SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[LT]

You know its funny you reply because i can remember how we had opposing sides in other forums. But im glad to see that someone knows that we must work. That we cant sit around and do nothing. He said occupy until i come. But did you see how God said a lack of knowledge will cause one to perish.

I'm sure we're not on the same page with everything;
but being brothers in Christ is not about being on the same page,
it's about being in the same Book:
the Word

... and living it out

 

[dcontroversal]

You know its funny you reply because i can remember how we had opposing sides in other forums. But im glad to see that someone knows that we must work. That we cant sit around and do nothing. He said occupy until i come. But did you see how God said a lack of knowledge will cause one to perish.

I want to reiterate what I posted a while back....NO ONE and again I say NO ONE who is on this post who believes saved by grace through faith void of works to get or keep salvation is saying that God's children do not have to work for the Lord and keep the WORD in our lives as SANCTIFICATION IN A BELIEVERS PHYSICAL LIFE IS A TRANSFORMING PROCESS which is found in Romans 12:1-2...not being conformed, but rather transformed by the renewing of the mind...

The contention is...

ARE works needed to save someone and or keep one saved and the answer is NO!

 

[Cassian]

So a first century legal term which was given to someone who is found innocent of all charges against him, was not used this way until the 9th century.

Thanks. But I will trust God and not you. Who obviously is steeped in the history of your own church, but serously lacking in the history of the 1st century.

Can yuo do us a favor. and look up the greek word dikaioo (translated to justify, to make just) and show us what it means? or would that be to hard for you?

ps. I am not looking for the english defenition of justify, or the latin defenition. I am looking for the greek defenition of dikaioo

I don't know what the legal term the Greek used for a legal situation.
But the word dikaioo is not a legal term. It is a relational term. It means righteous, to make right, or to put into a correct relationship. Scripture uses the same understanding. It does not have the legal connotation of "declaring not guilty", that is Anselmian and Mediavel civil law.

I have been using these terms throughout both of the threads dealing with this topic.

It actually was tranlated by Jerome in the 4th century from Greek to Latin. Latin did not have an equivalent word, so he used the Latin, justify/justification. This is a legal pronouncement in Roman law. Then a Archbishop Anselm employed it in his development of his theory of atonement. I'm not sure the RCC adopted it completely because I think Francis of Assissi softened it to a more correct understanding. However, most Protestants have adopted it by default because Luther adopted the Satisfaction theory, as did Calvin but Calvin added the additional "penal" element to the Atonement.

Therein lies part of your misunderstanding regarding the use of the word Justify/justification. The word is used in Rom 5:18 and it cannot have a legal meaning at all. Christ given life to all men Justified, man to God, meaning put man into a correct relationship with God. Christ, nor God is declaring all men not guilty here.

But you claim to have a better understanding of 1st century Church history/theology, where is your evidence that the view of "saved by faith only" ever existed until Luther in his problem with James. He did not understand it either.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, I fully understand. But Christ has been rejected much in this world, it is the least I can do to recognize a few that reject His Gospel.
It is the natural inclination of man to exult himself, that ego thing. Which is why Christianity is exactly the opossite. Self denial, being a servant, loving even our enemies.

You should know as you are the one who brags, boasts and believes in your own works for salvation because you fail to trust the one true path...HAHAH your bolded quote is a farce!

 

[Cassian]

well I found the latin word.

justifico (hense where we get the english word)

it means to forgive, to pardon, or to aquite, to vindicate.

Yep. Legal term in the latin, same as it is in the greek.

Obviously you missed that one too. Dikaioo does NOT mean to pardon, to aquite, or to vindicate. That is why you are having the problem with scripture. You are using an incorrect meaning of the word. You are more Roman than you think.

 

[Alligator]

Justified does not mean SAVED. It means to be put into a correct relationship. You have entered into Christ, you, on the bases of that faith, repentance and baptism, have entered INTO Christ, and this is where your personal salvation begins and exists until, either you leave the Body, or you remain faithful till your death and then the reward for your faithfulness is the inheritance of the promise of eternal life with Christ. There is no such thing as being SAVED finitely in this life in one's relationship with Christ. The Bible is full of examples of believers who left the fold and were assigned to darkness, knashing of teeth, to condemnation with the devil. Hardly a formula of finite salvation in ones walk with Christ.

Really? If this weren't so serious it would be funny. See Acts 2:38; Mark 16:15-16; I Pet. 3:21;

Yeah I know the scriptures well...none of them teach baptismal regeneration but rather are a sign of identification just as circumcision and is the outward testimony of an inward act of faith and the 1st act OF OBEDIENCE after one has been saved.

You teaching watered down blood for salvation is what is serious...seriously wrong!

Nevertheless, I believe in studying ALL the scriptures and obeying them. Not cherry picking only those scriptures that are easy on me.

 

[dcontroversal]

You have this wrong.

The promise may be fulfilled in the ned, But it is active and present in the beginning. This is what God says.



lol. A man who came to christ would not reject him. You have no faith in the power of the spirit do you. No wonder you deny the spirit and want to hold up men.



No scripture gives all kinds of examples of impostors who finally showed their true faith was not in Christ,

I am sorry you have no faith in the power of God. Maybe one day you will find it?

Only if they quit trusting into their own works.....twice dead and blind to the truth...tragic for sure!

 

[dcontroversal]

Nevertheless, I believe in studying ALL the scriptures and obeying them. Not cherry picking only those scriptures that are easy on me.

Really, how so as you use three sets of verses out of context to teach your watered down blood that does not cover anything much less sin!.......

 

[dcontroversal]

a long post that is irrelevant to the topic. Again, you don't even understand your opponents position. I have not seen a single opponent of the view indicate anywhere that they did NOT believe that man is justified by faith and not works.

I surely believe in Justification by faith. But your problem is that simply being justified does not save a person. It puts one INTO Christ, puts man into a correct relationship, and man takes possession of his salvation, but he does not have title to it until the end, IF he remains faithful. And being faithful means he does the work of faith, works of righteousness, bears fruit. NO fruit, means no faith, means no salvation, he will not inherit the promise to be with Christ. Very simple instructions from scripture. Never does it teach "faith only" actually condemns it.
So, where is the evidence that "faith only" is a teaching of scripture?

Again you prove you lack of understanding when it comes to justification which is the result of biblical faith and salvation...

SAVED-->JUSTIFIED--->SANCTIFIED....nor do you understand the completed work of Christ and what it accomplished!

 

[Alligator]

Really, how so as you use three sets of verses out of context to teach your watered down blood that does not cover anything much less sin!.......

LOL,, "out of context". Ah, the most used cop out . Don't you think that's getting a little old?

 

[dcontroversal]

Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6;1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms that doctrine.


If we could lose our salvation, then we could NEVER EVER get it back Hebrews 6:4-6

If it is possible to sin after salvation, then repent from that sin, and be brought back, then salvation was never lost in the 1st place.

A father does not disown his child every time they make a mistake. No! He disciplines them, but they remain loved, and remain His child.

Amen to this as well as there remaineth NO MORE SACRIFICE for sin as once for all was sufficient to please the Heavenly Father which secures ETERNAL LIFE/SALVATION/JUSTIFICATION for all who exercise saving faith void of human works or effort!

 

[Cassian]

Again you miss the mark on at least two points off the top of my head....

1. Salvation by grace through faith based upon the mercy of God and HIS completed work has been taught from the beginning of a promised redeemer as found in Genesis 3:15 as applied to the fall of man...JESUS DID THE WORK

Which is why we don't need to do the work, That is why the Law of Works" cannot save us. Christ saved the world, so that man could be reunted with Him in an eternal relationship. That relationship is entered into by faith, believe what you just stated, that Christ saved mankind/the world from death and sin.

2. Luther reformed CATHOLIC DOCTRINE TO HIS OWN BELIEF...I AM NOT LUTHERN

Never claimed you were, but the idea of "being saved by faith only" is wholly his theory, which a lot of Protestants have adoped, including you.

3. IT IS YOU THAT TEACHES CATHOLIC DOCTRINE which is tied to the first LOST MAN AND HERETICAL TEACHER named CAIN and he taught HIS OWN WORKS which was rejected by GOD....

It would be hard to teach Catholic doctrine when I am not Catholic. But even at that you still are mischaracterizing your opposition, but why not, you have not facts to refute scripture.

4. What is tragic is the fact that you are twisting the scriptures to your own demise and if you fail to acknowledge Jesus by true faith void of your human effort you will cook for all eternal ages as Galatians teaches clearly against works as a supplement unto faith for salvation!

the word "devoid of human effort" is unscriptural. Even working with God through faith is human effort. Therein lies your main problem.

Having begun in faith are you now made complete by the works (of the flesh)

Mischaracterization again. Just cannot get it right. But then strawmen seem to be the only thing you can knock down.

WHO HATHE BEWITCHED YOU THAT YOU SHOULD NOT OBEY THEY TRUTH<-----FAITH ALONE FOR SALVATION!

which you have yet to prove is actually scriptural.

 

[Hoffco]

The true gospel turns the disobedient into obedient children

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.


Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying,

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


repentance and change of live to be obedient to Gods law of the universe in love
is the basis of what Jesus taught

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


if you acceept his forgiveness you must do his bidding

what is sin?
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

I want the holy ghost of love and obedience to God.
He is not given to the disobedient




so what happens when you tell a false doctrine of live like the devi cause I am saved for eternity" person the truth?

they always try to kill you


Acts 5:33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

one Baptists minister, after being shown he was absolutely wrong, grabbe my friend by his tie and was going to strangle him until his wife came to the rescue...



















2 Cor 2:9 The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything.
1 Pet 2:8 and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
1 Pet 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

you may get a few silly women to believe that false gospel:

2 Tim 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2 Tim 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2 Tim 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2 Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2 Tim 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

This is the best post of the 18 that I read. This is the true Gospel according to godliness. decontroversal, you have thrown you brain out the window with this thread, you are giving pure garbage, one sided ,twisted verses, half brain,half emotions, no Biblical sense. Sorry you need to read the whole book of
Galatians and get the whole message. Paul Paul starts with the holy work of God's powerful call, that makes sinners holy and separated from their old life. Justification is only the LEGAL side of salvation and is based on the work of Christ given as a gift by Grace, and received by Faith in Christ, not faith only, faith without the works,rituals, ceremonies, of the law; BUT, a faith that works holiness in ones life. Then Paul ends with the holy life of the Born again believer,ch.5 fruit of the SPIRIT, and ch. 6 If we sow to the Spirit we reap ETERNAL LIFE, if we sow to the flesh, WE REAP CORRUPTION., hell. What is so hard to see? that you have totally blown it? REPENT, Love Hoffco

 

[LT]

Which is why we don't need to do the work, That is why the Law of Works" cannot save us. Christ saved the world, so that man could be reunted with Him in an eternal relationship. That relationship is entered into by faith, believe what you just stated, that Christ saved mankind/the world from death and sin.



Never claimed you were, but the idea of "being saved by faith only" is wholly his theory, which a lot of Protestants have adoped, including you.

It would be hard to teach Catholic doctrine when I am not Catholic. But even at that you still are mischaracterizing your opposition, but why not, you have not facts to refute scripture.

the word "devoid of human effort" is unscriptural. Even working with God through faith is human effort. Therein lies your main problem.

Mischaracterization again. Just cannot get it right. But then strawmen seem to be the only thing you can knock down.

which you have yet to prove is actually scriptural.

I already did the footwork earlier.I guess no one wanted to read the verses...

...

 

[dcontroversal]

yet more attack.

You have been shown tons and tons of scripture also. Yet you continue to believe what you want.

Are you ever going to actually discuss things? You were asked quite a few questions earlier, yet not a peep. why is that?

I agree...what is hilarious is the fact that in reality they are the ones that are rejecting the word and deny the truth about eternal salvation....works plus faith = no salvation as they trust in themselves instead of Christ!

 

[dcontroversal]

I already did the footwork earlier.I guess no one wanted to read the verses...

I did bro and even commented on them......and I agree with the verses you listed as it is by grace through faith based upon the mercy of God and the completed work of Jesus on the cross!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ok. point taken , but if we are saved, we will have a heart for God, if we have a heart for God, we will do works. So if we dont have a desire to do works, them we may need to reevaluate our relationship with God

thanks you just explained james.

why would we need to re-evaluate pur relationship? Most likely because there is no relationship, our faith was dead, which is why we do not desire to work for God.

 

[Hoffco]

Sad to sad some of the worst people are Baptist pastors. But ,some of the best people are Baptist pastors, I know a few of them. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[dcontroversal]

This is the best post of the 18 that I read. This is the true Gospel according to godliness. decontroversal, you have thrown you brain out the window with this thread, you are giving pure garbage, one sided ,twisted verses, half brain,half emotions, no Biblical sense. Sorry you need to read the whole book of
Galatians and get the whole message. Paul Paul starts with the holy work of God's powerful call, that makes sinners holy and separated from their old life. Justification is only the LEGAL side of salvation and is based on the work of Christ given as a gift by Grace, and received by Faith in Christ, not faith only, faith without the works,rituals, ceremonies, of the law; BUT, a faith that works holiness in ones life. Then Paul ends with the holy life of the Born again believer,ch.5 fruit of the SPIRIT, and ch. 6 If we sow to the Spirit we reap ETERNAL LIFE, if we sow to the flesh, WE REAP CORRUPTION., hell. What is so hard to see? that you have totally blown it? REPENT, Love Hoffco

What ever dude.....My salvation is based upon grace, faith, mercy and the completed work of Jesus...if you trust in your works to gain or keep salvation then you are lost according to the bible.......NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT WE HAVE DONE BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HAS HE SAVED US....

I have studied through Galatians numerous times....I suggest you start studying and focus in on Aorist tense verbs as applied unto John 3:16 and Present tense Verbs when it comes to salvation...maybe what Justified means and how both DAVID and ABRAHAM as well as PAUL concluded that a man is saved and justified by FAITH void of the works of the law...

As far as the "stOOpid" statements and accusations that you have made tells me all I need to know about your spirit and lack of truth.....Yeah I know how to spell stupid!

18 whole posts...really...Your hilarious!

 

[Cassian]

You should know as you are the one who brags, boasts and believes in your own works for salvation because you fail to trust the one true path...HAHAH your bolded quote is a farce!

Again your misunderstanding and mischaracterization. However, in light to the topic which is a man made theory, namely by Luther, it is not scriptural. So you be default maybe are exulting a man made theory as actually being scriptural.
No place have I ever stated that I am boasting or even claiming as others that it is my works devoid of the Spirit.

It might help you to actually first understand your opponents then see if there is an error, rather than all these unfounded assertion, innuendo, mischaracterizations, and misstatments. You are batting in the breeze at those strawmen.