saved by christ works or saved by your own?,,,,

[RickShafer]

Yea, about the bringing a fallen one back..........is not this another work of Grace?!
I mean, the song 'Amazing Grace' was written by an ex-slave ship captain.
And Paul was the chiefest of sinners - (He almost single-handedly snuffed out the early church).
He was such a persuasive speaker that those that stoned Stephen laid their coats at his feet
in preparation to stone him. He was such a legalist that Jesus had to appear before his face to get
his attention. (And this is why he had eye trouble throughout the rest of his life)
God puts us here to help each other. Because there is an enemy that takes no prisoners.

 

[RickShafer]

What if a sheep becomes lost and stays hidden from the Shepherd, as to not to be found?

It's impossible.
Where are they going to hide?
Jonah? - (one large fish......coming up!)

 

[cfultz3]

Yea, about the bringing a fallen one back..........is not this another work of Grace?! In the Shepherd going to find His lost sheep out of His love for that sheep is very much an act of Grace. But listen to the selected wording of my question, if the sheep chooses not to be found, do you believe that the Shepherd will force His Lordship and 'drag' the sheep back with or without the sheep's consent?


Just so you know, questioning is the way I prefer to communicate so that I can get the reader to think. So please don't take it as an inquisition.

 

[cfultz3]

What if a sheep becomes lost and stays hidden from the Shepherd, as to not to be found?

It's impossible.
Where are they going to hide?
Jonah? - (one large fish......coming up!)

Read post 63 to see what I mean by that.

 

[RickShafer]

Are you saying that our believe is given by God? If you are saying this, then what about all the whosoevers will believe?

Again, how can a person come to God unless they are drawn?
The whosoevers are all those given the immutable grace to heed the call.
(Jesus couldn't name them all, the sermon would have gotten long)
I see your point, - why didn't He say 'those whom I have called', or 'those who the Father has given Me'
Well, your a greek scholar, why don't you look that word up?
I say God is omnipotent to the point of hardening a heart(Pharaoh) or softening one(Saul of Tarsus).
I mean, He didn't appear before pharaoh's face. He plagued his kingdom.
In this sense I think that pride and arrogance weigh into the equation.
Saul(Paul), really did think he was doing the work of God. And Pharaoh was just ruling......
I do think we must be humble and contrite towards other people and towards God.
In this sense I think we might have some input as to how the Father deals with us.
But then again.......who made mankind?
Truthfully I think it is almost all - if not all; a work of the Holy Spirit of Grace.
Look at Moses! What made him want to leave the riches of egypt - in pharaoh's house, to suffer with
the people of God. - The writer of hebrews says it was because of his faith.
Again I ask you, what was his faith in? The hebrews were slaves.......(was not this
also a work of God)?

 

[RickShafer]

Yea, about the bringing a fallen one back..........is not this another work of Grace?! In the Shepherd going to find His lost sheep out of His love for that sheep is very much an act of Grace. But listen to the selected wording of my question, if the sheep chooses not to be found, do you believe that the Shepherd will force His Lordship and 'drag' the sheep back with or without the sheep's consent?


Just so you know, questioning is the way I prefer to communicate so that I can get the reader to think. So please don't take it as an inquisition.


No. Absolutely not. Why would He? If you want to follow Satan, follow Satan.
(But again, I think He puts His chosen ones in places easy to be found)
Sometimes the easiest place to be found is on skid row, or in a 10' x 10' prison cell.
And usually the hardest places to be found are in King's palaces, and opulent places.
(That's what makes Moses so special) -He talked with God for forty days!
So much glory rubbed off on him that they had to cover his face!

 

[RickShafer]

Again, i speak from my understand and feel free to correct me. But if all the actions of the Christian is the actions controlled by the Spirit, then why are we told to become co-participants of the Spirit's works? And what about the wreaths (our treasure we build up in Heaven) given based on our remaining works? This is not to take glory away from God, why are we rewarded for our good deeds and not the Spirit? But most certainly, we could do no good of our own to boast, but those things done in conjuction with the Spirit, are those things which shall remain.


These are things that the Holy Spirit uses us to accomplish.
It's like I play guitar, and if I have a guitar that is set up just right, and the notes a crisp as the fingers fly......
and it sounds great and it's easy to play............Hey, I love that guitar. It works for me, it almost becomes one with
me in my hands. And so are many metaphors that Jesus gives us in the gospels.
This is the sanctification..........now if I have a guitar that doesn't sound good or is hard to play, I don't bust it up or
throw it away. I take it back to the bench and work on it. This is like the work of sanctification. God, if He isn't pleased
with us, (or how we perform), doesn't just throw us away. He works on us, He fine tunes us, He lowers the bridge, He files down the nut, He changes the strings, He adjusts the neck rod. Then He tries us out, and keeps at it.
None of my guitars ever fixed themselves, but every one of them ended up perfectamundo.
This is how God treats us, this is how God refines us. And THIS......is the work of sanctification.(He does the work)......
(We yield). What if we don't yield you ask? Why wouldn't you? Who's stopping you?

 

[willfollowsGod]

And Paul was the chiefest of sinners - (He almost single-handedly snuffed out the early church).
He was such a persuasive speaker that those that stoned Stephen laid their coats at his feet
in preparation to stone him. He was such a legalist that Jesus had to appear before his face to get
his attention. (And this is why he had eye trouble throughout the rest of his life)
God puts us here to help each other. Because there is an enemy that takes no prisoners.

This has nothing to do with the friendly debate you are doing with another believer. But this is an observation, you say that because Paul was such a legalist, Jesus had to appear before his face to get his attention. I could agree on that, But what is put in parentheses after that: ''And this is why he had eye trouble throughout the rest of his life." That I disagree with, Paul got healed from his blindness through the Holy Spirit in Ananias, a disciple of Jesus Christ. The reason why he might have had eye trouble throughout the rest of his life, might have been due to the beatings he faced for the sake of the gospel or sometime of eye disease or something. But I believe it is not connected to Paul seeing the light that he saw in the desert going toward Damascus.

 

[RickShafer]

And Paul was the chiefest of sinners - (He almost single-handedly snuffed out the early church).
He was such a persuasive speaker that those that stoned Stephen laid their coats at his feet
in preparation to stone him. He was such a legalist that Jesus had to appear before his face to get
his attention. (And this is why he had eye trouble throughout the rest of his life)
God puts us here to help each other. Because there is an enemy that takes no prisoners.

This has nothing to do with the friendly debate you are doing with another believer. But this is an observation, you say that because Paul was such a legalist, Jesus had to appear before his face to get his attention. I could agree on that, But what is put in parentheses after that: ''And this is why he had eye trouble throughout the rest of his life." That I disagree with, Paul got healed from his blindness through the Holy Spirit in Ananias, a disciple of Jesus Christ. The reason why he might have had eye trouble throughout the rest of his life, might have been due to the beatings he faced for the sake of the gospel or sometime of eye disease or something. But I believe it is not connected to Paul seeing the light that he saw in the desert going toward Damascus.

You could be right.
The reason I think it had something to do with his eye problems later in life is because of mainly one thing.
That the glorified Christ had to appear before his face to get his attention.
And we know that without faith, it is impossible to please God. So, ......if one sees the glorified Christ, .........you do the math.

 

[cfultz3]

Are you saying that our believe is given by God? If you are saying this, then what about all the whosoevers will believe?

Again, how can a person come to God unless they are drawn? -- Not in contradiction but in opinion, 'faith comes from (source) hearing and hearing through (channel of an act) the Word of God.' And 'how, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?' To my understanding, faith comes from hearing and then believing what you have heard to be true. To me, faith would seem to be a freewill choice. But then again, are you talking about the 'wooing' of the Spirit on a child of the rebellion to come to the Light? That, I fully agree with.

The whosoevers are all those given the immutable grace to heed the call. -- Would that not make God a respector of persons, seeing that He will call only those whom He will? The way I see it is that God offers salvation to all (the wooing of the Spirit), and we by willingness to open an ear to that wooing are hopefully led to a conviction.

(Jesus couldn't name them all, the sermon would have gotten long) -- LOL I guess we all would still be reading the list and looking for our names and those of our loved ones.

I see your point, - why didn't He say 'those whom I have called', or 'those who the Father has given Me' -- From my understand, they who accepted the wooing of the Spirit are those who are of the calling (this is how I see John 6:65 also). So, when I see 'thosee who are called', I see that definition of one accepting grace and becoming a collective of the 'calling out'. As to John 17:24, verse 23 tells me that He is speaking about the apostles when He said, 'thy whom you have given me'. May I also add that when He said, 'Behold, I and the children whom God has given me' He is speaking about those who were guided to become reborn.

Well, your a greek scholar, why don't you look that word up? -- Thank you, but all credit goes to God for the Gift of understanding He has given me in the absoluteness (literness) of His Word. My thirst, my hunger is for His truth unadulterated. But, as pertaining to the word 'whosoever', it is subjunctive and means no more and no less than the word we use nowadays, 'anyone'. I am not throwing the following verse in as an opporunity, but take for example, Matthew 12:50: "Seeing that anyone who shall do the Will of my Father who is in Heaven, the same is my brother, also sister, also mother." To me, that means anybody has the opportunity to believe and when they obey God so that they can be led to perfection through the Spirit, they become a fellow of the Son.

I say God is omnipotent to the point of hardening a heart(Pharaoh) or softening one(Saul of Tarsus).
I mean, He didn't appear before pharaoh's face. He plagued his kingdom.
In this sense I think that pride and arrogance weigh into the equation.
Saul(Paul), really did think he was doing the work of God. And Pharaoh was just ruling...... --- In the examples you have given, I agree that God can harden or soften a heart at His will for a purpose. And since He is omnipotent, He knew Pharaoh's heart, and because I do not know either way, I can only assume that God knew he would never come to Him, so He used a wicked person to do His will. Again, being omnipotent, I assume God knew Paul's heart and that He would be the Apostle to the Gentiles. But, I do not see where God, out of equity (righteousness) would harden someone's heart, not given them the opportunity to choose. This brings to mind where it is said that when God is judged let Him be found true (to Himself) and every man a liar.
I do think we must be humble and contrite towards other people and towards God.
In this sense I think we might have some input as to how the Father deals with us.
But then again.......who made mankind? --- HMMMM. Don't tell me

Truthfully I think it is almost all - if not all; a work of the Holy Spirit of Grace. -- He certainly woos. He certainly tills. He certainly leads towards God. So very much YES.

Look at Moses! What made him want to leave the riches of egypt - in pharaoh's house, to suffer with the people of God. - The writer of hebrews says it was because of his faith. --Yes. But even here, I must interject obedience by choice. What if he said no. God would either moved on, destroyed him, or continued to call upon him. Agreed?

Again I ask you, what was his faith in? --- He trusted in God. But I do not know if that is what you are intended to convey.

The hebrews were slaves.......(was not this also a work of God)? -- Yes God was involved in the calling to do His will, but I don't 'think' God would force His will upon a freewilled being, seeing that if He did so, He would have violated that being's will.


Again, everything I said was of opinion not contradiction.

 

[cfultz3]

Again, i speak from my understand and feel free to correct me. But if all the actions of the Christian is the actions controlled by the Spirit, then why are we told to become co-participants of the Spirit's works? And what about the wreaths (our treasure we build up in Heaven) given based on our remaining works? This is not to take glory away from God, why are we rewarded for our good deeds and not the Spirit? But most certainly, we could do no good of our own to boast, but those things done in conjuction with the Spirit, are those things which shall remain.


These are things that the Holy Spirit uses us to accomplish.
It's like I play guitar, and if I have a guitar that is set up just right, and the notes a crisp as the fingers fly......
and it sounds great and it's easy to play............Hey, I love that guitar. It works for me, it almost becomes one with
me in my hands. And so are many metaphors that Jesus gives us in the gospels.
This is the sanctification..........now if I have a guitar that doesn't sound good or is hard to play, I don't bust it up or
throw it away. I take it back to the bench and work on it. This is like the work of sanctification. God, if He isn't pleased
with us, (or how we perform), doesn't just throw us away. He works on us, He fine tunes us, He lowers the bridge, He files down the nut, He changes the strings, He adjusts the neck rod. Then He tries us out, and keeps at it.
None of my guitars ever fixed themselves, but every one of them ended up perfectamundo.
This is how God treats us, this is how God refines us. And THIS......is the work of sanctification.(He does the work)...... In total agreement and love the metaphor of the guitar.
(We yield). What if we don't yield you ask? Why wouldn't you? Who's stopping you? -- the person himself. That one guitar who went to the dessert and whithered away in his thorns and briers, to only be burned up.

 

[cfultz3]

This old man needs to go to bed now. Thank you so much for debating civally, a truly refreshing spring of wate. I can go to bed tonight relaxed.
I am so and so, thank you by brother for your words of edification concerning me.

 

[Powemm]

I am not saved by anything I have done , am doing , or will ever do.. I am saved because of what Christ has done , is doing, and continues to do for me.. it is written " It is finished!". There's nothing man needs to do to earn His salvation, Christ already did it... I work on This earth not to the glory of man or his kingdom.. I work in the absence of our Dear Lord and Master "Jesus Christ" In His Kingdom , doing a good work in Honor and glory of Him until He returns

 

[RickShafer]

Well done my friend.
You have made me think; - (which is a good thing........always).

 

[Abiding]

what
Powemm said.

 

[ReinItIn]

salvation comes from Christs

 

[Abiding]

salvation comes from Christs

Hey hope it was fun and pleasant

 

[RickShafer]

'(We yield). What if we don't yield you ask? Why wouldn't you? Who's stopping you? -- the person himself. That one guitar who went to the dessert and whithered away in his thorns and briers, to only be burned up.'

But Jesus leaves the 99 to find and save the one.
It's still an act of grace.

 

[RickShafer]

The title of the thread is 'Saved by Christ's works, or saved by your own?'
Clearly the finished works of God in Jesus Christ.
There are no co-redeemers.
Sanctification and Salvation are separate works.

 

[Abiding]

Rick what i dont understand is that every person ive known that was
saved...cared night and day to please the Lord. Often times over did it.
He gives us a new heart and new holy affections. And providentially
guides us along.

Why these new groups of folk think they have a job pointing
out what people hunger and thirst for by grace has me baffled.
I believe its just a distraction.

Who are they? Are they the special ones that got a clue and the
rest of us missed the boat somehow? Did they get a special
revelation that sin has something to do with things and others
just didnt get the memo?