Salvation Not Possible Without Works

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JGIG

Senior Member
Aug 2, 2013
2,295
167
63
I've attempted to read the last 10 or 15 pages of this thread, and find that the same stuff is being hashed over and over and over.

I'm done here. Why supposed believers want to preach bad news to other believers to make them doubt the Work of Christ is beyond me. Using contextual Scripture, I and a few others have SOUNDLY defended the Gospel of Grace. In my opinion, it's time to step away, let them have what they think is the last word (it's not - the Gospel will always Always ALWAYS stand \o/), and wait for the next opportunity to contend for the simple Truths of the Gospel. This thread has reached the point where the same people are arguing the same points and new folks coming upon the thread find its length not worth the time to pick through.

Let our side's position rest.

There will be other, more profitable opportunities to contend for the faith.

As my Granny used to say, this thread has "had the biscuit".

Grace and peace,
-JGIG
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You are the one fighting a lost cause. You refuse to accept Scriptures in the context that they were written. Seems to me you just want to argue. And all of your lol's, and "rolling eyes" at the beginning of your posts add nothing and only make you look weak,
lol.

Make me look weak.

I would rather lol then be as some people and get angry, and do nothing but attack people with things whihc are not true (as happens so much)

So show me. What scripture have I Ignored?

The TWO they keep posting. or the 20 or so that others have showed them?

Should we follow God or them?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I don't either, he said be born again once, you were already born once, you must be born "again" this time of "water and of spirit" in other words water baptism.
Nope.

This is the time of spirit baptism.

If you want to be born of men, The get baptized, If you want to be born of God. Then trust him and let him do all the work.


The spirit does two things at the moment of faith.

1. He washes us (titus 3 5) (baptism of the spirit)
2. Anoints, or comes into us through a new birth as he regenerates our dead souls.

yet another more believable interpretation of water here, which would fit the rest of scripture.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Nicodemus questioned being born again, he like you thought natural birth a second time,
Thanks you just proved what I told alligator. that all you know how to do is make false accusations.

Why would I think it means to be born physically a second time. Dude if your going to try to convince me of you belief, you could at least give me the common courtesy to interpret what I say correctly and not make false accusations against me.


Jesus said one must be born again, and the second time (remember the word again), the second time of water and of spirit.
No. He said one must be born of both water and spirit. your adding the words (second time) to the passage. Do not add to scripture what is not there

Water = physical. Spirit = spiritual. There is no other way to take those verses.

What he DID NOT say, you must be born again of spirit (you already had a natural birth)
He never said you had to be born again of water, Again your adding to the word.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
And just how do we get we get into Christ ?See the attached verse Galatians 3:25-27 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Yep..

Again, the VERB BAPTIZO (why did the english interpretors not TRANSLATE the word instead of transliterate it? No other ancient text was interpreted to english this way..hint hint) INTO CHRIST.. (NOT WATER)

Why are you guys trying to add to the word of God?

baptizo DOES NOT MEAN WATER!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Let's take it in context, because I do not see where Jesus says you most be born again of water and spirit, Jesus says you must be born (once) of water and spirit.

"Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

"Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

"Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
- John 3:3-8 NASB​
amen.

If you do not know where it comes from. Then how can it be water baptism. Because then YOU WOULD KNOW WHERE IT CAME FROM!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest

No, it was a figurative, a transition from Pharaoh to Moses, it was not an actual baptism.


Yes it was an actual baptism. They were PLACED INTO MOSES. Moses was the HEAD.



and how do you get immersed into Christ?
How?

By the actual translation of the greek word. Not some english transliteration which HAS NO MEANING IN AND OF ITSELF.
The word is NOT NATIVE to the english language, so we do not get the interpretation from an english dictionary

Placed into, or immersed mean the same. I AM IN CHRIST. and he is IN ME

Romans 6:3-4 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Yep I was baptized into his death also.

But notice something here. I have YET to be baptized into his resurrection. That is a future event. Proof it is not water baptism. because I still have one more aspect of my spiritual baptism to be completed. My ressurection to eternal life.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I doubt many would read. I was going to look up so uses of the word in ancient text outside of scripture and the LXX.. But this explains it quite well.

for those who do read. I hope it blesses you as much as it has blessed me.


the following is taken from weist.. word studies in the greek new testament..

Baptize, baptism, these two words are not native to the English language, therefore do not have any intrinsic meaning of their own. The only rightful meaning they can have is the one derived from the Greek word of which they are the spelling. The verb is spelled Baptizo, from which a slight change in spelling we get our worde baptize, the noun is baptisma, and taking off the last letter we have baptism.
we will study these words first in their classic usage. The word baptizo is related to another greek word bapto. the latter meant to dip, dip under. it was used of the smith tempering the red hot steel. it was also used of the sense of to dip in die, to colour or steep. it was used in the act of dieing the hair, and of glazing earthen vessels. it was used as a proverb in the sense of "steeping someone in crimson". that is giving him a bloddy caxcomb. It meant also to fill by dipping in, to draw. It was used of a ship that dipped, that is sank. Baptiso the related word meant to dip repeatedly. it was used of the act of sinking ships. it meant also to bathe. it was used in the phrase soaked in wine. where the word soaked, is the meaning of baptizo. it is found in the phrase overhead and ears in debt, where the word overhead and ears, are the graphic nature of what the word meant. the word here therefor means completely submerged. our present day english equivilent would be sunk. A baptes is one who dips or dyes. a baptisis is a dipping, bathing, a washing, a drawing of water. A baptisma is that which is dipped, a baptisteron is a bathing place, a baptistes is one that dips, a dyer, baptos means dipped, dyed. bright colored, drawn like water.
Baptizo is used in the 9th book of the odyssey, where the hissing of the burning eye of the cyclops is compaired to the sound of water where the smith dips ( baptizo) a piece of iron, tempering it. , in the battle of frogs and mice, it is said that a mouse thrust a frog with a reed, and the frogged leaped over the water, dying ( baptizo ) the weater with blood. Euripides uses the word as a ship which goes down in the water and does not come back to the surface. Lucian dreams that he has seen a huge bird shot with a mighty arrow, and as it flies high in the air, it dies ( baptizo) the earth with his blood. in Xenophon's Anabasis, we have the instance where the Greek soldiers placed ( baptizo) the points of their spears in a bowl of blood.
We come now to the usage of these words in the koine greek, giving examples from the papyri, the LXX, and the new testament.
In secular documents of the koine period, moulton and Milligan report the following uses of baptise.. A submerged boat, ceremonial ablusions, a person flooded or overwhelmed in calamities. they say that the word was used in its metaphorical sense even among the uneducated of people. . A biblical example of this is found in our Lords speaking of his passion as a baptism ( matt 10: 38), these scholars report the use of bapto as referring to fullers and dyers. the word is used of colored garments, and of wool to be dyed. the word baptisma is found in a question regaurding a new baptism someone is reported to be preaching. This use of the noun is peculiar to the N.T. and to ecclesiastical writers.
In the LXX we have in leviticus 4: 6 the words, and the priest shall dip ( bapto) his finger in the blood, and sprinkle (prosraino) of the blood seven times before the Lord. Here the word Bapto is found juxtaposition to prostriano, a verb closely allied with prozrantizo, baptiso meaning to dip, the latter verb to sprinkle
In the NT we have the rich man asking that lazerus dip ( bapto) his finger in water and cool his tongue. ( luke 16: 24 ). In Heb 9: 10, Baptisma is translated washings and refers to the ceremonial ablusions of Judaism. In Mark 7: 4 Baptisma is used of the ceremonial washings of cups, pots, brazen vessels and tables, Baptisma is used in Matt 3: 7 and baptizo in matt 3: 16 and 1 cor 14 of the rite of water baptism. In Mark 10: 38 our Lord speaks of his sufferings on the cross as the baptisma with which he is to be baptizo.
In these examples we see various uses of the words bapto and baptizo we discover three distinct usages, a mechanical, a ceremonial and a metaphoricle one.
The mechanical usage can be illustrated by the action of the smith dipping the hot iron in water, tempering it, or the dyer dipping the cloth in the dye for the purpose of dying it. these instances of the use of our greek word, give us the following defenition of the word in its mechanical usage. the word refers to the introduction or placing of a person or thing into a new environment or into union with something else, as to alter its condition or its relationship to its previous environment or condition. While the word, we found, had other uses, yet the one that predominated above the others was the mechanical one. Observe how perfectly the meaning is in accord with the usage of the word in rom 6: 3- 4. where the believing sinner is baptized into vital union with Jesus Christ. The believing sinner is introduced or placed in Christ, thus coming into union with him. By that action, he is taken out of his old environment and condition in which he had lived, the first adam, and is placed into a new environment and condition, the last Adam. By this action his condition is changed from that of a lost sinner with a totally depraved nature to that of a saint with a divine nature. His relationship to the law of God is changed from that of a guilty sinner to that of a justified saint. All this is accomplish with the act of the Holy Spirit introducing, or placing us into vital union with Jesus Christ. No ceremony of water baptism ever did that! The entire context is supernatural in its character. The greek word here should not be transliterated but translated. The translation should read; " as many were introduced (placed ) into Christ jesus, into his death were introduced. therefore we were buried with him through the aformentioned introduction into his death. The same holds true for 1 cor 12: 13; which should be translated " for through the instrumentality of one spirit, we were all placed into one body." It is because we so often associate the english word "baptism" with the rite of water baptism, that we read that ceremony into Romans 6.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,834
981
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I've attempted to read the last 10 or 15 pages of this thread, and find that the same stuff is being hashed over and over and over.

I'm done here. Why supposed believers want to preach bad news to other believers to make them doubt the Work of Christ is beyond me. Using contextual Scripture, I and a few others have SOUNDLY defended the Gospel of Grace. In my opinion, it's time to step away, let them have what they think is the last word (it's not - the Gospel will always Always ALWAYS stand \o/), and wait for the next opportunity to contend for the simple Truths of the Gospel. This thread has reached the point where the same people are arguing the same points and new folks coming upon the thread find its length not worth the time to pick through.

Let our side's position rest.

There will be other, more profitable opportunities to contend for the faith.

As my Granny used to say, this thread has "had the biscuit".

Grace and peace,
-JGIG
Agreed, and I think anyone reading this thread with an open mind will see the grace message vs the works message. It comes down to whether they will trust in their good works, or trust in Jesus' work. Where is your confidence?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
I've attempted to read the last 10 or 15 pages of this thread, and find that the same stuff is being hashed over and over and over.

I'm done here. Why supposed believers want to preach bad news to other believers to make them doubt the Work of Christ is beyond me. Using contextual Scripture, I and a few others have SOUNDLY defended the Gospel of Grace. In my opinion, it's time to step away, let them have what they think is the last word (it's not - the Gospel will always Always ALWAYS stand \o/), and wait for the next opportunity to contend for the simple Truths of the Gospel. This thread has reached the point where the same people are arguing the same points and new folks coming upon the thread find its length not worth the time to pick through.

Let our side's position rest.

There will be other, more profitable opportunities to contend for the faith.

As my Granny used to say, this thread has "had the biscuit".

Grace and peace,
-JGIG
Indeed scripture tells us that he who is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject.

Perhaps someone can explain why they would place more faith in water baptism than in the blood of Jesus Christ? Why do some demand that water baptism be added to the finished work of Christ? Why if the Father is pleased must man corrupt the perfect work that God has done? I know why did Eve believe the serpent and reject God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,427
6,657
113
e-t.............even if they do read it, they will deny it............. :) (just saying)

Yes, I read it.............thanks
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,427
6,657
113
Indeed scripture tells us that he who is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject.

Perhaps someone can explain why they would place more faith in water baptism than in the blood of Jesus Christ? Why do some demand that water baptism be added to the finished work of Christ? Why if the Father is pleased must man corrupt the perfect work that God has done? I know why did Eve believe the serpent and reject God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!
 
M

MsLimpet

Guest
Since it is Jesus’ blood that cleanses us of our sin, at what point do we come in contact with Jesus’ blood? At what point in the conversion process do we come into contact with the blood of Christ so that we can have our sins washed away by that blood. In Ephesians 1:7, we read, “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.” There is no doubt about it,Je­sus’ blood definitely forgives. In Revelation 1:5, “And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” Thinking about Ephesians 1:7 and Revelation 1:5, we see that it is the blood of Christ that cleanses us. Yes, we are washed in the blood of the Lamb.

But at what point in the plan of salvation do we contact Christ’s blood? If we could learn at what point our sins are removed, at what point our consciences are clean, and at what point our sins have been washed away, then we could know when we have contacted the blood of Jesus. Aren’t you thankful that the Bible tells us the exact point at which we contact Jesus’ blood, and the exact point at which our sins are forgiven?In Acts 22:16. Saul is told, “Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” What is it that washes away sins? According to Ephesians 1:7 and Revelation 1:5 it is the blood of Christ. At what point—according to Acts 22:16—are our sins washed away? It is at the point of baptism, when we properly call on the Lord’s name.
 
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MsLimpet

Guest
MsLimpet: If you are asking honestly, and not just arguing..............what I can offer you is my opinion.......just as everyone els here (including you) is doing........you may read it, you may not, that choice is yours........God bless

http://christianchat.com/blogs/p_rehbein/2595-salvation-i-understand.html
It is not my opinion here, but biblical truths. I am not interested in opinions and if you have anything to discuss, biblically we can discuss it on this thread. You cannot argue with the truth.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,427
6,657
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It is not my opinion here, but biblical truths. I am not interested in opinions and if you have anything to discuss, biblically we can discuss it on this thread. You cannot argue with the truth.
So, you didn't read the Article/blog..........

I do have one final question for you...........(well, maybe two)

You stated in another comment of yours that people who disagree with YOUR understanding of Scripture were "twisting Scripture." How is it possible that YOU are the FINAL AUTHORITY on the interpretation of Scripture?

You, me, and everyone else here who does anything MORE than post a quotation of Scripture ARE posting their "OPINION/Interpretation" of the meaning of said Scripture. For you to believe you are not reveals far more to me than any words you can post..............

If you want to DENY the precious blood of Jesus Christ, that is surely your right and choice..........

Go with God...............I will refrain from speaking with you again...........
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Since it is Jesus’ blood that cleanses us of our sin, at what point do we come in contact with Jesus’ blood? At what point in the conversion process do we come into contact with the blood of Christ so that we can have our sins washed away by that blood. In Ephesians 1:7, we read, “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.” There is no doubt about it,Je*sus’ blood definitely forgives. In Revelation 1:5, “And from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” Thinking about Ephesians 1:7 and Revelation 1:5, we see that it is the blood of Christ that cleanses us. Yes, we are washed in the blood of the Lamb.
When we are placed into union with his death. When we are washed by the spirit (titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have donem by by his mercy he SAVED US, by the WASHING and renewal of the HS)

But at what point in the plan of salvation do we contact Christ’s blood? If we could learn at what point our sins are removed, at what point our consciences are clean, and at what point our sins have been washed away, then we could know when we have contacted the blood of Jesus. Aren’t you thankful that the Bible tells us the exact point at which we contact Jesus’ blood, and the exact point at which our sins are forgiven?In Acts 22:16. Saul is told, “Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” What is it that washes away sins? According to Ephesians 1:7 and Revelation 1:5 it is the blood of Christ. At what point—according to Acts 22:16—are our sins washed away? It is at the point of baptism, when we properly call on the Lord’s name.
we know when. When we are justified.
 
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MsLimpet

Guest
When we are placed into union with his death. When we are washed by the spirit (titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have donem by by his mercy he SAVED US, by the WASHING and renewal of the HS)



we know when. When we are justified.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)

There are two applications of the word righteousness in the Scriptures. Here, in Titus, the washing or bath of regeneration refers to baptism. It means the washing or bath connected with regeneration. Here the righteousness which we did that did not bring salvation is placed in contrast with baptism. When Jesus came to John to be baptized of him, "John would have hindered him.... but Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness" (Matt. 3:14, 15), making baptism a part of righteousness.

There is a righteousness of God, and there is a righteousness that comes through the ways and works of man. Baptism is a part of God's way of making man righteous. So is a renewing of the Holy Spirit. The Jews were not saved on account of any righteousness they had done before Christ came to merit it but moved by his own mercy to men he saved them through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. He first sent his Spirit to renew man. The Spirit came to the apostles, through them preached Christ to the world, produced faith, changed the heart, directed the life anew, and the heart renewed, the person was baptized into Christ, put off the old man of sin now dead, was buried with him in Christ, washed away his sins, and arose to a new life in Jesus Christ.

The relation of these facts to each other and the connection of each of them to the remission of sins, entrance into the name of Christ, God, and salvation by the same word, settle beyond dispute that they are for the same end or thing. Man must believe into Christ, but his believing carries him through repentance and baptism before he is in Christ. Repentance comes from faith, but it leads through baptism to the remission of sins. Faith that stops short of repentance and baptism does not carry the believer into Christ. These facts settle the office of faith, repentance, and baptism.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,427
6,657
113
When we are placed into union with his death. When we are washed by the spirit (titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have donem by by his mercy he SAVED US, by the WASHING and renewal of the HS)



we know when. When we are justified.
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)

There are two applications of the word righteousness in the Scriptures. Here, in Titus, the washing or bath of regeneration refers to baptism. It means the washing or bath connected with regeneration. Here the righteousness which we did that did not bring salvation is placed in contrast with baptism.
there is one problem with your summation. Which trumps everything else you said. And makes this the last comment which will be said on this subject, unless you really want to discuss it, And not just tell us your view.

Paul tells Titus (and us) that it is the HS who does the washing. Not water, and not any man dunking us in water.


Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Titus 3:5 (KJV)

Notice again, Who does the washing..

OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

It does not say of men

It does not say of water

it does not say of water baptism.

IT SAYS OF (in other words, by) THE HOLY SPIRIT.