saved by christ works or saved by your own?,,,,
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C
Hi Rick,
glad we can continue this brotherly spoken conversation. Sorry if I am longwinded, but my thoughts try to connect the verses. Also, the things which I say are not only to you, but to all who will read what I have to say (meaning: I speak so people can ponder).
When the Shepherd comes upon the lost sheep, there are several possible outcomes which I can think of offhand.
1) The sheep returns willfully or forcible (freewill vs. forced Lordship)
In this case, we know we have freewill and God will not force His will upon us. Examples: Lucifer and the fallen angels, Adam and Eve, Moses not being forced to speak in God's place, the 'all of us given a choice to follow good or evil, death or live'. This being so, we cannot say our Shepherd will force us back into the herd. This neither states that He has forsaken us, but that we have freewill in as much as those in the examples had.
2) The sheep is destroyed by wolves. (entangled in the world again)
In this case, there is amble warnings and orders (imperatives) telling us that if we do go back to where we were delivered from, then it would be better if we have not know the Truth in the first place. A dog returns to his vomit, a fool to his foolishness, a swine to her mire (note that the swine was cleansed). I honestly ask, if it is not possible to backslide, then why all the warnings and if..thens and promises and hope and the command from Jesus, 'follow behind Me'. If we are to walk in His footprints towards a goal, but instead of walking in those footsteps, we purposely fall off the edge, what do we have to look forward to if not fiery indignation. This is not saying that He won't forgive us when we get back on the path, but if the person chooses not to return.
3) The sheep says to the Shepherd, 'The grass is greenier on this side.' (freewill)
Choose you this day whom you shall follow. From this, we cannot say that it means choose whom you will be forevermore lead by, seeing that those who were led by the flesh had a choice to leave it and follow Christ. And again, brother, we do not lose freewill. Seeing that if we did, then the decision to follow Him was not a choice but an action of a dictator who cleverly disguist his dictatorship as a choice (If a polite Hitler would have said, 'will you clean that up', is that really a choice?).
4) The Shepherd says to the sheep, 'As you wish'. (foreced Lordship)
Now to the meat of the matter. If God is to judge the world and we are held accountable for our own actions, how then can God judge righteously and by what standard will He judge by if we, after being saved, sin as those who are of the world? It is written, 'if our unrighteousness introduces the righteousness of God....how then shall God judge the world?...Why am I yet judged as a sinner?'. God is faithful to Himself and will carry out that which He has spoken. Everlasting life to those who loves Him. Adverse judgment on those who are wicked.
glad we can continue this brotherly spoken conversation. Sorry if I am longwinded, but my thoughts try to connect the verses. Also, the things which I say are not only to you, but to all who will read what I have to say (meaning: I speak so people can ponder).
When the Shepherd comes upon the lost sheep, there are several possible outcomes which I can think of offhand.
1) The sheep returns willfully or forcible (freewill vs. forced Lordship)
In this case, we know we have freewill and God will not force His will upon us. Examples: Lucifer and the fallen angels, Adam and Eve, Moses not being forced to speak in God's place, the 'all of us given a choice to follow good or evil, death or live'. This being so, we cannot say our Shepherd will force us back into the herd. This neither states that He has forsaken us, but that we have freewill in as much as those in the examples had.
2) The sheep is destroyed by wolves. (entangled in the world again)
In this case, there is amble warnings and orders (imperatives) telling us that if we do go back to where we were delivered from, then it would be better if we have not know the Truth in the first place. A dog returns to his vomit, a fool to his foolishness, a swine to her mire (note that the swine was cleansed). I honestly ask, if it is not possible to backslide, then why all the warnings and if..thens and promises and hope and the command from Jesus, 'follow behind Me'. If we are to walk in His footprints towards a goal, but instead of walking in those footsteps, we purposely fall off the edge, what do we have to look forward to if not fiery indignation. This is not saying that He won't forgive us when we get back on the path, but if the person chooses not to return.
3) The sheep says to the Shepherd, 'The grass is greenier on this side.' (freewill)
Choose you this day whom you shall follow. From this, we cannot say that it means choose whom you will be forevermore lead by, seeing that those who were led by the flesh had a choice to leave it and follow Christ. And again, brother, we do not lose freewill. Seeing that if we did, then the decision to follow Him was not a choice but an action of a dictator who cleverly disguist his dictatorship as a choice (If a polite Hitler would have said, 'will you clean that up', is that really a choice?).
4) The Shepherd says to the sheep, 'As you wish'. (foreced Lordship)
Now to the meat of the matter. If God is to judge the world and we are held accountable for our own actions, how then can God judge righteously and by what standard will He judge by if we, after being saved, sin as those who are of the world? It is written, 'if our unrighteousness introduces the righteousness of God....how then shall God judge the world?...Why am I yet judged as a sinner?'. God is faithful to Himself and will carry out that which He has spoken. Everlasting life to those who loves Him. Adverse judgment on those who are wicked.
Freewill is daily life stuff.
It's like I could become a freemason, but why would I because I know the foundations on which freemasonry
are laid; namely in occultism.
Now if I was already a freemason, and I come to the knowledge of the Truth;
it is up to me to follow my Lord's leadings.
And this is why God, in His immutable power and grace keeps His own from straying.
If you are already in a state of being outside His will,(which we all are when we come to Him);
then by His grace He will deliver us from our present eternal-life threatening circumstances.
It's like I could become a freemason, but why would I because I know the foundations on which freemasonry
are laid; namely in occultism.
Now if I was already a freemason, and I come to the knowledge of the Truth;
it is up to me to follow my Lord's leadings.
And this is why God, in His immutable power and grace keeps His own from straying.
If you are already in a state of being outside His will,(which we all are when we come to Him);
then by His grace He will deliver us from our present eternal-life threatening circumstances.
M
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. 36“But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. 37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” - John 6
11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12“He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13“He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.” - John 10
11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12“He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13“He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.” - John 10
C
Hi Rick,
glad we can continue this brotherly spoken conversation. Sorry if I am longwinded, but my thoughts try to connect the verses. Also, the things which I say are not only to you, but to all who will read what I have to say (meaning: I speak so people can ponder).
When the Shepherd comes upon the lost sheep, there are several possible outcomes which I can think of offhand.
1) The sheep returns willfully or forcible (freewill vs. forced Lordship)
In this case, we know we have freewill and God will not force His will upon us. Examples: Lucifer and the fallen angels, Adam and Eve, Moses not being forced to speak in God's place, the 'all of us given a choice to follow good or evil, death or live'. This being so, we cannot say our Shepherd will force us back into the herd. This neither states that He has forsaken us, but that we have freewill in as much as those in the examples had.
- Moses is a perfect example. He killed a man. He also struck the rock, (signifying in what
manner those who sat in his seat would treat the Rock when He showed up). Moses' acts of disobedience were dealt with in this life, (he had to flee and be an outcast for forty years, and he could not enter the promised land). So it is with every believer, Paul calls it hay, wood, and stubble.
-- I am sorry. I do not see how this addresses freewill. I understand that he got punished while he was still living, seeing that those who belong to God are chastized by Him. But, neither can we deny that those who do not wish to remain in fellowship with God, Adam and Eve being the perfeect example, has as much freewill to leave that fellowship as they did.
2) The sheep is destroyed by wolves. (entangled in the world again)
In this case, there is amble warnings and orders (imperatives) telling us that if we do go back to where we were delivered from, then it would be better if we have not know the Truth in the first place. A dog returns to his vomit, a fool to his foolishness, a swine to her mire (note that the swine was cleansed). I honestly ask, if it is not possible to backslide, then why all the warnings and if..thens and promises and hope and the command from Jesus, 'follow behind Me'. If we are to walk in His footprints towards a goal, but instead of walking in those footsteps, we purposely fall off the edge, what do we have to look forward to if not fiery indignation. This is not saying that He won't forgive us when we get back on the path, but if the person chooses not to return.
- The sheep are never forsaken. When Peter denied Jesus three times did God disown him? Also, there has never been a person who ceased completely from sin after the time of conversion.
--Yes, the Shepherd will never forsake us. Seeing that he must have asked for forgiveness in order for him to have remained an Apostel, he received forgiveness, much as we are when we ask. I ask, 'and if the person desires not to ask, but chooses to remain in whatever sin, and denies any attempt of God in bringing him back, does there remain a sacrifice for him? Our Advocate is there when we seek reconciliation. But, if none is sought, then none is given. I am sure you agree, by the things you say, that one cannot continue to sin willfully and still be considered to be in the Light, seeing that there is no dimness in the Light? That is: must we be converted or can we stay as we are found?
3) The sheep says to the Shepherd, 'The grass is greenier on this side.' (freewill)
Choose you this day whom you shall follow. From this, we cannot say that it means choose whom you will be forevermore lead by, seeing that those who were led by the flesh had a choice to leave it and follow Christ. And again, brother, we do not lose freewill. Seeing that if we did, then the decision to follow Him was not a choice but an action of a dictator who cleverly disguist his dictatorship as a choice (If a polite Hitler would have said, 'will you clean that up', is that really a choice?).
- I would have to say in this case that our lives are long, and God has plenty of time to show us how much less green that grass on the other side verily was.
--and of freewill?
4) The Shepherd says to the sheep, 'As you wish'. (foreced Lordship)
Now to the meat of the matter. If God is to judge the world and we are held accountable for our own actions,
- (how is it we are judged by our own actions and not by the yardstick of the perfect life and obedient death of Jesus Christ if we are in Him?)
-- We all must give an account to God (Rom 14:15). Christ is our righteousness, our wisdom, our sanctification, and our redemption as long as we abide in Him. But we are also told that if the righteous shall turn away from his righteousness to do moral evil, then his righteousness is not remembered and he shall die. If one remains in Him then the secord part of your statement holds true. But what if, out of freewill, he chooses to turn away? He is then accountable for his own actions. Now, for those who are His, those works which remain, those things shall be reward. But nevertheless, we all must give an account.
-------------------------
how then can God judge righteously and by what standard will He judge by if we, after being saved, sin as those who are of the world? - (because even if we don't sin as though we are in the world, the least bit stains us and makes us unfit if in fact we are judged by our own righteousness)
-- those who are not of the faith shall be judged by thier works. We of faith shall have our deeds runned through the Fire and that which remains shall be rewarded. If he has no works, he is yet saved. Why? because of faith. Before you get giddyish about that statement, that faith must have be active in the sense that we are to be led home. There is much to be said of that, but for now, that should suffice.
-------------------------
It is written, 'if our unrighteousness introduces the righteousness of God....how then shall God judge the world?
- (again, this is talking about spurious claims to the fact of one claiming to be saved who is not)
--how is this talking about one who is falsely claiming to be a Christain, when Paul is saying that if I sin to show the righteousness of God, then how can God judge sin if I use sin to show you how how righteous God is? Would not God not be unjust to judge sinners and yet not me for doing the same thing. God forbid that it should be said of Him that He is unfair.
------------------------
...Why am I yet judged as a sinner?'. - (Paul states this as answering those who accused him of being an heretic for his 'radical' grace doctrine, that's why there are dots between what he said before that you quoted and this statement - they are unrelated)
-- Would not God be unjust if He judged the sinners for sinning, but yet allowed sinning for the Christians so that His righteousness can be shown? You just opened my eyes to a Truth here. Listen: they who find pleasure in sin even though they are in the house of faith, will be judged as a sinner. Would it not be wrong for God to say it was ok for us, but not for the children of the rebellion? This brings us back to the one who was righteous but turned away to a life of sin and who will die as the unbelievers. So, if it is possible for one of us to loose the salvation we had when we were righteous, then we need to give heed to all of Scripture. Evey if...then has an else clause. That else clause may or may not be spoken, but if you the reader will take time and do a study of the ifs, and use the wisdom and knowledge given to by having the mind of Christ, you will see this too. Example: 'if you keep my commandments, then you shall remain in my love...." or else, 'if you do not keep my commandments, then you shall not remain in my love.'
　
Not specifically towards you, but some of those of the OSAS doctrine will say that we do not have to keep His commandments because that would be of work, even though such a statement is calling Jesus a liar. What if we do not keep His commandments? Do we love Him still? Or do we continue to call Him a liar when He said, 'if you desire to enter life, keep my commandments'. So, if we do not keep His commandments, we do not remain in His love, and neither will we enter into live. Note that when Jesus said, if you desire to enter life...' He was speaking to those who desire to have a fellowship with God.
　
Sorry about that running thought. Could not stop it.
　
--------------------------
God is faithful to Himself and will carry out that which He has spoken. - Amen
Everlasting life to those who loves Him. Adverse judgment on those who are wicked.
glad we can continue this brotherly spoken conversation. Sorry if I am longwinded, but my thoughts try to connect the verses. Also, the things which I say are not only to you, but to all who will read what I have to say (meaning: I speak so people can ponder).
When the Shepherd comes upon the lost sheep, there are several possible outcomes which I can think of offhand.
1) The sheep returns willfully or forcible (freewill vs. forced Lordship)
In this case, we know we have freewill and God will not force His will upon us. Examples: Lucifer and the fallen angels, Adam and Eve, Moses not being forced to speak in God's place, the 'all of us given a choice to follow good or evil, death or live'. This being so, we cannot say our Shepherd will force us back into the herd. This neither states that He has forsaken us, but that we have freewill in as much as those in the examples had.
- Moses is a perfect example. He killed a man. He also struck the rock, (signifying in what
manner those who sat in his seat would treat the Rock when He showed up). Moses' acts of disobedience were dealt with in this life, (he had to flee and be an outcast for forty years, and he could not enter the promised land). So it is with every believer, Paul calls it hay, wood, and stubble.
-- I am sorry. I do not see how this addresses freewill. I understand that he got punished while he was still living, seeing that those who belong to God are chastized by Him. But, neither can we deny that those who do not wish to remain in fellowship with God, Adam and Eve being the perfeect example, has as much freewill to leave that fellowship as they did.
2) The sheep is destroyed by wolves. (entangled in the world again)
In this case, there is amble warnings and orders (imperatives) telling us that if we do go back to where we were delivered from, then it would be better if we have not know the Truth in the first place. A dog returns to his vomit, a fool to his foolishness, a swine to her mire (note that the swine was cleansed). I honestly ask, if it is not possible to backslide, then why all the warnings and if..thens and promises and hope and the command from Jesus, 'follow behind Me'. If we are to walk in His footprints towards a goal, but instead of walking in those footsteps, we purposely fall off the edge, what do we have to look forward to if not fiery indignation. This is not saying that He won't forgive us when we get back on the path, but if the person chooses not to return.
- The sheep are never forsaken. When Peter denied Jesus three times did God disown him? Also, there has never been a person who ceased completely from sin after the time of conversion.
--Yes, the Shepherd will never forsake us. Seeing that he must have asked for forgiveness in order for him to have remained an Apostel, he received forgiveness, much as we are when we ask. I ask, 'and if the person desires not to ask, but chooses to remain in whatever sin, and denies any attempt of God in bringing him back, does there remain a sacrifice for him? Our Advocate is there when we seek reconciliation. But, if none is sought, then none is given. I am sure you agree, by the things you say, that one cannot continue to sin willfully and still be considered to be in the Light, seeing that there is no dimness in the Light? That is: must we be converted or can we stay as we are found?
3) The sheep says to the Shepherd, 'The grass is greenier on this side.' (freewill)
Choose you this day whom you shall follow. From this, we cannot say that it means choose whom you will be forevermore lead by, seeing that those who were led by the flesh had a choice to leave it and follow Christ. And again, brother, we do not lose freewill. Seeing that if we did, then the decision to follow Him was not a choice but an action of a dictator who cleverly disguist his dictatorship as a choice (If a polite Hitler would have said, 'will you clean that up', is that really a choice?).
- I would have to say in this case that our lives are long, and God has plenty of time to show us how much less green that grass on the other side verily was.
--and of freewill?
4) The Shepherd says to the sheep, 'As you wish'. (foreced Lordship)
Now to the meat of the matter. If God is to judge the world and we are held accountable for our own actions,
- (how is it we are judged by our own actions and not by the yardstick of the perfect life and obedient death of Jesus Christ if we are in Him?)
-- We all must give an account to God (Rom 14:15). Christ is our righteousness, our wisdom, our sanctification, and our redemption as long as we abide in Him. But we are also told that if the righteous shall turn away from his righteousness to do moral evil, then his righteousness is not remembered and he shall die. If one remains in Him then the secord part of your statement holds true. But what if, out of freewill, he chooses to turn away? He is then accountable for his own actions. Now, for those who are His, those works which remain, those things shall be reward. But nevertheless, we all must give an account.
-------------------------
how then can God judge righteously and by what standard will He judge by if we, after being saved, sin as those who are of the world? - (because even if we don't sin as though we are in the world, the least bit stains us and makes us unfit if in fact we are judged by our own righteousness)
-- those who are not of the faith shall be judged by thier works. We of faith shall have our deeds runned through the Fire and that which remains shall be rewarded. If he has no works, he is yet saved. Why? because of faith. Before you get giddyish about that statement, that faith must have be active in the sense that we are to be led home. There is much to be said of that, but for now, that should suffice.
-------------------------
It is written, 'if our unrighteousness introduces the righteousness of God....how then shall God judge the world?
- (again, this is talking about spurious claims to the fact of one claiming to be saved who is not)
--how is this talking about one who is falsely claiming to be a Christain, when Paul is saying that if I sin to show the righteousness of God, then how can God judge sin if I use sin to show you how how righteous God is? Would not God not be unjust to judge sinners and yet not me for doing the same thing. God forbid that it should be said of Him that He is unfair.
------------------------
...Why am I yet judged as a sinner?'. - (Paul states this as answering those who accused him of being an heretic for his 'radical' grace doctrine, that's why there are dots between what he said before that you quoted and this statement - they are unrelated)
-- Would not God be unjust if He judged the sinners for sinning, but yet allowed sinning for the Christians so that His righteousness can be shown? You just opened my eyes to a Truth here. Listen: they who find pleasure in sin even though they are in the house of faith, will be judged as a sinner. Would it not be wrong for God to say it was ok for us, but not for the children of the rebellion? This brings us back to the one who was righteous but turned away to a life of sin and who will die as the unbelievers. So, if it is possible for one of us to loose the salvation we had when we were righteous, then we need to give heed to all of Scripture. Evey if...then has an else clause. That else clause may or may not be spoken, but if you the reader will take time and do a study of the ifs, and use the wisdom and knowledge given to by having the mind of Christ, you will see this too. Example: 'if you keep my commandments, then you shall remain in my love...." or else, 'if you do not keep my commandments, then you shall not remain in my love.'
　
Not specifically towards you, but some of those of the OSAS doctrine will say that we do not have to keep His commandments because that would be of work, even though such a statement is calling Jesus a liar. What if we do not keep His commandments? Do we love Him still? Or do we continue to call Him a liar when He said, 'if you desire to enter life, keep my commandments'. So, if we do not keep His commandments, we do not remain in His love, and neither will we enter into live. Note that when Jesus said, if you desire to enter life...' He was speaking to those who desire to have a fellowship with God.
　
Sorry about that running thought. Could not stop it.
　
--------------------------
God is faithful to Himself and will carry out that which He has spoken. - Amen
Everlasting life to those who loves Him. Adverse judgment on those who are wicked.
C
Freewill is daily life stuff.
It's like I could become a freemason, but why would I because I know the foundations on which freemasonry
are laid; namely in occultism.
Now if I was already a freemason, and I come to the knowledge of the Truth;
it is up to me to follow my Lord's leadings. -- Exactly, nothing more, nothing less. If He tells you, then follow.
And this is why God, in His immutable power and grace keeps His own from straying.
If you are already in a state of being outside His will,(which we all are when we come to Him);
then by His grace He will deliver us from our present eternal-life threatening circumstances. --by all means He will lead us to the very place where we need to be. But let us not forget, He leads because we asked Him into our life and gave Him the reign. Can a mule be moved if he does not want to be moved? All I am saying, is that we have freewill and because we do, we have to daily give Him the reign.
It's like I could become a freemason, but why would I because I know the foundations on which freemasonry
are laid; namely in occultism.
Now if I was already a freemason, and I come to the knowledge of the Truth;
it is up to me to follow my Lord's leadings. -- Exactly, nothing more, nothing less. If He tells you, then follow.
And this is why God, in His immutable power and grace keeps His own from straying.
If you are already in a state of being outside His will,(which we all are when we come to Him);
then by His grace He will deliver us from our present eternal-life threatening circumstances. --by all means He will lead us to the very place where we need to be. But let us not forget, He leads because we asked Him into our life and gave Him the reign. Can a mule be moved if he does not want to be moved? All I am saying, is that we have freewill and because we do, we have to daily give Him the reign.
Yes, my main problem with such as CLAIM and recite is just this; that they are led to believe
just by pronunciation of the sinner's prayer they are saved.
I think this activity of reciting the sinners prayer has led to more misunderstanding and recitavism
than any other single thing.
Charles Finney, the great evangelist of the second great awakening, put forth the gospel and those that heard, and received, and wanted to be saved right then and there he forbade; and sent them home.
Telling them to go home and count the cost and if indeed they were serious, come back the next night.
Still, all salvation is a work of the Holy Spirit.
The lost 'sheep' who Jesus doesn't leave the 99 to retrieve was actually a goat.
There are NO co-redeemers.
just by pronunciation of the sinner's prayer they are saved.
I think this activity of reciting the sinners prayer has led to more misunderstanding and recitavism
than any other single thing.
Charles Finney, the great evangelist of the second great awakening, put forth the gospel and those that heard, and received, and wanted to be saved right then and there he forbade; and sent them home.
Telling them to go home and count the cost and if indeed they were serious, come back the next night.
Still, all salvation is a work of the Holy Spirit.
The lost 'sheep' who Jesus doesn't leave the 99 to retrieve was actually a goat.
There are NO co-redeemers.
G
Indeed. The Holy Spirit teaches us all Truth, even the Truth of Jesus dying on the cross and IF we want to accept that Truth or not is completely up to who?
God?
No, silly, us
Why would God not have things set up for freewill IF He was just going to do things His way or the highway. Not my God ! And, not yours either
Freewill . Without Christ, we are a wretched free, but, with Him, we are a righteous free .
God?
No, silly, us
Why would God not have things set up for freewill IF He was just going to do things His way or the highway. Not my God ! And, not yours either Freewill . Without Christ, we are a wretched free, but, with Him, we are a righteous free .