Saved by faith alone?

[studier]

The characteristics of different soils has value in a number of ways.
BTW...the passage doesn't say that 2 and 3 believed. It says received. Only 4 is said to understand.

Not for productivity. Only #4 has value. Interestingly in Luke8:15 it doesn't say they believed. It does say endurance however.
See Luke8:13 re: #2.

 

[Mem]

A

All great, but like others, you have left off from the purpose of this particular parable.

The purpose of the parable is an instruction guide, a teaching, of how a more abundant yield can is actualized. Isn't it?
I realize you receive the data as it is, but if you do nothing to apply the learning then how has the provided material profited you at all?

 

[Cameron143]

Not for productivity. Only #4 has value. Interestingly in Luke8:15 it doesn't say they believed. It does say endurance however.
See Luke8:13 re: #2.

You are correct, but only 4 heard with an honest and good heart. And only 4 understands in Matthew.
No comment on this?

 

[Intersection]

So they failed the test? But everyone did. Why do some get a pass and some don’t?

The fact that the elect get to heaven proves they did not fail the Gods test.

 

[Intersection]

You do understand that in Him is speaking about Jesus and Paul is explaining everyone is chosen to be in Jesus in order to be saved.

That literally says nothing about specific human beings but the fact that Jesus and being in Him is how we would be HOLY AND UNSPOTTED.

The "us" are Gods elect.

 

[GWH]

Scripture explains that the sower in the parable is God but that only tells us who owned the seed and disseminates it.

Realistically, no sower will ever walk up on completely good soil without having to break the ground and 'create' it. Roadside is not conducive to growing crop because it's too often trodden upon, so the sower would have to post a "stay off the grass" sign, or the vultures will only consider it a buffet table. And the rocks will hold water so seeds might sprout but they hold the seat up away from the reaching any nutrients in the soil and have nothing they can actually grab onto. And in the case of those growing among the thorns which we are told are cares of the world, that is useful in providing reader some horticultural insight to 'do not worry,' which would help in understanding exactly what would need to be pulled in order to clear that particular patch so that it is more conducive to growing crops.

In another post, I speculated that the man that pleaded, "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief," might have recognized the rocks in his heart and so was asking for help to remove the rocks out of the soil of his heart. I'd imagined that he had been 'often trodden down' by his child's condition.

IOW, he received the word and asked for strength in doing the work of removing the rocks so that the seed could flourish.

Mark 9:24 needs to be more emphasized as indicative of fallible faith.

 

[Cameron143]

The purpose of the parable is an instruction guide, a teaching, of how a more abundant yield can is actualized. Isn't it?
I realize you receive the data as it is, but if you do nothing to apply the learning then how has the provided material profited you at all?

The purpose isn't to suggest that soil change itself. That is impossible. It merely teaches what types of soil exist, and what the outcomes are for each soil. There is no admonition to change to the right kind of soil. Can soil change its consistency or location?

It's not that I don't agree with some things you and others are saying, but much of what is being said is not found in the parable.

 

[GWH]

The purpose isn't to suggest that soil change itself. That is impossible. It merely teaches what types of soil exist, and what the outcomes are for each soil. There is no admonition to change to the right kind of soil. Can soil change its consistency or location?

It's not that I don't agree with some things you and others are saying, but much of what is being said is not found in the parable.

Of course it is the point of the parable!
Otherwise, what is the point of telling the parable?
Telling it would be a waste of breath.

 

[Cameron143]

Of course it is the point of the parable!
Otherwise, what is the point of telling the parable?
Telling it would be a waste of breath.

So, if the purpose is for to change, where are the instructions on how to change?
People can't change color or leopards their spots, but soil can change its consistency and location?

 

[studier]

You are correct, but only 4 heard with an honest and good heart. And only 4 understands in Matthew.
No comment on this?

Comment re: what specifically? There are different things stated by different writers:

Matthew:
8 "But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. (Matt. 13:8 NKJ)

23 "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Matt. 13:23 NKJ)

Mark:
8 "But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." (Mk. 4:8 NKJ)

20 "But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." (Mk. 4:20 NKJ)

Luke:
8 "But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold." When He had said these things He cried, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" (Lk. 8:8 NKJ)

15 "But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience endurance. (Lk. 8:15 NKJ)

 

[GWH]

So, if the purpose is for to change, where are the instructions on how to change?
People can't change color or leopards their spots, but soil can change its consistency and location?

In a nutshell: repent/seek. The longer explanation: The Sermon on the Mount--a long breath that was not wasted
but rather recorded for our edification--although apparently it went over the head of some folks.

 

[Magenta]

Comment re: what specifically? There are different things stated by different writers:

Matthew:
8 "But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. (Matt. 13:8 NKJ)

23 "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Matt. 13:23 NKJ)

Mark:
8 "But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." (Mk. 4:8 NKJ)

20 "But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." (Mk. 4:20 NKJ)

Luke:
8 "But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold." When He had said these things He cried, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" (Lk. 8:8 NKJ)

15 "But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience endurance. (Lk. 8:15 NKJ)

I hope you took note of the fact that Jesus is directing His words to those with ears to hear, and we already know, because Scripture explicitly articulates>>> in the words of Jesus as well>>> that not everyone hears. Although come to think of it, I believe you are one of those who says everyone hears, even though Scripture says otherwise.

 

[Cameron143]

Comment re: what specifically? There are different things stated by different writers:

Matthew:
8 "But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. (Matt. 13:8 NKJ)

23 "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Matt. 13:23 NKJ)

Mark:
8 "But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." (Mk. 4:8 NKJ)

20 "But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." (Mk. 4:20 NKJ)

Luke:
8 "But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold." When He had said these things He cried, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" (Lk. 8:8 NKJ)

15 "But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience endurance. (Lk. 8:15 NKJ)

Other than accept for receive in Mark 4:20, I believe the texts are fine. Now we are back to descriptive or prescriptive.

 

[studier]

The purpose isn't to suggest that soil change itself. That is impossible. It merely teaches what types of soil exist, and what the outcomes are for each soil. There is no admonition to change to the right kind of soil. Can soil change its consistency or location?

It's not that I don't agree with some things you and others are saying, but much of what is being said is not found in the parable.

Of course it is the point of the parable!
Otherwise, what is the point of telling the parable?
Telling it would be a waste of breath.

This is one of the reasons I mentioned putting myself in the position of a listener, let's enhance it and say one of those who heard Jesus' explanation. If I was personalizing the message I'd be concerned about making certain I was 4th soil and knowing the importance of enduring for production, especially as Luke words it.

Then, knowing what we know from the rest of the Text, might a 4th soil in Christ in Spirit encourage a 2nd and 3rd soil to abide and endure and be a 4th soil? That's one of the issues with these parables; ultimately men are not soil as men are not sheep. Maybe some are dumb as a rock, but even that can be overcome.

 

[Cameron143]

In a nutshell: repent/seek. The longer explanation: The Sermon on the Mount--a long breath that was not wasted
but rather recorded for our edification--although apparently it went over the head of some folks.

None of this is in the particular parable in view. Can you not stick with this particular parable and learn what it is teaching?

 

[studier]

Other than accept for receive in Mark 4:20, I believe the texts are fine. Now we are back to descriptive or prescriptive.

Accept is translated like this because it's a different word than the one translated as received. It means to acknowledge something to be correct.

I posted the different versions, so we were looking at them all for any discussion.

I've no interest in discussions re: descriptive or prescriptive. So will bow out if this is where you want to go.

 

[GWH]

None of this is in the particular parable in view. Can you not stick with this particular parable and learn what it is teaching?

I could, but harmonization is a better hermeneutical method than proof-texting,
as Jesus exemplified in TOJ #4.

TOJ #4: Harmonize all truth. [Matt. 4:7a] Jesus implied this important logical principle to apply when seeking the correct understanding of GW by saying, “It is also written”. If the Spirit of God inspired the biblical writers (2Pet. 1:20-21) and created the world (Gen. 1:1-3), then the best interpretation of a TOJ should harmonize the totality of revealed and scientific knowledge.

In his second temptation the devil quoted Scripture (Psa. 91:11-12) as though he were heeding the TOJ about LGW, but he attempted to deceive Jesus with a false interpretation (vice Deut. 6:16) so He would perform a miracle.

 

[Cameron143]

This is one of the reasons I mentioned putting myself in the position of a listener, let's enhance it and say one of those who heard Jesus' explanation. If I was personalizing the message I'd be concerned about making certain I was 4th soil and knowing the importance of enduring for production, especially as Luke words it.

Then, knowing what we know from the rest of the Text, might a 4th soil in Christ in Spirit encourage a 2nd and 3rd soil to abide and endure and be a 4th soil? That's one of the issues with these parables; ultimately men are not soil as men are not sheep. Maybe some are dumb as a rock, but even that can be overcome.

We should certainly attempt to make application of scripture once we understand its teaching. But making application without understanding is not pleasing to God. And while we should desire to help others in the faith, changing soil is analogous to changing hearts. And no mention of changing soils is advocated in the passage. The passage merely tells what is; not what to do about it.
Again, some good stuff, but not found in the passage.

 

[Cameron143]

I could, but harmonization is a better hermeneutical method than proof-texting,
as Jesus exemplified in TOJ #4.

TOJ #4: Harmonize all truth. [Matt. 4:7a] Jesus implied this important logical principle to apply when seeking the correct understanding of GW by saying, “It is also written”. If the Spirit of God inspired the biblical writers (2Pet. 1:20-21) and created the world (Gen. 1:1-3), then the best interpretation of a TOJ should harmonize the totality of revealed and scientific knowledge.

In his second temptation the devil quoted Scripture (Psa. 91:11-12) as though he were heeding the TOJ about LGW, but he attempted to deceive Jesus with a false interpretation (vice Deut. 6:16) so He would perform a miracle.

You cannot harmonize scripture you don't understand correctly. That leads to error. You only think you are harmonizing.

 

[Cameron143]

Accept is translated like this because it's a different word than the one translated as received. It means to acknowledge something to be correct.

I posted the different versions, so we were looking at them all for any discussion.

I've no interest in discussions re: descriptive or prescriptive. So will bow out if this is where you want to go.

Of course not. You would be forced to admit that the passage is only describing what types of soil the gospel encounters.

Interestingly, when Jesus sent out His disciples in 2's, He didn't tell them to attempt to change the soils their message fell on, but simply move on.