "faith only" says the Christian does not have to help a fellow Christian or help anyone......faith only says the Christian does not even have to have the "want" or desire to help a fellow Christian.

 

[JGIG]

This is what I understand you saying:

You say that if one is lead by the Spirit, with the implied understanding that it is the Spirit guiding one to perform an act of love, then when He does guide us to perform that act, that we do 'not HAVE to' perform that act, with further implication of not being in fear of loosing salvation.
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I always felt that Hebrews literally mean that we should not become like those who fell in the wilderness, whose heart became stubborn and did not hearken to the Voice of the Lord. And that if we were to become stubborn like them, we too will be done like them, hence the warning of watching over each other so that sort of heart will not be found in us.

As with any child, I can understand a little stubbornness, but how long can someone claim that they do not have to do as the Spirit guides, before the Lord becomes disgusted with them and surrender them over to the lusts of their hearts and by which, cause them to fail as He did with some of the Hebrews?

You also imply that if a person is led by the Spirit, then the Spirit is producing His fruit (Love) in them and they would want to help all. What do we then do with verses which imply that the love (agape) we have is that which comes from us as taught to us by God (1Th 4:9) and acted upon by us in the following verses:

'if we were to love God', 'if God so loved the world, we ought to love one another', 'he who loves not his brother...how can he love God', 'if any man loves God', 'love your wife'?​

I guess I am asking, if the love we have is not our own love (agape), then is that love really true love coming from our heart or just an implanted love by which God acts? Or is it that we love God because He first loved us?

Could it be that since we love God, that God has prepared things which the eye has never seen, neither the ear have heard, nor have ever entered the heart? Is it not said that God will give the crown of life to those who loves Him?

If love is a production, then it cannot be genuine. However, if love is taught and we act upon it accordingly, then God's judgment of deeds is righteous.

I understand what you're saying, and if newly born-again believers came out fully mature in Christ, you'd have some points.

But they don't.

And if they don't receive good spiritual food, they don't grow properly. And unfortunately, much of the spiritual food out there is a Grace/Law mixture, which actually hinders spiritual maturity and the bearing of good fruit.

If love is a 'production'?

The love that is the Fruit of the Spirit is His love, love that fills and overflows. He produces the Fruit that we as believers bear. You don't see grape vines or apple trees out there trying to squeeze out fruit; the branches bear fruit because they are nourished by the root. So it is with believers. We bear the Fruit of our Root, Who is Christ.

Good fruit takes time, however, and Christian 'observers' are not nearly so patient as is our Father.

-JGIG

 

[SeaBass]

That's because you cannot see that faith is entering into what God has already done.

It's not about an entrance into university, and then if you want to stay you have to keep your GPA up.

It's the receiving of the gifts of Forgiveness, Righteousness, and New Life in Christ.

Then it's God's job to teach you how to love. And out of love flows works.

The Gospel of Grace teaches us that works are a fruit of living in Christ, not a requirement for living in Christ.

-JGIG

WHere is the verse that says one has to have faith in what God has done while I sit and do nothing??


Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" The manmade teaching of faith only is totally, completely in opposition to Heb 5:9.

 

[BenFTW]

WHere is the verse that says one has to have faith in what God has done while I sit and do nothing??


Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" The manmade teaching of faith only is totally, completely in opposition to Heb 5:9.

You're ignoring my post(s), which makes me think I've made a point you wish to(avoid) not address.

 

[SeaBass]

Romans 5 obliterates your misuse/cherry-picking of the other Scriptures:

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,

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we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, ​

​

2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. ​

​

And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. ​

3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

​

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
​

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7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. ​

​

8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
​

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9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
​

10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!


​

11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
​

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

​

It's not about what you do, or will do, or won't do, or have done.

It's all about Christ and what HE'S done \o/!

-JGIG

I see absolutly NOTHING in Rom 5 that says faith only saves or "sit and do nothing and thou shalt be saved"

 

[JGIG]

A Christian MUST provide for his own house or he has denied the faith and is worse than infidel. So the work of providing of his own house is necessary work to maintain his savlation or else he will be lost being a denier of the fiath and worse than an infidel. Will you argue deniers of the faith and infidels will be saved? Do you realize faith only requires you to take this rediculous unbiblcal position?


Again, I have NOT argued that salvation can be earned, that is a false strawman argument being offered up by those on unbiblcal side of the issue. In an earlier post, I gave the example were I gave one a car FREE of charge out of my good grace but all she had to do to get this free car is to the works of coming to my office to get the title and keys and then go to the car dealer and get the car. Is her doing the works of coming to my office and getting the keys and tiltle and then going to the car dealer to get the free car mean she is earning that free car? In no way whatsoever, those works are conditions place upon the free gift and do not, cannot earn that free gift.

Will this stopped the false strawman argument that SeaBass is claiming salvation is earned? No, for that false argument is all the faith only proponents have.



Thepurpose of this thread is to expose the false, man-made teaching of fatih only. Faith only will only leave a person lost.

Have you not looked thru this thread at how those that support this made-made doctrine are struggling to find to get a man sved WITHOUT that man ever doing any type of works at all???
Faith only has lead to to say the denier of Christ, the impenitnet, the one lost in his unforgiven sins, the one that closes up his compassion for his fellow brother, the one who does not have to walk in the light so his sins are allcleanse d away can still be saved.


You posted yourself "For those who work the job understanding that the job to provide for the family is not the job unto salvation,"

The implication of this is you are really saying one does NOT have to do the work of providing for his own house, he can be a denier of the faith, worse than an infidel yet still be saved.

This is an illustration of your 'gospel':

-JGIG

 

[BenFTW]

I see absolutly NOTHING in Rom 5 that says faith only saves or "sit and do nothing and thou shalt be saved"

Maybe not in romans, but heres Hebrews for you.

[h=3]Hebrews 4:10[/h]King James Version (KJV)

10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

[SeaBass]

But none of this addresses the issue. I'm saying Christ pardoned the thief while he was still under the law of Moses. That's why he is not a good example for what to do to be saved today.

We can also add Mt 9:6 to this point "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house."

When CHrist was ON EARTH He had been given the power/authority to forgive the sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. Yet Christ left the earth some 2,000 years ago and is NOT ON EARTH today forgiving sins of people today in the same way He did with the thief. But when Christ left earth some 2,000 years ago He left behind His word, the gospel, as His authority and that gospel says for one to be saved he must believe, repent, confess and submit to baptism, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33 and Mk 16:16.

 

[JGIG]

Guys - Jesus died before the thief.

The Blood of the Covenant had been spilt.

The thief believed Christ was Who He said He was.

He absolutely put his faith in the Work of Christ.

He was saved in the New Covenant.

The logistics of where and when he went?

Personally, I think he went with Jesus to Paradise, and then into heaven after the Resurrection:

10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! (Rom. 5:10)
​

Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit was poured out on mankind - on Earth.

That doesn't mean that the thief couldn't be saved until then; he was with Christ in Paradise, and having received life through Christ's Resurrection, was in heaven with God before Pentecost. Pentecost on Earth was of no consequence to him.

-JGIG

Just a question....You said that the thief went to Paradise, and I agree, but was not Paradise in Hades then, the place where the righteous dead of the Old Covenant went and where Jesus and that men went? I mean, if he went there, then was he not judged under the OT, seeing that the NT saints go to Paradise which is now in Heaven (he could not have went to Heaven before Jesus)?

CHrist promised the thief paradise (salvation) while BOTH were alive and under the OT law.

Rom 10:9 could the thief have the type of belief theNT requires that "God HATH RAISED" (past tense) from the dead? No. At the time Christ promised the thief paradise, Christ had not yet died much less been riased from the dead and the thief was not accountable to this type of belief nor was he accountable to Christ's great commission baptism of Acts 2:38 for the thief died BEFORE this came intoeffect also.....in Luke 24 after Christ's death and ressurection Christ spoke to His disciples and in verse 47 we have Luke's account of Christ's great commission, Christ said "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Note that this did not come into effect until some weeks. months later at Pentecost in Acts 2 where Peter was in Jeusalem and preached repentance and baptism in the name of the Lord for remission of sins. Soeven after one dies, there can be a period of probation before the will takes effect. In this case it was several weeks before Luke 24:47 came into effect. It came into effect long AFTER the thief died thereby NOT making the thief accountable to ACts 2:38 as we today who live AFTER Acts 2:38 are accountable to it.

In the death of Christ is the Forgiveness of sins; in the Resurrection of Christ is the gift of Righteousness and New Life in Christ.

Eternal Life could not occur until the Resurrection of Christ. At that point, the thief and others who had been in Paradise could enter heaven. Scripture also speaks of OT saints walking the streets after the Resurrection, so who knows? The thief may have been in that group! There are some unknowns, but the simple fact is that the thief believed in the Work of Christ, and that was his salvation. He just got to walk through it more literally than we do!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Eph 2:10, Matt 25; 1 Jn 3:17 among other verses says the CHristian MUST do good works and the Christian has no choice in this the matter.


You posted "believer will not only want to help not only a fellow Christian, but the sinner, as well."

Yet "faith only" says the Christian does not have to help a fellow Christian or help anyone......faith only says the Christian does not even have to have the "want" or desire to help a fellow Christian.

From what you write, it appears that you have no knowledge of the New Creation and the implications of that.

Also, do you have children?

Did they come out of the womb fully capable of adult duties? Mature in character? Full of wisdom and cognition?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

WHere is the verse that says one has to have faith in what God has done while I sit and do nothing??


Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" The manmade teaching of faith only is totally, completely in opposition to Heb 5:9.

The context of the letter to the Hebrews is obedience to what?\

To the Gospel.

What is the Gospel?

Believe on the One He sent.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Romans 5 obliterates your misuse/cherry-picking of the other Scriptures:

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,

​

we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, ​

​

2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. ​

​

And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. ​

3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

​

6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
​

​

7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. ​

​

8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
​

​

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
​

10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!


​

11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
​

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

​

It's not about what you do, or will do, or won't do, or have done.

It's all about Christ and what HE'S done \o/!

-JGIG

I see absolutly NOTHING in Rom 5 that says faith only saves or "sit and do nothing and thou shalt be saved"

You also see nothing that tells you that works are required for salvation. Forgiveness, Righteousness, and New Life are Gifts.

-JGIG

 

[SeaBass]

1 John 4:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

This verse speaks volumes in regards to people not assured in their salvation. Imagine, the Word even says that we may come boldly forth in judgment!


1 John 4:17
New King James Version (NKJV)
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]We love him, because he first loved us.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

[SUP]21 [/SUP]And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.


Verse 15..but but but confession is a work that earns savlation.


This passage speaks of Christians loving God and God loving Christians.

Jn 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Jn 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jn 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

1 Jn 2:3,4 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

1 Jn 3:24 "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."

1 Jn 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."


Keeping God's commandments is a WORK. Yet faith onlyu says one dos not hve to do this work which implies that I can be saved while NOT loving God and God NOT loving me..which is not possible at all.



To the faith only proponents

Do you love God? Then you must be doing the work of keeping His commandments. Are you earning your salvation by keeping God's commandments? Or do you think keeping God's comandments is not necessary to salvation?

 

[cfultz3]

I understand what you're saying, and if newly born-again believers came out fully mature in Christ, you'd have some points.

But they don't.

And if they don't receive good spiritual food, they don't grow properly. And unfortunately, much of the spiritual food out there is a Grace/Law mixture, which actually hinders spiritual maturity and the bearing of good fruit.

If love is a 'production'?

The love that is the Fruit of the Spirit is His love, love that fills and overflows. He produces the Fruit that we as believers bear. You don't see grape vines or apple trees out there trying to squeeze out fruit; the branches bear fruit because they are nourished by the root. So it is with believers. We bear the Fruit of our Root, Who is Christ.

Good fruit takes time, however, and Christian 'observers' are not nearly so patient as is our Father.

-JGIG

Bare with me and thank you for a personal reply.

I understand what you say and agree that the Fruit of the Spirit is love. However, I am also understanding you as saying that the works we do in conjunction WITH the Spirit is actually His works, as though, we are instruments used for/by His action. (not judging, just explaining how I understand you).

If all we do is His action, then how can God judge our deeds? However, if we have the ability to either act or not act to the leading of the Spirit, then God's judgement is righteous. You see what I am asking?

BTW... I fully agree that a new convert does not automatically come out fully matured and that it takes time to grow in the Lord. But, as with the Hebrews and in Hebrews, we are warned about not having that sort of heart which those who fell in the wilderness had (implying that it is possible for a Christian to have one). My point of question in that first paragraph was: how long can one remain stubborn before God gets disgusted with them (implying: can one continue to walk contrary to the Spirit and still be saved)?

 

[SeaBass]

I love your enthusiasm....it reminds me so much of the loving people (in my life) who profess the Cross and witness the miracle and blessing of Christ to all. Good message.

Did you see inpost #409 where JGIG posted "Everyone is invited to God's Party."


Does this not imply that one must do the work of answering the invitation, the work of going to the "party"?

 

[BenFTW]

Has anyone even considered how arbitrary SeaBass' works based salvation is? Let me explain something to you, and also ask SeaBass something.

If someone accepts Christ and one opportunity(a good work) presents itself and the person does it, is he saved(and dies after)? SeaBass, you will say, "Yes." Right?

Now, if the same person has the opportunity presented to do a good work and doesn't do it, and dies, is he saved? SeaBass, you will answer, "No." That is, if you hold true to your works salvation. If you say, "Yes." then works are arbitrary. If you say, "No" that means that God requires perfection after one is saved (Why did Christ come again?).

Now, lets push this example even further. Say "Joe" accepts the Lord and has one year to live. Through out the year he is presented two opportunities to do good works. He does the first but doesn't do the second work. Is he saved, after the year is up and he dies? If you answer "Yes" then everyone is saved, because we will all unintentionally do a good work, out of who we are and the fruits of the Spirit. If you say, "No, he is not saved" then what you are saying is, again, that God requires perfection. To which I reply, "Why was Jesus sent again?" Oh, and if you say, "Yes" you've also shown that works are arbitrary because he did one and didn't do one.

PS: Is there a ratio of good works to missed good works to be saved? 50/50? 100% good works, with no missed opportunities? Who can do that?

SeaBass answer this. ^

Tell me the answer to each question, it will reveal your error.

 

[SeaBass]

I'm sorry, but you remind me of someone who uses circular logic to make a point. Around and around you go, spiraling into that stupidity that is your perspective. This may sound harsh, but you really are trying a person's patience when you obviously keep missing the point and dare I say, intentionally miss the point. You ignore the fact of whats been said, so that you may try, and fail might I add, to show that works are necessary for salvation. However, you're wrong. Your interpretation of Corinthians is also wrong. I feel as Paul saying "O foolish Galatians!"

SeaBass, I didn't say works are necessary. I said they necessarily flow out of a born again spirit (spiritually dead now made alive) and out of someone having received the fruits of the Spirit. Works are bound to happen,UNINTENTIONALLY. They are a fruit of who you now are. No more than a white person tries to be white, they just are.

If works were necessary for salvation, death bed confessors, the thief on the cross, people in a coma, people lost at sea, people who died shortly after accepting the Lord and anyone without time to bear fruit would be sent to hell. If, for whatever reason, there is some spiritual rule that such people are saved because they never had the chance to produce works, then EVERYONE should go get lost at sea, go to war to die, ask someone to knock them into a coma, or live an exceptionally risky life so they may die quickly! That is the logic that you propose.

You cannot show me that works are necessary for salvation AND you can't show me that they maintain salvation. You have yet to do so, and I challenge you to show me that it is so. Don't rehash the same verses you've been throwing out at us either, because they've each been refuted. It's like we're playing a game at an arcade, and you keep losing. TRY AGAIN. [insert coin]

SO now you are saying a Christian does not have to have these NECESSARY works that are an out-flow?

 

[cfultz3]

I see absolutly NOTHING in Rom 5 that says faith only saves or "sit and do nothing and thou shalt be saved"

I believe you are trying to explain 'active faith', correct? I agree with you, seeing that a dead faith is no faith at all.

 

[SeaBass]

The doublemindedness displayed in the above post is stunning.

-JGIG

Jn 6:27 Jesus said to labour for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which He gives.

Refute Jesus words here please.

 

[SeaBass]

Seabass., your words are tripping you up. It is like "messed up mindedness". We don't "work" to become a Christian, we work after God saves us. BUT, we must keep in mind, everyone, it takes a lot of work to come to the Faith. Others worked on me for 4 yrs, with no results; only when God had me ready, when God was ready, then, I really asked God for salvation, and called on Jesus to save me. My believing in Jesus was the first "work of God" that I did. God saved me, by the new birth and forgiveness of my sins, now ,I have been believing and working the "work of God" ever since. Love to all, Hoffco

You post " We don't "work" to become a Christian" You must not understand the implications of the comment. Belief, repentance, confession and submitting to baptism are all obedient works. Therefore the implication of your statement is that one can be saved in UNBELIEF, while IMPENITENT, while a DENIER of Christ and saved while still LOST in his unremitteed/unforgivn sins, which is not biblically possible at all.


Then you post "we work after God saves us"

Can one NOT do these works AFTER he is saved yet still be saved?



Faith only says one would not have to do ANY WORKS BEFORE or AFTER he is saved.