SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I don't know what the legal term the Greek used for a legal situation.
But the word dikaioo is not a legal term. It is a relational term. It means righteous, to make right, or to put into a correct relationship. Scripture uses the same understanding. It does not have the legal connotation of "declaring not guilty", that is Anselmian and Mediavel civil law.
lol. Where did you get your defenition?

56.34 δικαιόωc; δικαίωσιςb, εως f; δικαίωμαc, τος n: the act of clearing someone of transgression—‘to acquit, to set free, to remove guilt, acquittal.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains. New York: United Bible Societies.

δῐκαιόω, Ion. impf. δικαιεῦν: f. ώσω and ώσομαι: aor. I ἐδικαίωσα:—Pass., aor. I ἐδικαιώθην: (δίκαιος):
I. to set right: Pass., δικαιωθείς proved, tested, Aesch.
II. to hold or deem right, think fit, demand, c. inf., Hdt., etc.; inf. omitted, as οὕτω δικαιοῦν (sc. γενέσθαι) Id.:—to consent, δουλεύειν Id.; οὐ δ. to refuse, Thuc.:—c. acc. pers. et inf. to desire one to do, Hdt.
III. to do a man right or justice, to judge, i.e.,
1. to condemn, Thuc.: to chastise, punish, Hdt.
2. to deem righteous, justify, N.T. Hence δικαίωμα

dikaios, conforming to law or custom, right, virtuous; dikaiosynē, justice, righteousness; dikaioō, to justify, pronounce just; dikaiōma, justification, righteousness, righteous decree, just requirement; dikaiōsis, justification; dikastēs, judge; dikē, custom, justice, punishment
→see also λάθρα


Spicq, C., & Ernest, J. D. (1994). Theological lexicon of the New Testament. Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.
Liddell, H. G. (1996). A lexicon: Abridged from Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English lexicon. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

1467 δικαιόω (dikaioō): vb.; ≡ DBLHebr 7405; Str 1344; TDNT 2.211—1. LN 34.46 put right with, justify, vindicate, declare righteous, i.e., cause one to be in a right relation (Ro 3:24); 2. LN 88.16 show to be right, demonstrate to something is morally just (Ro 3:4); 3. LN 56.34 acquit, remove guilt, set free, i.e., clear of a transgression (Ac 13:38); 4. LN 37.138 set free, release from the control of

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

δικαιόω V 4-3-16-7-21=51
Gn 38,26; 44,16; Ex 23,7; Dt 25,1; 2 Sm 15,4
A to pronounce and treat as righteous, to justify, to vindicate, to acquit [τινα] Ex 23,7; to do justice to sb [τινα] 2 Sm 15,4
P to be justified Jb 33,32; to be shown to be righteous Is 42,21
ἕως τοῦ δικαιῶσαι αὐτὸν τὴν δίκην μου until he deems right my caus


Lust, J., Eynikel, E., & Hauspie, K. (2003). A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint : Revised Edition. Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft: Stuttgart.

1344. δικαιόω dikaiŏō, dik-ah-yŏ´-o; from 1342; to render (i.e. show or regard as) just or innocent:— free, justify (-ier), be righteous.

Strong, J. (1996). The New Strong’s Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words. Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

there are just a few which show the legal term as it was used in 1st century, and even one as it was used in the greek septuagint of the OT.


It actually was tranlated by Jerome in the 4th century from Greek to Latin. Latin did not have an equivalent word, so he used the Latin, justify/justification. This is a legal pronouncement in Roman law. Then a Archbishop Anselm employed it in his development of his theory of atonement. I'm not sure the RCC adopted it completely because I think Francis of Assissi softened it to a more correct understanding. However, most Protestants have adopted it by default because Luther adopted the Satisfaction theory, as did Calvin but Calvin added the additional "penal" element to the Atonement.
lol.. The greek word still has a legal component, WHo cares what someone in the 4th century thought, Our goal is to see what the first century people who origionally read these words written directly to them thought. You will not find this out in some 4th century writing or history lesson.

Therein lies part of your misunderstanding regarding the use of the word Justify/justification. The word is used in Rom 5:18 and it cannot have a legal meaning at all. Christ given life to all men Justified, man to God, meaning put man into a correct relationship with God. Christ, nor God is declaring all men not guilty here.
You would be in error through Christs death came the gift of RIGHTEOUSNESS (declaired innocent) to all men, resulting in Justification to life.

It does not say all men are justified, It says all men have been offered the gift of righteousness, which is
Another twist of something you can not understand because your stuck in the 3rd and 4th century, and not in the 1st century when these words were written.


But you claim to have a better understanding of 1st century Church history/theology, where is your evidence that the view of "saved by faith only" ever existed until Luther in his problem with James. He did not understand it either.
No he did not understand it, He was still to confused by roman doctrine, He did not study it to see it.

Paul taught it, NT believers embraced it.

Why you do not embrace it but embrace your own work is beyond me
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Obviously you missed that one too. Dikaioo does NOT mean to pardon, to aquite, or to vindicate. That is why you are having the problem with scripture. You are using an incorrect meaning of the word. You are more Roman than you think.

Again you are in err.

I do not know where you get your greek learning from. But whatever it is, you should run from them, because they have not taught you right.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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Again you prove you lack of understanding when it comes to justification which is the result of biblical faith and salvation...

SAVED-->JUSTIFIED--->SANCTIFIED....nor do you understand the completed work of Christ and what it accomplished!
Just full of empty assertions. Strawmen to be sure. Are you trying to rack up the number of posts you make?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
LOL,, "out of context". Ah, the most used cop out . Don't you think that's getting a little old?
when men continue to do it to make the bible fit their perverted doctrines and beliefs, No I do not think it is over used, it is the biggest mistake made. and why there are so many beliefs in what the word of God says.
 

Cassian

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Oct 12, 2013
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thanks you just explained james.

why would we need to re-evaluate pur relationship? Most likely because there is no relationship, our faith was dead, which is why we do not desire to work for God.
Yes, He did, but why not then accept what James says. You keep denying what He is actually teaching. When there is no relationship you are the same as an unbeliever, thus obviously no salvation. What is so hard about that?
 
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Just full of empty assertions. Strawmen to be sure. Are you trying to rack up the number of posts you make?
Whatever lost man.....as it is you that have empty assertions to be sure......faith+works=lost=hell.....I hope you have sunblock 10 million!...Double cursed by Paul to Hell....like he said...

Who hath bewitched you? Serious....you should repent and trust Jesus before it is eternally too late for you! Your works for salvation will no get you 1 inch off the ground, but rather HELL will be moved to meet all at their coming...especially the ones who deny faith in favor of their own worldly, fleshly works!
 
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LOL,, "out of context". Ah, the most used cop out . Don't you think that's getting a little old?
COP OUT....well maybe you like teaching things out of context that will take you straight to hell as well as anyone who believes your heretical doctrine of works/water for salvation...the only reason you mouthed is because in context the verses you quoted refute your heresy and make you look like a fool!
 
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That is true, but I will also say that...

1. Works cannot gain or keep one saved
2. Saved people can
a. Backslide to the point that they have forgotten that they have been purged but still saved
b. Walk contrary and be cut loose for the destruction of the flesh yet be saved
c. Be a saved child of God with very if any works=works of wood, hay and stubble yet still be saved
d. Trust Jesus in faith and then fall away yet still be saved as he cannot deny himself and the salvation applied eternally
etc.
Sounds like OSAS to me......

What are ya gonna do wit this?
Hebrews 6:1-6 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened (saved), and have tasted of the heavenly gift (saved), and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
(saved), [SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God (saved), and the powers of the world to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2 Corinthians 13:2 (KJV) [SUP]2 [/SUP]I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
Revelation 2:5 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Revelation 2:16 (KJV) [SUP]16 [/SUP]Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Revelation 3:3 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


All these are written to churches (saved), not unbelievers.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

A falling away of the church, for sinners already fallen cannot fall away.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary:
2:3. Having stated the issue and identified the sources of the false teaching, Paul proceeded to warn his readers against being deceived. The Thessalonians must not be deceived by any person, no matter how credible he might appear to be, or by the way anyone might present his teaching, claiming the authority of God or godly men. New Christians tend to be gullible because they are not yet grounded in the truth of God’s Word (cf. Eph. 4:14). But all Christians can be misled by impressive personalities and spectacular appeals. The antidote to poisonous heresy is a good strong dose of the truth which Paul proceeded to administer.

The Bible Background Commentary:
2:3-4.
The first prerequisite is either the “rebellion” (NIV, NRSV, TEV) or the “apostasy” (NASB). If it is a “rebellion” against God, it is the world’s final insult to him (2 Thes. 2:4); if “apostasy,” it refers back to Jesus’ sayings later written in Matthew 24:10-13.

Matthew 24:10-13 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

So, those deceived during the falling away of the church will be saved? Those of the churches in Revelation will be saved regardless? Hebrews 6 says it plainly: IMPOSSIBLE!


 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes, He did, but why not then accept what James says. You keep denying what He is actually teaching. When there is no relationship you are the same as an unbeliever, thus obviously no salvation. What is so hard about that?


I do accept what he says.

A person who CLAIMS to have faith, but has no work is a liar. HIS FAITH IS DEAD. (He is not saved, never was, and never will be until he has faith)

Your the one trying to twist james into saying one can gain and lose salvation. Not me.
 
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Yes, He did, but why not then accept what James says. You keep denying what He is actually teaching. When there is no relationship you are the same as an unbeliever, thus obviously no salvation. What is so hard about that?
The heresy of what you teach is what is so wrong with it.....Again you deny Romans which clearly teaches saved apart from works based upon faith......Your rejection of Jesus and his faith will cost you eternity....I suggest you repent and trust the (correct message) as opposed to the double cursed to hell doctrine of works plus Jesus for salvation!
 
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I do accept what he says.

A person who CLAIMS to have faith, but has no work is a liar. HIS FAITH IS DEAD. (He is not saved, never was, and never will be until he has faith)

Your the one trying to twist james into saying one can gain and lose salvation. Not me.
They can argue with the truth here, but wait till they are called forth and they begin to brag on their works and abilities and Jesus tells them to depart into everlasting fire as he never knew them because they attempted to come by another, different door.. as in their works instead of the faith OF Jesus which is perfect and complete!
 

Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
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Now even jesus had said unless your deeds eceed those of the pharisees in no wise shall you enter the kingdom of hea en , now also he spoke of a tree that is to be judged by its fruits that a bad tree cannot produce good fruits and that a good tree cannot produce bad fruit and continued said that every tree that does not bear good fruit will be hewn down and thrown into the fire , so being there is a change required but by the spirit of God through christ
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
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lol. Where did you get your defenition?
from a Greek Dictionary.

56.34 δικαιόωc; δικαίωσιςb, εως f; δικαίωμαc, τος n: the act of clearing someone of transgression—‘to acquit, to set free, to remove guilt, acquittal.’
It has never had that meaning in the Greek. You are using Strong and He tranliterated it from the Latin.

Let me ask you, when you justify your bank statement with your check bookd do you declare your check book "not guillty. When you reconcile your Checkbook, do you declare it "not guilty" too. These two words have the same meaning. To be made right, to be put into a correct relationship. to be made right or righteous.



there are just a few which show the legal term as it was used in 1st century, and even one as it was used in the greek septuagint of the OT.
But the legal term does not fit scripture. It does not even fit our modern uses of the word. But nice try. I think Paul knew His Greek better than you and surely some of the modern translaters assume that it means to pardon, or vindicate, to declare not guilty. You should know that all westen theology is based on Roman Catholic definitions. Protestants may not really understand this, but by default you are more Roman Cathalic than you think. Two theories in particular, this Satisfaction theory of Atonement, and Original Sin are both RCC doctrines or were developed by men and incorporated into western RCC and Protestant theology.





lol.. The greek word still has a legal component, WHo cares what someone in the 4th century thought, Our goal is to see what the first century people who origionally read these words written directly to them thought. You will not find this out in some 4th century writing or history lesson.
I know you don't care because it destroys you theory even more. Now you basis for it is false as well as the theory itself.




You would be in error through Christs death came the gift of RIGHTEOUSNESS (declaired innocent) to all men, resulting in Justification to life.

It does not say all men are justified, It says all men have been offered the gift of righteousness, which is
Another twist of something you can not understand because your stuck in the 3rd and 4th century, and not in the 1st century when these words were written.




No he did not understand it, He was still to confused by roman doctrine, He did not study it to see it.

Paul taught it, NT believers embraced it.

Why you do not embrace it but embrace your own work is beyond me
[/QUOTE]
 

Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
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The works of the spirit are of faith because they have believed with their hearts not just confessed but to say who goes down or who hoes up is making jesus of no effect in them byt we do know that those who love God hate evil just like Christ
 
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Sounds like OSAS to me......

What are ya gonna do wit this?
Hebrews 6:1-6 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, [SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened (saved), and have tasted of the heavenly gift (saved), and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
(saved), [SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God (saved), and the powers of the world to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

2 Corinthians 13:2 (KJV) [SUP]2 [/SUP]I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare:
Revelation 2:5 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Revelation 2:16 (KJV) [SUP]16 [/SUP]Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
Revelation 3:3 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


All these are written to churches (saved), not unbelievers.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

A falling away of the church, for sinners already fallen cannot fall away.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary:
2:3. Having stated the issue and identified the sources of the false teaching, Paul proceeded to warn his readers against being deceived. The Thessalonians must not be deceived by any person, no matter how credible he might appear to be, or by the way anyone might present his teaching, claiming the authority of God or godly men. New Christians tend to be gullible because they are not yet grounded in the truth of God’s Word (cf. Eph. 4:14). But all Christians can be misled by impressive personalities and spectacular appeals. The antidote to poisonous heresy is a good strong dose of the truth which Paul proceeded to administer.

The Bible Background Commentary:
2:3-4.
The first prerequisite is either the “rebellion” (NIV, NRSV, TEV) or the “apostasy” (NASB). If it is a “rebellion” against God, it is the world’s final insult to him (2 Thes. 2:4); if “apostasy,” it refers back to Jesus’ sayings later written in Matthew 24:10-13.

Matthew 24:10-13 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

So, those deceived during the falling away of the church will be saved? Those of the churches in Revelation will be saved regardless? Hebrews 6 says it plainly: IMPOSSIBLE!


Well I will say...

1. Hebrews is out of context and was given to those Jewish believers who were believing a mixture of the Old Covenant and the New Covenant and has nothing to do with eternal salvation..
2. The rest are scriptures out of context pieced together and by themselves do not contradict the OP
3. Your worst mistake is using commentaries.....
4. Who cares what the commentaries you quote have to say...

Your Matthew text has nothing to do with eternal salvation as the word (saved) is not spirit salvation but rather the word (preserved) and is indicative of those (who will be alive and remain) unto the body presence (second coming) of Jesus.

The apo-hystamie (falling away) is indicative of those who will turn their backs upon the Lord's churches and truth at the end of the age.....In order to come out from something you have to be in it...It is evident that there are many Unregenerate Lost men and women in the Lord's churches today as most walk contrary to the truth and point to the fact that they are probably not saved to begin with.

And yes saved people can do the following and still be saved....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
That is true, but I will also say that...

1. Works cannot gain or keep one saved
2. Saved people can
a. Backslide to the point that they have forgotten that they have been purged but still saved
b. Walk contrary and be cut loose for the destruction of the flesh yet be saved
c. Be a saved child of God with very if any works=works of wood, hay and stubble yet still be saved
d. Trust Jesus in faith and then fall away yet still be saved as he cannot deny himself and the salvation applied eternally
etc
 
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Exactly. But I can almost 100% guarantee you they will argue against you anyways. It doesn't matter how much scripture you show them, they have chosen what they want to believe, and regardless what the Bible says, they will believe what they want.
opinion based facts, rooted in scripture. must be thought about or studded, to come to an opinion.to this being true, or is it false. or what dose this mean. this is a fundamental fact.(ie we all need to think, to come to some understanding.) the facts also show, you have a right to say I agree or disagree. politics, class, different Christian churchs /sect. all run on this fact,(ie being human)they are also,were put in place by a human. that why, you are free to join any church/ or sect. we use our mind to think things through. history only proves an other human was used, in put these things in place. you have/ give it a name.

its called the blaim game,..god said to adam adam said to god. ,it was eve , eve said it was the snake, etc
so in simple terms, gods plan to save mankind, started when he made the world. or after sin entered it.
you have to believe in a god, for that god to save you. class, politic, different churches, don't save you.
in the bible it says,
3.16 john. god so loved the world, he sent his one and only son, that who ever believes in him, has eternal life.

who saves, and what, do you need to do to be saved. and what, are we given, once you said , I believe.

regardless to what you think, you are free to believe, what you want.
but we have no right, to say you don't belong, (thats gods right). christain don't claim to be save by them selfs or know what god plan is for you or me.

IQ s are also different, but god can teach all, at there level and understanding. throught the holy spirit.
 

Timeline

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2014
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If Cassian has accepted Jesus and we "can't do anything to lose our salvation", then he is fine, right. I think y'all are both going to far in opposite directions. You are saved by faith before you ever do any work. Your work shows your faith, if you do not work it shows that you do not appreciate the gift and you are failing to show respect to your Savior.

Saved before you work - You just need to accept Jesus as your Savior.
If you don't work - No faith (not including those that are not able to work)
You can turn away and lose your salvation - According to eternally this means you become an antichrist but you still lose your salvation
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
They can argue with the truth here, but wait till they are called forth and they begin to brag on their works and abilities and Jesus tells them to depart into everlasting fire as he never knew them because they attempted to come by another, different door.. as in their works instead of the faith OF Jesus which is perfect and complete!
We should not brag about our works, but you have this backwards....You need to read Matthew 25 in verse 45 it talks about those who don't do works, and in verse 46 it says these are the ones who will go to eternal punishment.
 

Apostol2013

Senior Member
Jan 27, 2013
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The kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that found a pearl the man was full of joy and sold all he had just to attain that pearl
 
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And yes saved people can do the following and still be saved....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
That is true, but I will also say that...

1. Works cannot gain or keep one saved
2. Saved people can
a. Backslide to the point that they have forgotten that they have been purged but still saved
b. Walk contrary and be cut loose for the destruction of the flesh yet be saved
c. Be a saved child of God with very if any works=works of wood, hay and stubble yet still be saved
d. Trust Jesus in faith and then fall away yet still be saved as he cannot deny himself and the salvation applied eternally
etc
But can one FALL INTO UNBELIEF? By the way that is what a number of the warnings are about. No where in the Bible can anyone find that anyone will be saved IN UNBELIEF.