Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Because you cannot understand the difference between righteous works, and works of merit gives you no right to attack another member, keep your argument with me, we are not done yet...

1. I do understand the difference between a righteous work and a work of merit my friend, It is you who does not understand.
2. Jesus showed what a righteous work was by his life. As he said, He did NOTHING for his self. Everything he did was for the benefit of others.

That is a righteous work.

A work of merit (also known as self righteousness, or carnality) is any work which benefits self.

You see, You did the work of baptism to benefit yourself. (you think you will recieve the washing of regeneration by it)

When I was baptised, I did it to benifit others. It was not for self gratification. Self gain. Or anything to do with self.

So here you see the same act done by two different people yet with a diffferent attitude.

One has the attitude of the pharisee. (see what I did God) One has the attitude of the sinner (I do nto deserve to even do this, But I will do it, because I know you will use it for the benefit of others.)

Paul never said righteous works are not required to be saved, he said to the Jews who were keeping the Law of Moses that works of merit (which WAS the Law of Moses) would not save you, but Grace through faith.

Paul said not of works lest any man should boast. He spoke of self righteous works. (thus the term boast)

Your adding self righteous works because you do it to benefit yourself. Your doing it to merit salvation.

He said once faith has come there were no longer need for works:

Galatians 3:25 (NKJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

See here where the "door was opened to the Gentiles" :

Acts 14:27 (NKJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Now when they had come and gathered the church together, they reported all that God had done with them, and that He had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.

what good is a door opened to the Gentiles "if they don't go through the door"

You are clueless to what righteous work is and I feel sorry for you thinking God will save you for doing absolutely nothing to accept what is given to you.

I am clueless??

Why thanks. The funny thing is, You very post in which you claim I am clueless. Has proven you do not have any idea what a righteous work is. Your claiming a work of merit is righteous, Yet it is not righteous. Yuo can not even make up your mind, You make up your own rules.

 

[SeaBass]

The third option being, and has been stated since the beginning of this thread, is that works are a natural out-flow of being born-again and receiving the fruit of the Spirit.

You do not realize you are refuting your own argument and proving my point when you post things like you did above.

Can a Christian be saved if he does not have this "out-flowing of works"?


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Fatih only proponents have said a Christian does works AFTER he is saved for those works prove he is saved.


So can a Christian be saved if he does not do these post-salvation works that prove he is saved?

You do not seem to realize no matter if you answer this question with a "yes" of "no" you have lost your argument because of your clinging to the false man-made teaching of faith only.

If you answer this question with a 'no' - no he cannot be saved without doing those post-salvation works, then you have just made salvation CONDITIONAL upon doing those post salvation works. You made those post-salvation works a requirement, a necessity, an essentiaility for salvation.


If you answer this question with a "yes" - yes he can be save WITHOUT doing those post-salvation works then you are refuting the premise. The prmise is he must do those post-salvation works to prove he is saved, yet lack of doing those post salvation works would prove he is NOT saved. Then again, you make salvation CONDITIONAL upon those post-salvation works.



This would be so comical if it were not so sad.

 

[SeaBass]

Totally false conclusion. How does one merit retaining a gift?

Because God's free gift of savlation is not UNCONDITIONAL but is CONDITIONAL upon man's obedience. As long as man meets the condition of obedience he receives the free gift.

How does one undo what God alone has done? Salvation is by the determinate will of God not of man.

Nowhere has God said salvation is UNCONDITIONAL. God determines the terms in HOW man is saved, therefore man must CONDITIONALLY meet those terms set by God upon HIs free gift.

You are serving you own self righteousness not submitting yourself to Gods righteousness.

No, you simply avoided answering a tough question for the faith only advocates. So here it is again:

As Paul tells me in Rom 6:16, one is either serving 1) sin unto death or 2 ) OBEDIENCE unto righteousness. I serve #2, obedience unto righteousness. Which do you serve?

You are not comprehending Abraham at all. Abraham was obedient because he believed God. Abraham never trusted in what he did but in what God said.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

What I comprehend is that Abraham had an FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE which is why it was reckoned righteous by God. I also comprehend that nowhere does the bible say he was reckoned righteous by "faith only".

 

[SeaBass]

You just contradicted yourself.

On the one hand you said they do nto save.

On the other hand, You say they do save (maintain)

which is it?? You can;t have it both ways

Thats like saying I gave you this precious gift which is more precious than fine gold (as scripture calls our salvation) as a downpayment for yuo to do what I tell yuo to do. If you do not. I will take it away.

That was never a gift to begin with. It still had to be EARNED as a reward for good work which you have done.

I said WORKS OF MERIT do not save.

Works of merit and good works are NOT the same thing. Eph 2:10 God before ordained that Christians walk in good works NOT walk in works of merit.

 

[Jabberjaw]

1. I do understand the difference between a righteous work and a work of merit my friend, It is you who does not understand.
2. Jesus showed what a righteous work was by his life. As he said, He did NOTHING for his self. Everything he did was for the benefit of others.

That is a righteous work.

You agree that baptism is a work, and say it isn't required, yet Jesus makes baptism a requirement of righteousness :

Matthew 3:14-15 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?" [SUP]15 [/SUP]But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.

one cannot enter the kingdom and not be righteous, and one is not righteous if one is not baptized.

A work of merit (also known as self righteousness, or carnality) is any work which benefits self.

You see, You did the work of baptism to benefit yourself. (you think you will recieve the washing of regeneration by it)

When I was baptised, I did it to benifit others. It was not for self gratification. Self gain. Or anything to do with self.

So here you see the same act done by two different people yet with a diffferent attitude.

Yes, I did it because it is a command of Christ, I obeyed Him, you did it for self, because if you did it thinking he did not require it, who else did you do it for?

One has the attitude of the pharisee. (see what I did God) One has the attitude of the sinner (I do nto deserve to even do this, But I will do it, because I know you will use it for the benefit of others.)

Yes, as you say "see what I did God" and "attitude of the pharisee", you did it for an outward showing of an inward faith, to be seen of men.

I did it to please God because I obeyed the command of His Son Mark 16:16

Paul said not of works lest any man should boast. He spoke of self righteous works. (thus the term boast)

He spoke of those Jews that were keeping the Law of Moses. if they could keep the Law of Moses (which they can't but if they could) they could boast.

I am clueless??

Yep

 

[zag1972]

Yes we are saved by grace, and not by works, but it's not by the works of the Law that can't save us. We are saved by God's good grace, but it requires faith in his Son, and faith without the works of Christ's new law and covenant is dead faith. Abraham was counted as being faithful only when he acted out his faith by being obedient to what God asked him to do.

 

[SeaBass]

Ah yes,

Why did Noah build the ark?

He trusted God and believed him.

Why did Abraham try to sacrifice his son?

He trusted God could raise him from the dead

Why did David kill goliath?

He trusted God would have the victory, and had no trust in himself.

All these people had faith, it was their faith which saved them. If they did not have faith. THEY WOULD NOT HAVE DONE THE WORK.

Noah would never have built the ark

Abraham would never have even taken his son up the mountain

David would have ran from Goliath.

True faith produces work. But it is not the work which saved, it is the FAITH

If Noah had 'faith only" he would not have done the work of building the ark but sat down and "believe only" that God would save him anyway without building the ark.


You post "True faith produces work"


Are those works that faith produces necessary for a Chrisian to be saved?


If you say "no", then you are saying one can be saved by a FALSE faith.

If you say "yes", then you are admitting works are necessary for one to have a true faith and be saved.

 

[notuptome]

Because God's free gift of savlation is not UNCONDITIONAL but is CONDITIONAL upon man's obedience. As long as man meets the condition of obedience he receives the free gift.

This makes God to be a liar. Gifts are not and can not be conditional. Only wicked, evil men give conditional gifts.

Nowhere has God said salvation is UNCONDITIONAL. God determines the terms in HOW man is saved, therefore man must CONDITIONALLY meet those terms set by God upon HIs free gift.

Circular reasoning on your part. God determined how man would be saved ever before He created man. God has clearly laid out in His word that salvation is a gift and that it cannot be earned. Never in the history of man has salvation been earned.

No, you simply avoided answering a tough question for the faith only advocates. So here it is again:

As Paul tells me in Rom 6:16, one is either serving 1) sin unto death or 2 ) OBEDIENCE unto righteousness. I serve #2, obedience unto righteousness. Which do you serve?

I am saved by grace, grace cannot be merited or earned or have anything added to it by my efforts. I can only give God thanks for His great gift which He has given to me the least worthy to receive it. The heart of your position is nonsense.

What I comprehend is that Abraham had an FAITHFUL OBEDIENCE which is why it was reckoned righteous by God. I also comprehend that nowhere does the bible say he was reckoned righteous by "faith only".

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. The instant anyone adds to grace they diminish grace and make it useless. It is either God's way or no way at all. Always it has been the same. God Who pondereth the hearts saves according to His mercy and grace. God knows that all men are disobedient and God has concluded all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[cfultz3]

This would be a good thing if he was not teaching these works save us. We could agree if we all admitted these works are an outpouring of our gratitude for God keeping his unconditional promise to us, and knowing god is always faithfull. Which causes us to place our faith in him, and do those works.

Indeed, the only required work from God is 'to believe' in the One He sent, and as Hebrews tells us, and that is an active believe.

Because of my gratitude for His most gracious act through His Son, I do those things of His will, that is, I love, not because of salvation-lost being dangled before me, but because I want to show Him my gratitude.

But, then again, what if the time comes where I become weary of gratitude and gradually wean off of praising and start complaining because I am not satisfied with what God is doing before my very eyes? What if, as a child, I begin to resist Him on the path He desires me to walk on and stopped learning His ways? I pray that such a heart will not be found in me. I hope I will remain firm (faithful) until the end.

You are right, God is always faithful...and will remain true to His part of the Covenant. And because I trust Him to remain faithful, then I hope I will remain faithful also so that I do enter into His rest, seeing that it was their faithlessness by which God did not permit them to have entered in.

So, yes. You are correct in saying that it is God's faithfulness which causes us to trust Him and by which trust, we do those works of His will.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I am saying you fail to understand what she is saying, this is easily concluded by the simple fact I agree with her, and you disagree with me, therefore it is your miss understanding that is the problem, and not her interpretation of anything.

And again you would be wrong. Because the way she interprets it is the way you already said is not found in scripture. Her interpretation does not fit the one you claim is in scripture.

There is no way around it without TWISTING what the words LITERALLY say

Your not worth saving, but by his Grace he has offered it to you, all you need to do is obey the righteous commands of his son and God will give it to you.

This is a contradiction.

I am not worthy. But I have to work to make myself worthy. Then it would not be grace, it would be a debt (which God owes me for work done) or a reward. For work done.

Either way it is not of grace

It is still free, you cannot earn it, but you must go through the set conditions of receiving the gift...

Then it is not free. It is paid for with you doing those conditions. Which means yuo are paying for what you are receiving.

Imagine if I offered a bunch of people something, and said it is free. Then required a set of conditions which must be met to give it to them. I would be sued for false advertizing by all the people who came to get my FREE gift.

I have no doubt a 3rd grader, if you told him I will give you a free piece of candy, all you have to do is go to the desk and take one out of the jar, and he would not feel as though he worked for that piece of candy,

lol. Yet it is still a work. And it was not free. I required him to go get it. (we are talking literal things here. Yes they may not THINK he worked for it. But in reality he did, and it was not free in the literal sense of the word)

To be free. I would have to give it to him where he stood.

It takes a twisted educated reject to come to that conclusion.

On the contrary, It would take a person who takes the word free literally. Which is what God does.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Has anyone ever seen a new born baby do any work?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yeah, He had to push himself out. Then smack himself so he could start breathing, Then cut his own cord so he is freed from the bondage of the chord.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I said WORKS OF MERIT do not save.

Works of merit and good works are NOT the same thing. Eph 2:10 God before ordained that Christians walk in good works NOT walk in works of merit.

Dude.

Merit. Means you are working TO EARN SOMETHING. Your trying to MERIT something by the work or payment you are giving.

ANY Work which merits a reward, a wage or anything is a work of merit.

A GOOD WORK is a work you do NOT EXPECTING ANYTHING IN RETURN. that is why it is NOT A WORK OF MERIT.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If Noah had 'faith only" he would not have done the work of building the ark but sat down and "believe only" that God would save him anyway without building the ark.


You post "True faith produces work"


Are those works that faith produces necessary for a Chrisian to be saved?


If you say "no", then you are saying one can be saved by a FALSE faith.

If you say "yes", then you are admitting works are necessary for one to have a true faith and be saved.

Good bye. Have a nice day, I would say I would see you in heaven, But it is not looking like I will.

You have no desire to discuss anything, Your continued twisting of things is getting old..

news flash.

IF NOAH DID NOT DO ANY WORK. HE HAD NO FAITH!!

in other words. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FAITH ALONE..

But we ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS.

Salvation and work is a BYPRODUCT OF FAITH.

 

[MsLimpet]

Biblical faith includes works. If we are going to be pleasing to God and go to Heaven, there are certain works that we must do. I know that this may seem contrary to what you have heard. You may be used to listening to people who tell you that you do not have to do anything because God’s grace will cover you if you say, “Lord, Lord.” But we have already seen that is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that true, biblical faith includes works.

In James 2:14 we see where James is talking about this very thing. The people in James’ day had the same problem that we see today. People wanted to simply believe in God, and then let that be it. James asked, “What does it profit if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?” The answer is “No.” A person can say he has faith, but if he does not have works to go along with it, then that person’s faith cannot save him. James went on to say,“If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, ‘Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,’ but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?” (vss. 15-16).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Indeed, the only required work from God is 'to believe' in the One He sent, and as Hebrews tells us, and that is an active believe.

Because of my gratitude for His most gracious act through His Son, I do those things of His will, that is, I love, not because of salvation-lost being dangled before me, but because I want to show Him my gratitude.

But, then again, what if the time comes where I become weary of gratitude and gradually wean off of praising and start complaining because I am not satisfied with what God is doing before my very eyes? What if, as a child, I begin to resist Him on the path He desires me to walk on and stopped learning His ways? I pray that such a heart will not be found in me. I hope I will remain firm (faithful) until the end.

would your physical parents kick you out and stop being your parents if you did this?

Be honest!

You are right, God is always faithful...and will remain true to His part of the Covenant. And because I trust Him to remain faithful, then I hope I will remain faithful also so that I do enter into His rest, seeing that it was their faithlessness by which God did not permit them to have entered in.

So, yes. You are correct in saying that it is God's faithfulness which causes us to trust Him and by which trust, we do those works of His will.

yes, amen

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Biblical faith includes works.

Biblical faith PRODUCES WORKS.

 

[cfultz3]

would your physical parents kick you out and stop being your parents if you did this?

Be honest!

Maybe after 40 years they would become disguised with me

Love you brother.......

 

[BenFTW]

Works of merit do not save, but good works, EPh 2:10, Matt 25; 1 Jn 3:17; 1 Jn 1:7 maintains one's salvation.

You post "Obedient works" don't maintain your salvation."

Which implies a Christian can become a disobedient, unrighteous sinner yet still be saved, which is not biblically possible for the unrighteous will be lost, 1 Cor 6:9.

As Paul tells me in Rom 6:16, one is either serving 1) sin unto death or 2 ) OBEDIENCE unto righteousness. I serve #2, obedience unto righteousness. Which do you serve?


Abraham had an obedient faith. Not a single verse saysAbrham was justified or reckoned righteous by "faith only"

You'd be going contrary to the Word to call a child of God a sinner. No where in the NT do you find in the Word a believer who sins, even a lot such as the Corinthian church, being called a sinner. Rather, they are called saints.
You said. "The unrighteous will be lost", but we aren't the unrighteous. We are the righteousness of God, in Jesus Christ.


Your last statement is dumbfounding. It's like, "Is this guy serious?" I mean, really? "Not a single verse says Abraham was justified or reckoned righteous by "faith only"." I guess I will just have to post the many verses that say so.

5 Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:5-6

Genesis 15:6 is quoted four times by the apostle Paul and once by James. (Romans 4:3, Romans 4:9, Romans 4:22, Galatians 3:6, James 2:23)
I will post the different verses down below that used Genesis 15:6.
Romans 4:3

King James Version (KJV)
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:9

King James Version (KJV)
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Romans 4:22

King James Version (KJV)
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


Galatians 3:6

King James Version (KJV)
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.


The error people make with Paul and James in reference to Abraham is that Paul and James are speaking of two different events in the life of Abraham. One event being when the Lord spoke of the many stars as being the many descendants Abraham would have and he believed God and God accounted it to him for righteousness. The other event is where Abraham went to sacrifice his son, Issac, which is the one James refers too. Separate events, and Abraham was accounted righteous far before sacrificing Issac strictly on belief/faith.

 

[MsLimpet]

Biblical faith PRODUCES WORKS.

I think I shall agree with your statement...

In James 2:21 the Bible says, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?” Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made complete or perfect? And then the scripture was fulfilled. And James is about to quote the exact same passage in Romans 4:3. James says, “And then the scripture was fulfilled.” When was it fulfilled- after the works. For “‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness, and he was called the friend of God.’” It was not until after Abraham obeyed the Lord, it was not until after Abraham followed the Lord that it could be said that it was accounted to him for righteousness.

 

[BenFTW]

You do not realize you are refuting your own argument and proving my point when you post things like you did above.

Can a Christian be saved if he does not have this "out-flowing of works"?


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Fatih only proponents have said a Christian does works AFTER he is saved for those works prove he is saved.


So can a Christian be saved if he does not do these post-salvation works that prove he is saved?

You do not seem to realize no matter if you answer this question with a "yes" of "no" you have lost your argument because of your clinging to the false man-made teaching of faith only.

If you answer this question with a 'no' - no he cannot be saved without doing those post-salvation works, then you have just made salvation CONDITIONAL upon doing those post salvation works. You made those post-salvation works a requirement, a necessity, an essentiaility for salvation.


If you answer this question with a "yes" - yes he can be save WITHOUT doing those post-salvation works then you are refuting the premise. The prmise is he must do those post-salvation works to prove he is saved, yet lack of doing those post salvation works would prove he is NOT saved. Then again, you make salvation CONDITIONAL upon those post-salvation works.



This would be so comical if it were not so sad.

I genuinely think you don't understand how stupid of a question that is. This would be so comical if it were not so sad.