SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[Cassian]

to which I will ask (even though I have asked this over and over and not once did I get an answer)

Can a person who does not have faith be saved? (dead faith means zero faith zero zip nada)



Yes, James is telling them to prove they have faith. Was he wrong for asking them (us) to prove if our faith is real, or just mere belief)





Yes,

Which is what I have been saying all along.

A body without the spirit is dead. Lifeless. Not saved.

Faith without works is dead, Lifeless, Not able to save.

So how is this saying works save us, And not the faith which produces the works which saves us?

because without the works you have no faith. They cannot be separated. You cannot speak of faith alone, and then add works as if some adjunct to it. In scripture every timie faith is used, it is implying a living faith which is an active faith, doing the works of righteousness. This is why the correct phrasology of scripture is that one is justified BY faith, but is being saved THROUGH faith. Eph 2:8 uses the word Through. It cannot ever be faith alone. It is dead and non-existent.


Nor can it be stated that faith alone saved you. Then as Calvinists, because of another erroneous doctrine of predestination will claim that God cannot lose what He has decreed, which would be correct Calvinistic theology, but not scriptural. One is not saved, in the past tense finitely, in this life. The inheritance, the actual eternal life is not awarded until the end, it is awaiting for us, IF we remain faithful.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

because without the works you have no faith. They cannot be separated. You cannot speak of faith alone, and then add works as if some adjunct to it. In scripture every timie faith is used, it is implying a living faith which is an active faith, doing the works of righteousness. This is why the correct phrasology of scripture is that one is justified BY faith, but is being saved THROUGH faith. Eph 2:8 uses the word Through. It cannot ever be faith alone. It is dead and non-existent.


Nor can it be stated that faith alone saved you. Then as Calvinists, because of another erroneous doctrine of predestination will claim that God cannot lose what He has decreed, which would be correct Calvinistic theology, but not scriptural. One is not saved, in the past tense finitely, in this life. The inheritance, the actual eternal life is not awarded until the end, it is awaiting for us, IF we remain faithful.

so. Our faith is based on our work. and not our work based on our faith.

Thanks for answering, You just proved a point, Your faith is based on what you do. thus your faith is in yourself.

 

[Cassian]

man is SAVED by faith alone. justified by God based on FAITH in Christ.

that man, CLEARLY having a faith which God considers righteousness, is SEEN to be saved (a good tree) bearing fruit, by what he does. is this really that difficult?

read this if you care to. it's what everyone has been trying to tell you.

Faith and Works | Titus Institute

Justified does not mean SAVED. It means to be put into a correct relationship. You have entered into Christ, you, on the bases of that faith, repentance and baptism, have entered INTO Christ, and this is where your personal salvation begins and exists until, either you leave the Body, or you remain faithful till your death and then the reward for your faithfulness is the inheritance of the promise of eternal life with Christ. There is no such thing as being SAVED finitely in this life in one's relationship with Christ. The Bible is full of examples of believers who left the fold and were assigned to darkness, knashing of teeth, to condemnation with the devil. Hardly a formula of finite salvation in ones walk with Christ.

 

[Vaudeville]

Justified does not mean SAVED. It means to be put into a correct relationship. You have entered into Christ, you, on the bases of that faith, repentance and baptism, have entered INTO Christ, and this is where your personal salvation begins and exists until, either you leave the Body, or you remain faithful till your death and then the reward for your faithfulness is the inheritance of the promise of eternal life with Christ. There is no such thing as being SAVED finitely in this life in one's relationship with Christ. The Bible is full of examples of believers who left the fold and were assigned to darkness, knashing of teeth, to condemnation with the devil. Hardly a formula of finite salvation in ones walk with Christ.

Ephesians 2
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

i think i've spent enough time on your false gospel.
goodnight.

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

but you would take away his preaching of peace.

 

[Cassian]

man is SAVED by faith alone. justified by God based on FAITH in Christ.

that man, CLEARLY having a faith which God considers righteousness, is SEEN to be saved (a good tree) bearing fruit, by what he does. is this really that difficult?

read this if you care to. it's what everyone has been trying to tell you.

Faith and Works | Titus Institute

Your first phrase is not correct if you are assuming the SAVED cannot change. What scripture means is that we take possession of our salvation. Man is not finitely saved, past tense, in this life based on his relationship with Christ. That SAVED can be lost due to many causes and reasons, some are explained in Scripture.

Otherwise you and the article you posted is precisely correct.
Which contradicts the notion of being saved by faith alone. This is exactly what all the opponents have been saying all along.
I think your error is to assume that one, by simply being declared righteous, is finitely saved, rather than taking possession of his salvation. Thus again, one CANNOT be saved by faith alone. If you want to say, one is justified by faith only, might be acceptable, but since scripture does not use it nor imply it, I don't use it. One is not saved by simply being justified.

 

[notuptome]

cherry picking again hoping it means what you want it to mean, or just assigning a meaning to fit your theology.
The text says quite plainly that the promise is irrevocable, and that believers are kept by the power of God THROUGH FAITH. That faith is YOUR faith. NO fruit, you have NO faith. It has nothing to do with man and merit. It is accepting the reality of our existence in that God created us to do the work but we are required to do them with Him, not apart from Him. He does not guarantee salvation without having the evidence, namely your life's work, to show that He did not throw pearls to swine. You need to await until the end, The end determines where you stand, not the beginning.

also irrelevant based on your statement about merit, since not a single opponent ever stated that it is man alone and is merited to him. It has always been the opposite. But that would be acceptable since you have not other evidence you need to create strawmen.

I do not care where you go in the bible you will never find a verse where we are required to do anything beyond believe what is said of Christ. What you are espousing is exactly the same as what apostate Israel espoused. Paul addressed them in Romans 10:1-3 Rituals and rites are not needed to aid Christ. Christ did all that was required to satisfy Gods demands in atonement for sin. Satisfied to the last iota. Only Christ could do what needed to be done. Only Christ could perfectly fulfill all the demands of the Fathers perfect righteousness.

The fool has said in his heart no God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Justified does not mean SAVED.

no wonder you like latin so much, WHy do you not follow the greek.

No one in the first century would have seen it this way, They ALL understood to be justified is to be saved from the penalty of the crime you were charged with.

Maybe it means different in latin? Well it does not matter, The NT was not written in latin.

 

[Alligator]

By your efforts to add to what Christ has done. Salvation is not conditioned on anything except Gods mercy and grace.

When I surrendered myself to Christ I became His and no longer mine own. I cannot wrest myself from Him nor would I ever desire to do so. There is nothing in heaven nor earth that can remove me from Him.

It will be His joy to present me before His Father in heaven as one of His own. think about that little goodie.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

everybody knows and agrees that we are saved by grace and the shedding of Christ's blood on the cross. By being in the "faith only " crowd, what you are really saying is that I can disobey Christ, bury my talent in the ground, and still be saved. Personally, I'm not very comfortable with the thought of meeting Christ on judgement day with my one talent that I chose to bury in the ground and not do the works Jesus asked me to do, such as visiting the sick, caring for the elderly, etc. No, by simply doing what Christ asked me to do I am not "adding to" anything.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

everybody knows and agrees that we are saved by grace and the shedding of Christ's blood on the cross. By being in the "faith only " crowd, what you are really saying is that I can disobey Christ, bury my talent in the ground, and still be saved. Personally, I'm not very comfortable with the thought of meeting Christ on judgement day with my one talent that I chose to bury in the ground and not do the works Jesus asked me to do, such as visiting the sick, caring for the elderly, etc. No, by simply doing what Christ asked me to do I am not "adding to" anything.

Personally I am not comfortable with the thought of meeting Christ on judgment day no matter how many talents I have with me, or how many works I have done.

I still would deserve total condemnation. To be cast out from Gods presence for all eternity. If i have to stand on my own merit. based on the deeds I have done, I can have no confidence whatsoever, Only a fearful expectation of judgment.

 

[Cassian]

Ephesians 2
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

i think i've spent enough time on your false gospel.
goodnight.

And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

but you would take away his preaching of peace.

False to your personal interpretation, but you have failed to show it is false based on scripture as it was given in the beginning.
Truth cannot be changed.

 

[Elin]

The real meaning you cannot accept the authority of Christ and His Gospel as He gave it and preserved it. True to the nature of man,
man must be in authority, in this case over scripture and what it means.

We have irresolvable differences that remove all bases for examining the Scriptures with you.

You accept an authority outside the Scriptures
which can authorize what the Scriptures do not state.

Your self-evident error means

you are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[Cassian]

I do not care where you go in the bible you will never find a verse where we are required to do anything beyond believe what is said of Christ. What you are espousing is exactly the same as what apostate Israel espoused. Paul addressed them in Romans 10:1-3 Rituals and rites are not needed to aid Christ. Christ did all that was required to satisfy Gods demands in atonement for sin. Satisfied to the last iota. Only Christ could do what needed to be done. Only Christ could perfectly fulfill all the demands of the Fathers perfect righteousness.

The fool has said in his heart no God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

but then this topic is not about what Christ did for mankind. It is about the reason He saved mankind from death and sin.
That was to be able to be reunited with man in a living, loving, obedient relationship by which we enter by faith, and are being saved through faith. We are NOT aiding Christ. Man has nothing to do with what Christ did for mankind.
Christ is actually aiding us by giving us the Holy Spirit as His surety in our relationship. What you fail to understand, it is not about having been saved, but that we are being saved. We inherit that promise of eternal life at the end our lives, IF we remain faithful.

Stay on topic. I know you have no evidence, so you are still, all of you, consistantly bringing up texts that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic, which is "saved by faith only".

 

[Cassian]

We have irresolvable differences that remove all bases for examining the Scriptures with you.

You accept an authority outside the Scriptures which can authorize what the Scriptures do not state.

Your self-evident error means

you are wasting your time and ours here.

It is not my problem that I have accepted Christ as my authority over you a man, or any man.
Although it is a great cop out when one has no evidence to prove their thesis.

 

[Elin]

Justified does not mean SAVED.

WRONG!

Justification is declaration of guiltlessness and right standing before God because one's sins have been forgiven through faith, which saves one from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on their sin at the Final Judgment.

Salvation is the forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77), which saves from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9).

You don't have a clue regarding what Paul teaches about justification.

You are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[Elin]

False to your personal interpretation, but you have failed to show it is false based on
scripture as it was given in the beginning.

Is there any Scripture other than what was given in the beginning?

Where is this "Scripture" that was not given in the beginning?

 

[Cassian]

no wonder you like latin so much, WHy do you not follow the greek.

No one in the first century would have seen it this way, They ALL understood to be justified is to be saved from the penalty of the crime you were charged with.

Maybe it means different in latin? Well it does not matter, The NT was not written in latin.

I don't know about the Latin since that came much later and only in the west with Rome.
But the Church was given the Gospel in Greek, scripture was written in Greek, it was taught in Greek exclusively for 900 years before a second language entered, namely the Slavic. Yet, not a single Church Father every descriped that one is saved by faith only. You will NEVER find the phrase regarding being saved by faith only. You will find the word justified by faith only, but never saved by faith only.

Actually the idea of this declaration of "not guilty" from being justified comes in the 11th century by a Archbishop of Canterbury, Anselm who developed the so-called Satisfaction Theory of atonement. It is this theory that Luther adopted as well as most Protestants.
Again, another man made innovation imposed on scripture. You should study it so you would understand better what you actually believe.

The Church does not disagree that one takes possession of His eternal salvation upon being justified by faith. After all, it puts one in Christ where one can be saved. But that possession is conditional. It is conditional on one's faith. One loses faith, one loses salvation. How can one be saved by not having faith, an active, alive, working, fruitful faith?

 

[Elin]

It is not my problem that I have accepted Christ as my authority over you a man, or any man.

Is this Christ found outside Scripture?

You accept an authority outside the Scriptures which can authorize what the Scriptures do not state.

Your self-evident error means

you are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't know about the Latin since that came much later and only in the west with Rome.
But the Church was given the Gospel in Greek, scripture was written in Greek, it was taught in Greek exclusively for 900 years before a second language entered, namely the Slavic. Yet, not a single Church Father every descriped that one is saved by faith only. You will NEVER find the phrase regarding being saved by faith only. You will find the word justified by faith only, but never saved by faith only.

Actually the idea of this declaration of "not guilty" from being justified comes in the 11th century by a Archbishop of Canterbury, Anselm who developed the so-called Satisfaction Theory of atonement. It is this theory that Luther adopted as well as most Protestants.
Again, another man made innovation imposed on scripture. You should study it so you would understand better what you actually believe.

The Church does not disagree that one takes possession of His eternal salvation upon being justified by faith. After all, it puts one in Christ where one can be saved. But that possession is conditional. It is conditional on one's faith. One loses faith, one loses salvation. How can one be saved by not having faith, an active, alive, working, fruitful faith?

So a first century legal term which was given to someone who is found innocent of all charges against him, was not used this way until the 9th century.

Thanks. But I will trust God and not you. Who obviously is steeped in the history of your own church, but serously lacking in the history of the 1st century.

Can yuo do us a favor. and look up the greek word dikaioo (translated to justify, to make just) and show us what it means? or would that be to hard for you?

ps. I am not looking for the english defenition of justify, or the latin defenition. I am looking for the greek defenition of dikaioo

 

[dcontroversal]

You have had two threads to present some evidence, yet not a shred. Lots of innuendo, lots or misunderstandings, even more mischaracterizations but not a shred of evidence that "faith only" has been a scriptural teaching. Even given the fact that "faith ONLY, is given as a negative.

The devil comes as a Light also. He comes to deceive and you have been decieved by him through Luther who first instituted this false notion of being saved by faith only.

First of all I am not Luthern
Second....False teachers are compared to three people in Jude the first being Cain
Third...Cain's religion and expectation of reception by God was based upon HIS OWN WORKS
Fourth...The OP gives proof enough and yet you still trust in your own works
Fifth...The Pharisees approached scripture the exact same way you and your deceptive, deceived buddies and they were lost men, teaching heresy, and leading people straight to hell.

It is evident that the faith of Jesus and what he accomplished on the cross was not good enough to meet your expectations so keep on slapping Jesus in the face with your fleshly works and denial of HIS COMPLETED WORK that requires but faith...

 

[Cassian]

WRONG!

Justification is declaration of guiltlessness and right standing before God because one's sins have been forgiven through faith, which saves one from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) on their sin at the Final Judgment.

Salvation is the forgiveness of sin (Lk 1:77), which saves from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9).

Rom 5:6-10 is all about the reconciliation of the world through Christ to God. It makes possible the forgiveness of sin, but that only comes through faith. That is the phrase in vs 9 where it begins,"we shall be saved from wrath through HIM. And then again, the latter of vs 10 where the first part is about Chrsit reconciling the world through His death, but that we (believers) shall be saved by His Life.

Because He arose from the dead giving life to the world, we by faith can be united with Him.

Forgiveness of sin is NOT salvation either. The initial repentance and baptism (which forgives sin also) is ONLY for past sins. In order to remain IN Christ we need to confess our sins. It is one of the whys to lose faith. Sin and Christ do not mix. You cannot be in Christ and sin without confession. Sin is not doing the will of God. A pure faith IS doing the will of God. So when one no longer is doing the will of God, and does not confess those sins, they will condemn a man.

You don't have a clue regarding what Paul teaches about justification.

quite obviously you don't. But then you haven't proven I am incorrect either.

You are still deflecting from the topic, which is one is "saved by faith only". No evidence as yet, but a lot of meandering and mischaracterizations and irrelevent texts that does not address "saved by faith only".