Saved by Water
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Let me show you how to show someone who is trusting in their "water baptism" how to understand that it is just water.
Tell them... this...
"Go back in time, and have Jesus back in heaven, ........He has not come yet.......He's still in heaven........Has not been virgin born yet.....
Now, go and get baptized, 234 times, per year, for the next 10 yrs.
Get confirmed in your church, sprinkled on, dunked, immersed., use a lake, pond, ocean...tub......whatever you like.
So that is 2340 water baptisms. Now,..... why are you not saved, yet you've been baptized in water, 2340 times?.
Why are you not saved?
Because the Savior is in Heaven, and His blood that saves you is not shed for you yet.
Tell them that., and it could be that God will open their eyes to their situation, and they will recognize they are in a WATER CULT, and they may try to escape it.
Maybe they will say....>" No thanks...... i'll take my chances with my Pope and Mary, and my water baptism".
But, maybe they will SEE THE LIGHT.
And if they are a Jehovah's Witness or similar water cult, its still possible they can escape this cult if they are shown the deception that is to try be born again by water..
Its worth a try.
Wansvic will never change his mind. He thinks he is the only one that can read scripture. No matter who tells him he was wrong he will argue with them and tell them they do not understand the bible.
He reminds me of a person that we had on another bible board. We did the same with him, pointed out the scripture, showed the Greek nothing mattered. He was stuck in his world and would not see anything. That man was a hard core "Oneness Pentecostal".
If you read through all the posts you will see that a number of people have pointed out his error but to no avail.
For Wansvic it has become "don't confuse me with facts". The only thing I can see to do with him is to leave him alone in his own little world.
He reminds me of a person that we had on another bible board. We did the same with him, pointed out the scripture, showed the Greek nothing mattered. He was stuck in his world and would not see anything. That man was a hard core "Oneness Pentecostal".
If you read through all the posts you will see that a number of people have pointed out his error but to no avail.
For Wansvic it has become "don't confuse me with facts". The only thing I can see to do with him is to leave him alone in his own little world.
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Why deflect? When are one's sins washed away/remitted as recorded in scripture?
Scripture is the final authority. And scripture makes it clear when one's sins are actually remitted.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:16
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Scripture is the final authority. And scripture makes it clear when one's sins are actually remitted.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 22:16
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
This is the only answer that I will give you, accept it or not.
Question, who can forgive sins? Luk 5:21 Who can forgive sins but God.
God forgave sins of the paralytic Mat 9:2
God forgave sins of the sinful woman Luk 7:47-48
If God can and does forgive sins then who are you to question Him? The best thing you can do is repent of your arrogance and seek forgiveness for your pride.
Question, who can forgive sins? Luk 5:21 Who can forgive sins but God.
God forgave sins of the paralytic Mat 9:2
God forgave sins of the sinful woman Luk 7:47-48
If God can and does forgive sins then who are you to question Him? The best thing you can do is repent of your arrogance and seek forgiveness for your pride.
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Well, not exactly.
John 20:21-23 ”So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
Also, did anyone read my post regarding John babptizing Jesus?: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/to-fulfil-all-righteousness.200717/
It corrects some of the assertions made here.
John 20:21-23 ”So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
Also, did anyone read my post regarding John babptizing Jesus?: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/to-fulfil-all-righteousness.200717/
It corrects some of the assertions made here.
This is a followup to the last post.
Here is a way to illustrate what the verse means.
The disciples go out preaching the gospel, announcing on what terms sins would be forgiven, and if these terms are not accepted, sins would be retained.
Some people repent of their sins and receive Christ Jesus as Lord. The disciples were authorized to tell them that their sins had been forgiven. Others refused to repent and would not believe the gospel message or trust in Christ Jesus for salvation. The disciples told them that they were still in their sins, and that when they die, they will suffer eternal separation in Hell.
Here is a way to illustrate what the verse means.
The disciples go out preaching the gospel, announcing on what terms sins would be forgiven, and if these terms are not accepted, sins would be retained.
Some people repent of their sins and receive Christ Jesus as Lord. The disciples were authorized to tell them that their sins had been forgiven. Others refused to repent and would not believe the gospel message or trust in Christ Jesus for salvation. The disciples told them that they were still in their sins, and that when they die, they will suffer eternal separation in Hell.
Sounds like you’re pretty certain of your conclusion. I doubt there is anything I could say to convince you otherwise. Even so, you missed the important part of the verse: “as my Father sent me, I am sending you.”
Here is food for thought: a U.S. ship, on orders, fires a gun at a target. Did the captain fire the gun or did the United States?
Here is food for thought: a U.S. ship, on orders, fires a gun at a target. Did the captain fire the gun or did the United States?
The scriptures you share do not address what God requires of mankind after Jesus' sacrifice. Yes, Jesus did forgive sins and perform miracles as evidence He was the Son of God. However, AFTER Jesus' death, burial and resurrection man was commanded to obey specific instructions in order for their sins to be remitted. I don't know if you are aware of it, but Jesus said that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name in all nations and would BEGIN in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47) The need for believers to repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus FOR the remission of sin was what Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. This event was what Jesus had prophesied. And since Jesus said the message would be preached in all nations it continues today. The Lord Jesus said it and He is the final authority.
I agree with your assessment with the exception of one thing.
There is a word in Greek which has 2 different meanings. Anothen or ἄνωθεν in Greek letters. The 2 meanings are "Again" and "from above."
So, when Jesus first addresses Nicodemus in John. 3:3, the English translation should say "from above." The NET puts it this way, which is correct.
"Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above,[c] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3 NET
Here is the footnote for [c]:
"John 3:3 tn The word ἄνωθεν (anōthen) has a double meaning, either “again” (in which case it is synonymous with παλίν [palin]) or “from above” (BDAG 92 s.v. ἄνωθεν). This is a favorite technique of the author of the Fourth Gospel, and it is lost in almost all translations at this point. John uses the word 5 times, in 3:3, 7; 3:31; 19:11 and 23. In the latter 3 cases the context makes clear that it means “from above.” Here (3:3, 7) it could mean either, but the primary meaning intended by Jesus is “from above.” Nicodemus apparently understood it the other way, which explains his reply, “How can a man be born when he is old? He can’t enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” The author uses the technique of the “misunderstood question” often to bring out a particularly important point: Jesus says something which is misunderstood by the disciples or (as here) someone else, which then gives Jesus the opportunity to explain more fully and in more detail what he really meant. Or born again. The Greek word ἄνωθεν (anōthen) can mean both “again” and “from above,” giving rise to Nicodemus’ misunderstanding about a second physical birth. (Vs 4)"
Jesus is not asking for anyone to be born "again." Nicodemus took the wrong meaning for the word, and now we have an entire phrase based on Nicodemus' wrong understanding. We are not "born again" spiritually, but rather, born from above, or born spiritually. Before we are born from above we are spiritually dead.
"even though we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved! — 6 and he raised us up together with him and seated us together with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus," Eph 2:5-6
This passage confirms we were dead spiritually, God made us spiritually alive from above, where we are seated in the heavenly realms.
"And although you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you formerly lived" Eph 2:1-2a
We did not go from being spiritually alive to being born again as spiritually alive.
We went from dead on earth to born from above, alive!
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When we believe in Jesus.
This is how I see it. That obviously doesn’t make it correct, but I can use scripture to explain it.
“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
Matthew 26:28 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.26.28.KJV
In this passage “for the remission of sins” is eis aphesin hamartion in Greek. The most common translation of eis is into. So, Jesus blood was poured out into remission of sins. Remission of sins represents the new covenant.
“and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
Luke 24:47 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/luk.24.47.ESV
In this passage we see ”repentance for the remission of sins.” In Greek it is metanoian eis/kai aphesin hamartion. Several of the oldest manuscripts use eis. I see evidence in the Bible that eis is not wrong. This passage illustrates that:
“To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.””
Acts 10:43 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.10.43.ESV
To me it seems that Peter is remembering here what Jesus said to the apostles in Luke 24 when he opened their minds to understand the scriptures.
“Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
Luke 24:44-47 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/luk.24.45-47.ESV
Metanoia means “a change of mind.” If your mind changes from unbelieving to believing you have simply become a believer In Jesus. So, Acts 10:43 is simply Peter remembering what Jesus taught him in Luke 24. Luke 24 is where Jesus opened his mind to understand the prophets. This would be consistent with the use of eis in Luke 24:47. It also, doesn’t make kai wrong.
This is why I see Luke 24:47 as saying “a change of mind into remission of sins.” or change your mind and be immersed into remission of sins.
“And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 2:38 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.2.38.ESV
If you look at the greek words in Acts 2:38 and consider their meanings, you very simply end up with this:
”Change your mind and be immersed every one of you on (epi) the authority (onomati) of Jesus Christ into (eis) the remission of your sins….” When you change your mind and believe in Jesus you are immersed into remission of sins (the new covenant). Now remember Matthew 26:28, Jesus blood was poured out into (eis) remission of sins. So its not a water immersion, its an immersion into the new covenant, into remission of sins, into Jesus blood.
When you are immersed into remission of sins upon a change of mind, you are immersed into Jesus’ blood.
Also, think about other ways you see this in scripture such as immersed into his death or immersed into Christ. If you are immersed into his blood all of these are true as well. We have been buried with him or immersed into his death (blood).
Think about the similarity between this immersion and the immersion of the Israelites into Moses in 1 Corinthians 10:2.
This is how I see it. That obviously doesn’t make it correct, but I can use scripture to explain it.
“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
Matthew 26:28 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.26.28.KJV
In this passage “for the remission of sins” is eis aphesin hamartion in Greek. The most common translation of eis is into. So, Jesus blood was poured out into remission of sins. Remission of sins represents the new covenant.
“and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
Luke 24:47 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/luk.24.47.ESV
In this passage we see ”repentance for the remission of sins.” In Greek it is metanoian eis/kai aphesin hamartion. Several of the oldest manuscripts use eis. I see evidence in the Bible that eis is not wrong. This passage illustrates that:
“To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.””
Acts 10:43 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.10.43.ESV
To me it seems that Peter is remembering here what Jesus said to the apostles in Luke 24 when he opened their minds to understand the scriptures.
“Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”
Luke 24:44-47 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/luk.24.45-47.ESV
Metanoia means “a change of mind.” If your mind changes from unbelieving to believing you have simply become a believer In Jesus. So, Acts 10:43 is simply Peter remembering what Jesus taught him in Luke 24. Luke 24 is where Jesus opened his mind to understand the prophets. This would be consistent with the use of eis in Luke 24:47. It also, doesn’t make kai wrong.
This is why I see Luke 24:47 as saying “a change of mind into remission of sins.” or change your mind and be immersed into remission of sins.
“And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 2:38 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.2.38.ESV
If you look at the greek words in Acts 2:38 and consider their meanings, you very simply end up with this:
”Change your mind and be immersed every one of you on (epi) the authority (onomati) of Jesus Christ into (eis) the remission of your sins….” When you change your mind and believe in Jesus you are immersed into remission of sins (the new covenant). Now remember Matthew 26:28, Jesus blood was poured out into (eis) remission of sins. So its not a water immersion, its an immersion into the new covenant, into remission of sins, into Jesus blood.
When you are immersed into remission of sins upon a change of mind, you are immersed into Jesus’ blood.
Also, think about other ways you see this in scripture such as immersed into his death or immersed into Christ. If you are immersed into his blood all of these are true as well. We have been buried with him or immersed into his death (blood).
Think about the similarity between this immersion and the immersion of the Israelites into Moses in 1 Corinthians 10:2.