SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!
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Yes, I fully understand. But Christ has been rejected much in this world, it is the least I can do to recognize a few that reject His Gospel.
It is the natural inclination of man to exult himself, that ego thing. Which is why Christianity is exactly the opossite. Self denial, being a servant, loving even our enemies.
It is the natural inclination of man to exult himself, that ego thing. Which is why Christianity is exactly the opossite. Self denial, being a servant, loving even our enemies.
you know very well i have been agreeing with scripture that the new heart will do the good works God ordained that we walk in.
Romans 8
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies
Romans 5
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And webboast in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but wec also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
JUSTIFIED: do what you want with it.
τινα, to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be, (cf. ὁμοιόω to declare to be like, liken, i. e. compare; ὁσιόω, Wis. 6:11; ἀξιόω, which never means to make worthy, but to judge worthy, to declare worthy, to treat as worthy; see also κοινόω, 2 b.);
a. with the negative idea predominant, to declare guiltless one accused or who may be accused, acquitted of a charge or reproach, (Deuteronomy 25:1; Sir. 13:22 (21), etc.; an unjust judge is saidδικαιοῦν τόν ἀσεβῆ in Exodus 23:7; Isaiah 5:23): ἑαυτόν, Luke 10:29; passive οὐ δεδικαίωμαι, namely, with God, 1 Corinthians 4:4; pregnantly with ἀπό τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν added, to be declared innocent and therefore to be absolved from the charge of sins (cf. Buttmann, 322 (277)), Acts 13:38 (39) (so ἀπόἁμαρτίας, Sir. 26:29; simply, to be absolved, namely, from the payment of a vow, Sir. 18:22 (21)); hence, figuratively, by a usage not met with elsewhere, to be freed, ἀπό τῆς ἁμαρτίας, from its dominion, Romans 6:7, where cf. Fritzsche or ((less fully) Meyer).
b. with the positive idea predominant, to judge, declare, pronounce, righteous and therefore acceptable, (God is said δικαιοῦν δίκαιον, 1 Kings 8:32): ἑαυτόν, Luke 16:15; ἐδικαίωσαν τόνΘεόν, declared God to be righteous, i. e. by receiving the baptism declared that it had been prescribed by God rightly, Luke 7:29; passive by God, Romans 2:13; ἐξ ἔργων ἐδικαιώθη, got his reputation for righteousness (namely, with his countrymen (but see Meyer (edited by Weiss) at the passage)) by works,Romans 4:2; ἐκ τῶν λόγων, by thy words, in contrast with καταδικάζεσθαι, namely, by God,Matthew 12:37. Especially is it so used, in the technical phraseology of Paul, respecting God who judges and declares such men as put faith in Christ to be righteous and acceptable to him, and accordingly fit to receive the pardon of their sins and eternal life (see δικαιοσύνη, 1 c.)
Romans 8
31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies
Romans 5
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And webboast in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but wec also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
JUSTIFIED: do what you want with it.
τινα, to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be, (cf. ὁμοιόω to declare to be like, liken, i. e. compare; ὁσιόω, Wis. 6:11; ἀξιόω, which never means to make worthy, but to judge worthy, to declare worthy, to treat as worthy; see also κοινόω, 2 b.);
a. with the negative idea predominant, to declare guiltless one accused or who may be accused, acquitted of a charge or reproach, (Deuteronomy 25:1; Sir. 13:22 (21), etc.; an unjust judge is saidδικαιοῦν τόν ἀσεβῆ in Exodus 23:7; Isaiah 5:23): ἑαυτόν, Luke 10:29; passive οὐ δεδικαίωμαι, namely, with God, 1 Corinthians 4:4; pregnantly with ἀπό τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν added, to be declared innocent and therefore to be absolved from the charge of sins (cf. Buttmann, 322 (277)), Acts 13:38 (39) (so ἀπόἁμαρτίας, Sir. 26:29; simply, to be absolved, namely, from the payment of a vow, Sir. 18:22 (21)); hence, figuratively, by a usage not met with elsewhere, to be freed, ἀπό τῆς ἁμαρτίας, from its dominion, Romans 6:7, where cf. Fritzsche or ((less fully) Meyer).
b. with the positive idea predominant, to judge, declare, pronounce, righteous and therefore acceptable, (God is said δικαιοῦν δίκαιον, 1 Kings 8:32): ἑαυτόν, Luke 16:15; ἐδικαίωσαν τόνΘεόν, declared God to be righteous, i. e. by receiving the baptism declared that it had been prescribed by God rightly, Luke 7:29; passive by God, Romans 2:13; ἐξ ἔργων ἐδικαιώθη, got his reputation for righteousness (namely, with his countrymen (but see Meyer (edited by Weiss) at the passage)) by works,Romans 4:2; ἐκ τῶν λόγων, by thy words, in contrast with καταδικάζεσθαι, namely, by God,Matthew 12:37. Especially is it so used, in the technical phraseology of Paul, respecting God who judges and declares such men as put faith in Christ to be righteous and acceptable to him, and accordingly fit to receive the pardon of their sins and eternal life (see δικαιοσύνη, 1 c.)
You know whats funny? I was talking to my fiance about this disagreement here on CC. You know what she said to me?
She told me to stop coming here. The reason being, is that all I keep doing is getting into debates. The other thing she said to me, on topic with your ego thing, is that not all people come to a place like CC to actually learn or discuss the bible.
She said to me this basically, if I am to paraphrase "Some people go to just strut their ego. Especially if they explain something about the Bible that nobody knows, then they keep talking about it. Not everybody is there to learn or just discuss the Bible." So yea, with that in mind, I also would like to point out something.
I made a post about people suffering in South Korea right now who need prayers, yet nobody has even looked at it [as of yet] but I can guarantee you, this debate will get tons more attention.
cherry picking again hoping it means what you want it to mean, or just assigning a meaning to fit your theology.
The text says quite plainly that the promise is irrevocable, and that believers are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH. That faith is YOUR faith. NO fruit, you have NO faith. It has nothing to do with man and merit. It is accepting the reality of our existence in that God created us to do the work but we are required to do them with Him, not apart from Him. He does not guarantee salvation without having the evidence, namely your life's work, to show that He did not throw pearls to swine. You need to await until the end, The end determines where you stand, not the beginning.
also irrelevant based on your statement about merit, since not a single opponent ever stated that it is man alone and is merited to him. It has always been the opposite. But that would be acceptable since you have not other evidence you need to create strawmen.
The text says quite plainly that the promise is irrevocable, and that believers are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH. That faith is YOUR faith. NO fruit, you have NO faith. It has nothing to do with man and merit. It is accepting the reality of our existence in that God created us to do the work but we are required to do them with Him, not apart from Him. He does not guarantee salvation without having the evidence, namely your life's work, to show that He did not throw pearls to swine. You need to await until the end, The end determines where you stand, not the beginning.
also irrelevant based on your statement about merit, since not a single opponent ever stated that it is man alone and is merited to him. It has always been the opposite. But that would be acceptable since you have not other evidence you need to create strawmen.
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see this is what I mean.
I can say the exact same thing to you. but what good would it do, and how would it add to the discussion, and what would people see in us if all we did was continue to attack people the way your doing?
I am not the one with the closed mind, I keep asking you questions, I keep seeking to understand why you can believe the way you do. Your the one with the closed mind, You prove it every time you make comments such as you just did.
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It reminds me of the words of Christ.
Matthew 9:5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’?
One whose sins are forgiven, Are saved.
What do you think the term salvation means..are you saying the topic of this op is NOT SALVATION?
Romans 3
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Romans 4
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Romans 5
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Galatians 3
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
now post your definition of justified.
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Romans 4
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Romans 5
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Galatians 3
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
now post your definition of justified.
I don't think you understand the irony of your statement. But thats fine, you think what you want of me. Also, I would honestly look up variance, the reason I brought it up is that debates like this, that have been going on, are actually sinful. You can always read Matthew 5 or quote Titus 3:9-11 on that issue. Basically, I'm saying we should stop arguing, because we aren't supposed to to this degree.
And brother, you know, I have never commented on the way you were rude to more or how you insulted me, but to honestly criticise me for my mannerism and yet not look at what you have done to me? Come on, I suggest you look at all the previous comments you have said to me, and the adjectives you used to describe me before criticising me. Also, I wasn't doing anything insultful anyways. You know as well as I do, that if I ever quote James where it proves my point, you will disagree, or if I quote Matthew and Mark, you will disagree. We have been through this several times in the past. I don't have time for this, and such, I am not going to keep being at variance with you and others here, that is all.
And brother, you know, I have never commented on the way you were rude to more or how you insulted me, but to honestly criticise me for my mannerism and yet not look at what you have done to me? Come on, I suggest you look at all the previous comments you have said to me, and the adjectives you used to describe me before criticising me. Also, I wasn't doing anything insultful anyways. You know as well as I do, that if I ever quote James where it proves my point, you will disagree, or if I quote Matthew and Mark, you will disagree. We have been through this several times in the past. I don't have time for this, and such, I am not going to keep being at variance with you and others here, that is all.
Yes, as so do all of your opponents believe exactly that. But this whole post seems to be based on Justification by faith again, which is not even the issue or the topic of discussion. The topic is whether man is SAVED by faith alone, or that the works that true faith produces in necessary and confirms, makes real, validates, one's faith. In other words, faith is works as described in scripture. It is not faith + works, but faith is always works, because faith does not exist without works. It is a dead, meaningless, non existant faith.
For the sake of EG, and because you are assuming it is talking about works when it is talking about obedience to the law [which is different], I'll post you this before I go:
James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[h=3][/h][h=3]James 2:18[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[h=3]James 2:26[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
Good bye everyone
James 2:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[h=3][/h][h=3]James 2:18[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[h=3]James 2:26[/h]King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
Good bye everyone
E
to which I will ask (even though I have asked this over and over and not once did I get an answer)
Can a person who does not have faith be saved? (dead faith means zero faith zero zip nada)
Yes, James is telling them to prove they have faith. Was he wrong for asking them (us) to prove if our faith is real, or just mere belief)
Yes,
Which is what I have been saying all along.
A body without the spirit is dead. Lifeless. Not saved.
Faith without works is dead, Lifeless, Not able to save.
So how is this saying works save us, And not the faith which produces the works which saves us?
Can a person who does not have faith be saved? (dead faith means zero faith zero zip nada)
Yes, James is telling them to prove they have faith. Was he wrong for asking them (us) to prove if our faith is real, or just mere belief)
Yes,
Which is what I have been saying all along.
A body without the spirit is dead. Lifeless. Not saved.
Faith without works is dead, Lifeless, Not able to save.
So how is this saying works save us, And not the faith which produces the works which saves us?
man is SAVED by faith alone. justified by God based on FAITH in Christ.
that man, CLEARLY having a faith which God considers righteousness, is SEEN to be saved (a good tree) bearing fruit, by what he does. is this really that difficult?
read this if you care to. it's what everyone has been trying to tell you.
Faith and Works | Titus Institute
that man, CLEARLY having a faith which God considers righteousness, is SEEN to be saved (a good tree) bearing fruit, by what he does. is this really that difficult?
read this if you care to. it's what everyone has been trying to tell you.
Faith and Works | Titus Institute
not at all, it is solidly about being saved. It is not about have been SAVED. It is about one taking possession of their eternal existance with Christ, but that promise is given at the end, not the beginning. There is ample opportunity for man to reject Christ during his lifetime. Scripture gives many examples of believers who did not receive the promise because they fell away. Man cannot guarantee his faith. Which is why faith is always in the present tense, active, continuing. It is never past tense unless one is saying they believed yesterday, and today as well. But you cannot gurantee your future. At least no other human being has been able to do this. Which is why believers have all the warning against losing faith.
Having your sins forgiven is not salvation. It keeps one reconciled to God so that you are continuing your walk toward salvation, the promise at the end. The confirmation of your faith as having been faithful.
Having your sins forgiven is not salvation. It keeps one reconciled to God so that you are continuing your walk toward salvation, the promise at the end. The confirmation of your faith as having been faithful.
E
You have this wrong.
The promise may be fulfilled in the ned, But it is active and present in the beginning. This is what God says.
lol. A man who came to christ would not reject him. You have no faith in the power of the spirit do you. No wonder you deny the spirit and want to hold up men.
No scripture gives all kinds of examples of impostors who finally showed their true faith was not in Christ,
I am sorry you have no faith in the power of God. Maybe one day you will find it?