Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Jabberjaw]

Some will make a charge of ’easy believism’ against those who preach the Gospel of Grace, using this single verse from Scripture:

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that — and shudder.
​

They then try to equate that belief of demons with faith in Christ. Demons do understand – they know Who Jesus is – they believe that fact – but they don’t put their faith in His Work. It is not the same thing at all. The unspoken accusation here, whether intended or not, is that belief by humans, without the added performance of Law, is no better than the belief of demons. What a motivator, eh?!

Broken people who have been saved by Grace through Faith, in the midst of healing and restoring by the Spirit of God, don’t believe like the demons believe. They are placing their faith and trust in the God Who came in the flesh to die a horrible death to satisfy the wrath that should have come on them and are instead receiving complete forgiveness that He freely gives, enabling Him to impute to them the Righteousness of Christ, resulting in New Life – the indwelling of the Holy Spirit – making them a New Creation in Christ (Romans 5 and 2 Corinthians 5:16-21)!


No, the belief that demons exercise is something quite different indeed.

-JGIG

How can you say "They are placing their faith and trust in the God Who came in the flesh to die a horrible death to satisfy the wrath that should have come on them and are instead receiving complete forgiveness that He freely gives, enabling Him to impute to them the Righteousness of Christ, resulting in New Life" and these people do not do his commands? how can you expect Christ righteousness to be given to one who does not obey Christ?

Baptism is a command :

Acts 22:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

Can a sinner be imputed righteousness?

 

[Jabberjaw]

I agree with you on The Church of Jesus Christ of which I have been baptized into by the Holy Spirit. I have baptized in water also, which as a anti type which saves because of my good profession , life of faith works and recognized by many real Christians as a brother in Christ. I care not if I am called a heretic; They will all have to apology to me and Christ at the Judgment seat. What is an antitype? I think it is a type in a "back handed way" (anti: against, opposite) water destroyed in the flood, but water in a "sense", in baptism "saves" . It is a "saving grace". Love to all, Hoffco

Yes, with Noah, the water washed away the sins of the world saving Noah, the antitype is water washes away our individual sins saving us by spiritually (through the Holy Spirit) putting us in contact with the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[JGIG]

How can you say "They are placing their faith and trust in the God Who came in the flesh to die a horrible death to satisfy the wrath that should have come on them and are instead receiving complete forgiveness that He freely gives, enabling Him to impute to them the Righteousness of Christ, resulting in New Life" and these people do not do his commands? how can you expect Christ righteousness to be given to one who does not obey Christ?

Baptism is a command :

Acts 22:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

Can a sinner be imputed righteousness?

You really don't know the Gospel, do you.

Yes. A sinner can be imputed righteousness.

You need to listen to this: God’s Solution to Man’s Problem – Life! – Study notes available HERE

-JGIG

 

[Jabberjaw]

You really don't know the Gospel, do you.

Yes. A sinner can be imputed righteousness.

You need to listen to this: God’s Solution to Man’s Problem – Life! – Study notes available HERE

-JGIG

Yes I know the Gospel, it is all I use, I don't need the study notes of men, that is where man falls short, listening to so called scholars, or worse, un-scholarly people and their web sites, you know satan was a scholar, he quotes scripture, he told eve what God really meant.

Baptism is a command, there are 8 conversions in the bible, show me one that did not require baptism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not biblcally possible. Can one be sved and NEVER do the works

On one hand, Your right,

But not the way you think.

It is not biblically possible that one can be born of God. Made a child of his. Given his power and his Holy Spirit. and not do work.

Where your mistake comes in is that they are saved BECAUSE of these works. This is not true. They do these works because of the aforementioned things they were given. By the power of God.

of beieivng,repenting of sins, confessing Christ and submitting to baptism for the remission of sins? That is can an unbeliever, impenitnet denier of Christ lost in his unforgiven sins be sved while he remains in that state? No.


You posted "Those who have truly been saved, have been empowered and will do work"

Can the one who has truly been saved not "do work" you speak of here and still be saved?


If you answer "no" then you are making these works a requirement for salvation.

If you answer "yes" you are contradicting your own statement here.

lol..

Nice try.

We are saved when we call out on the name of God and ASK his forgiveness. because we trust in the work of his son.

Out of this salvation. Comes the works he CREATED us to do (eph 2: 10)

If you think you work will cause God to look highly on you and forgive you based on your work. You do not know God whatsoever

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God does not do the works of belieivng

Yes he does, It is the work of God we believe in the one he sent (john 6) thus you call God a liar

repenting

WHo is it who brought us to repentance? Our sinful hatefull self focused selves? If you do not think this is God you have not repented. You are still focused on yourself and Not God

confessing

Who gave us the law, which led us to confession? Did you do this? Did you do the convicting of yourself and cause you to admit you have sinned? Again, Your still to focused on self. Your still carnal if you think you did this work of your own power

and being baptized...

Actually yes he did.

No man can baptize you into the death of Christ. That was 2000 years ago. Only God has the power to take us back 2000 years and place us into his death, Again, Your still to focused on self. You prove you have not repented. And your giving the credit to man for doing the work of God. Jesus calls this blasphemy against his spirit

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, they asked Jesus what work THEY do, not what work GOD will do for them.

And when they asked what work THEY are to do, Jesus did not tell them "do no works else you will be trying to earn your salvation" By your posts here, that is how you would haveanswered their question.

Yet Jesus answered the question by giving the the work of believing to do.

In Acts 2:37 the people asked "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" WE DO and not what works shall God do for us. And again they were commanded to do the works of repentng and submitting to baptism and NOT told to "do nothing, else you try and earn your salvation".

Night and day difference in how Jesus?Peter answered their question and how a faith only advocate would have answered their question.

well I guess I will have to stop discussing with you also. It is obvious yuo have no desire to listen to trtuh.

they asked. what work musr WE DO.

Jesus answerd, IT IS THE WORK OF GOD.

You totally ignore that part of Jesus answer. thus you ignore God.

Have a nice day, And good luck with your works.

If you ever want to discuss things with an open heart and not ignoring words. let me know

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Titus 3:5 tells us that we are to undergo a washing of regeneration.

No, You have this in error.

It does not tell us we HAVE TO DO SOMETHING.

It tells us WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN SOMETHING

Lets look at two differing versions..

yours and mine

In my version it says

[SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, (How did he save us) through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, (By the work of God (the HS))

Now your version

[SUP]5 [/SUP]by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to His mercy, He promises to saved us, if we are washing by the water baptism of regeneration and renewed by that baptism,

as you can see. Your version is not found in the word of God, If you can't get this right, your whole doctrine is based on a false premise

 

[eternally-gratefull]

True, and I am sure most all here will agree that it is obedient faith which the Lord delights in. One can only imagine what would had happened if Abraham was not obedient in His faith when he was commanded to sacrifice his son. We Christians are indeed blessed by his hearkening, as much as we are extremely blessed by the obedience of the Son.

This would be a good thing if he was not teaching these works save us. We could agree if we all admitted these works are an outpouring of our gratitude for God keeping his unconditional promise to us, and knowing god is always faithfull. Which causes us to place our faith in him, and do those works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You don't.

God does.

That's the whole point.

We receive the free gifts of forgiveness, God's Righteousness in Christ, and New Life because of the Resurrection.

Baptism isn't part of the process, it's a public proclamation of one's faith in Christ.

If Baptism is all about you and what you're doing to 'remove your sins', you've missed the Gospel entirely.

I know I said I was done, but sheesh - 'How WE do to get clean, remove our sins?' You are POWERLESS to 'get clean, remove your sins'.

We enter in to what God already did 2000 years ago in Christ by faith. You can do NOTHING to remove one sin. If you could, then Christ would not have needed to do the Work of the Cross (see Gal. 2).

-JGIG

I am so amazed, that after 2000 years. and having the word of what they did given to us. People still want to be pharisees.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're taking 1 Peter 3:21 out of context (big surprise):

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.​

You do understand that Peter is using water baptism here as a metaphor, right? It's not the water itself that saves anyone, but the resurrection of Christ!

Now for the obvious disconnect of salvation-by-baptism: What of those that Christ made proclamation to? Did they receive Him? When/where was their baptism?

. . . and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.​

The pledge of a clear conscience toward God = a good dunk? No. Baptism is the public proclamation of the pledge - repentance - the change of mind when one ceases to rely on their own works and chooses to rely on and rest in the Work of Christ.

-JGIG

Yes,

He is saying the waters of the flood. Which was Gods wrath on earth. Actually was used to save 8 people. Which was symbolic of how God would save us.

The water of baptism is another symbol. But paul makes a clear warning.

"not the removal of filth (sin) from the flesh (Soul)

It is a good conscious to God. A work or praising the God who saved us. By obeying his command, nothing more nothing less

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Baptizo means immerse or dunk, it does not define what one is immersed or dunked in, Peter said water baptism is what saves us (1 Pet 3:20-21), Eph 4:5 says there is one saving baptism, therefore all that are "baptizo" (dunked, immersed) in water are saved (1 Pet 3:20-21)

1 Peter 3:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. [SUP]21 [/SUP]The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Your right.

But paul does.

1. His death
2. Christ

And again. Peter told ALL to repent. (repent YE which is a plural form of you in the Old English bibles) And let every one of you (Singular form, he did not tell everyone, but only certain individuals) be baptized.

You continued ignoring of what the actual text says speaks volumes.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We have heresy on both sides of this argument. But God only knows who is saved; Both heretics on each side could be saved, I don't know, That is only for God to know. BUT, I control who teaches what in my church; And neither side will teach in my church, nor be a member if they don't agree with my teaching. They would have to leave and find a church that agrees with their heresy. So, if you don't agree with me; Don't try to join my church. You are both are wasting my time. I had an apostolic believer in my church once, as soon as he prayed to "Father Jesus" I invited him to leave and not come back. He also believed in baptismal regeneration. Love to all, Hoffco

so your church is the church of hofco and not the church of God.

ok thanks for letting us know

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You really don't know the Gospel, do you.

Yes. A sinner can be imputed righteousness.

You need to listen to this: God’s Solution to Man’s Problem – Life! – Study notes available HERE

-JGIG

Ah yes..

Romans 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

 

[Jabberjaw]

Now your version

[SUP]5 [/SUP]by works of righteousness which we have done, not according to His mercy, He promises to saved us, if we are washing by the water baptism of regeneration and renewed by that baptism,

as you can see. Your version is not found in the word of God, If you can't get this right, your whole doctrine is based on a false premise

This is how you operate, when your backed into a corner you put words in your opponents mouth (or write what you think they are saying) when in reality you have rewritten your own bible to include your man made doctrine.

I assure you MsLimpet does not have a bible that has your made up words.

Titus 3:5 (NKJV)
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Now there is the version I use, there are two applications of "righteousness" in the scriptures, here the "washing of regeneration" is referring to baptism and you cant stand that, you turn to your man made doctrine and blind your self from what the scripture really says.

Here the righteousness which we did that did not bring salvation is placed in contrast with baptism. When Jesus came to John to be baptized of him, "John would have hindered him.... But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." (Matt. 3:14-15), making baptism a part of righteousness. There is a righteousness of God, and there is a righteousness that comes through the ways and works of man.

Quit twisting others words and read your bible.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is how you operate, when your backed into a corner you put words in your opponents mouth (or write what you think they are saying) when in reality you have rewritten your own bible to include your man made doctrine.

I assure you MsLimpet does not have a bible that has your made up words.

lol..

No. MsLimpits interpretation of the words have to be that way. There is no other way it could be said. by her interpretation.

So your denying that is in a nutshell what she is saying? You must agree with me then.

Titus 3:5 (NKJV)
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Now there is the version I use, there are two applications of "righteousness" in the scriptures, here the "washing of regeneration" is referring to baptism and you cant stand that, you turn to your man made doctrine and blind your self from what the scripture really says.

um.

Not by works of righteousness (good deeds) which we have done, But by his mercy.

Can you explain how mercy can be given when one does a work to EARN IT? Is that really showing mercy to someone?

Here the righteousness which we did that did not bring salvation is placed in contrast with baptism.

Oh it is?? Not by works. What part of NOT BY WORKS do you not get??

When Jesus came to John to be baptized of him, "John would have hindered him.... But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." (Matt. 3:14-15), making baptism a part of righteousness. There is a righteousness of God, and there is a righteousness that comes through the ways and works of man.

Yet God says even doing his works, which he commands, When done to EARN his gift is a work of man not God. Can you explain this?

Quit twisting others words and read your bible.

Your the one twisting.

You claim a work DONE BY GOD. is DONE BY MEN.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is how you operate, when your backed into a corner you put words in your opponents mouth (or write what you think they are saying) when in reality you have rewritten your own bible to include your man made doctrine.

I assure you MsLimpet does not have a bible that has your made up words.

Titus 3:5 (NKJV)
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Now there is the version I use, there are two applications of "righteousness" in the scriptures, here the "washing of regeneration" is referring to baptism and you cant stand that, you turn to your man made doctrine and blind your self from what the scripture really says.

Here the righteousness which we did that did not bring salvation is placed in contrast with baptism. When Jesus came to John to be baptized of him, "John would have hindered him.... But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." (Matt. 3:14-15), making baptism a part of righteousness. There is a righteousness of God, and there is a righteousness that comes through the ways and works of man.

Quit twisting others words and read your bible.

I see Just-Me liked this.

Yet another proof he believes one must work the commands of God to be saved.

Keep it up just-me. You claim you do not believe in works for salvation. But you just LIKED something which claims we must work for salvation. Why do you keep contradicting yourself?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now, SInce as usual. No one seems to want to comment on things I say, But only on what they want to sayl

[SUP]5 [/SUP]not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us,

1. he saved us, Past tense. It was a work which was already completed in us. So how can anyone say this is a COMMAND to do something (like mslimpit said?)

2. It says BY HIS MERCY. Can someone show me how mercy can be earned? Is not mercy something that is done for you when you CAN NOT EARN IT?

through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

1. This is how he says HE SAVED US is it not?
2. How can the WASHING and RENEWAL OF THE HS be completed by men? When it says literally that God is the one doing the work?

and finally.

How can you people wish on a physical act. done by sinfull men who can not even save themselves, will help them get saved? And deny it is the work of God which saves us?

ANd you call us foolish and unlearned??

 

[BenFTW]

Ah yes..

Romans 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

SeaBass' error is that he is trying to pigeon hole you by using a false dichotomy. He is saying that you are saved or not saved based upon this premise, but what he doesn't realize is that there is a third option. The third option being, and has been stated since the beginning of this thread, is that works are a natural out-flow of being born-again and receiving the fruit of the Spirit.

This is like arguing, "You can't be an Olympian unless you enter the Olympics. You can't have the gold medal unless you play." Well, good job Sherlock! That took a lot of brains to figure out. Except by the very definition of Olympian it implies one enters the Olympics and plays and to argue if he doesn't enter and play he is therefore not an Olympian is moot. It is implied. The difference between this analogy of an Olympian and us, as Christians, is that we don't base our victory on our own ability. Matter of fact, I could take the analogy further, the Olympian gives you the gold medal(for free). You have the reward, you have the victory. He did all the work, and it is now imputed to you. He won and gave you the prize.

That is Jesus, he perfectly kept the law and paid the penalty for our sins on the cross (through his death, burial and resurrection), and we are now saved based upon His work. It is imputed to us. He didn't pass us the baton, he gave us the gold.

 

[SeaBass]

Have you not been saying, this whole time, that without good works you will not be saved? Hence, these good works are of merit, in that of your salvation, according to your false doctrine. If lack of good works causes you to lose your salvation, then by definition, they are works of merit.

You are correct this statement is in reference to law, but it is in reference as well to the fact of adding works upon grace. About being "perfected in the flesh." Also, you are mixing two events in the life of Abraham. First he was deemed righteous by God because he believed what the Lord told him. The second event is with sacrificing his son, Issac. The second has to do with justification, not by God but by men.

Paul would tell you the same thing we've been telling you. "Obedient works" don't maintain your salvation. Your salvation is dependent upon Jesus' work. Re-read what I wrote, it may hit you the second time through. If you have to maintain your salvation through good works, then salvation isn't a free gift, it is a reward due. Not of grace, but debt. Jesus did it all, rest in His finished work.

Works of merit do not save, but good works, EPh 2:10, Matt 25; 1 Jn 3:17; 1 Jn 1:7 maintains one's salvation.

You post "Obedient works" don't maintain your salvation."

Which implies a Christian can become a disobedient, unrighteous sinner yet still be saved, which is not biblically possible for the unrighteous will be lost, 1 Cor 6:9.

As Paul tells me in Rom 6:16, one is either serving 1) sin unto death or 2 ) OBEDIENCE unto righteousness. I serve #2, obedience unto righteousness. Which do you serve?


Abraham had an obedient faith. Not a single verse saysAbrham was justified or reckoned righteous by "faith only"