Saved by Water

[1ofthem]

Even if a man could go back into his mother's womb and be born again, would it make a difference? Probably not since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

So what did Jesus mean, then, by "you must be born of water and Spirit?"

In John 4:13-14, Jesus said:

13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

The water that Jesus was referencing in relation to being born of "water and Spirit" was not literal water in my opinion. Jesus is referring to spiritual water that sustains the born again spirit of those who have faith in Jesus.

This born again process of "water and Spirit" is not something the individual will have control over. It will be solely by the will of God:

John 1:12-13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:8
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This is not about water baptism.

I never thought of it this way before, but I believe you are right. When it says a man must be born of water and the Spirit...It is talking about the spiritual water or the water of life.

Revelation 22:17 17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Justified]

Water baptism in Jesus' name is just one part of God's mandate to the NT believer. The word instructs the believer to repent and be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. And also requires a believer to be indwelt with the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

God has always commanded obedience. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Consider Noah and his family, 8 people out of the entire earth's population, were the only ones saved. Why? They obeyed God's instructions while others surely mocked and ridiculed them for believing God's message that did not make sense to them.

Sad as it is, the majority of people will be condemned to hell. The word says that broad is the way of destruction while straight is gate and narrow is the way that leads unto life and few will find it. (Matt. 7:13-14) Interesting that this is stated just before Jesus says only those who do the Father's will will enter heaven and tells people He never knew them. Matt 7:21-23

Repentance and faith are God's requirements for salvation (cf. Mar_1:15; Act_3:16; Act_3:19; Act_20:21). Jesus said "Unless you repent, you will all perish" (cf Luk_13:3; Luk_13:5). Repentance is God's will for fallen man (cf. 2Pe_3:9, Eze_18:23; Eze_18:30; Eze_18:32). The mystery of the sovereignty of God and human free will can be clearly demonstrated by repentance as a requirement for salvation.

When you study the book of Acts you will find four groups of believers shown.

H. P. Barker has so ably pointed out in The Vicar of Christ, there are four communities of believers in the Book of Acts, and the order of events in connection with the reception of the Holy Spirit is different in each case.

Here in Act_2:37-41 we read about Jews. For them, the order was:

1. Faith.

2. Repentance.

3. Water baptism.

4. Reception of the Holy Spirit.

The conversion of Samaritans is recorded in Act_8:14-17. There we read that the following events occurred:

1. They believed.

2. They were baptized in water.

3. The apostles prayed for them.

4. The apostles laid their hands on them.

5. They received the Holy Spirit.

In Act_10:44-48 the conversion of Gentiles is in view. Notice the order here:

1. Faith.

2. Reception of the Holy Spirit.

3. Water baptism.

A final community of believers is made up of disciples of John the Baptist, Act_19:1-7

1. They believed.

2. They had been baptized by John the Baptist

3. They were baptized in the name of Jesus

4. The Apostle Paul laid his hands on them.

5. They received the Holy Spirit.

Does this mean there were four ways of salvation in the Book of Acts? Of course not. Salvation was, is, and always will be on the basis of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

This reception of the spirit might be experienced before baptism (Act_10:44), after baptism (Act_2:38), or after baptism plus the laying on of apostolic hands (Act_8:16; Act_19:54) [F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions p. 167]

Many people want clear statements of doctrine which can be affirmed, but usually they react to a "proof-text" method of interpretation and isolate only those texts that fit their preconceived understanding, and biases.

 

[Aaron56]

Your not answering the question are you. Lets try once again, Who forgives sin, man or God? It should not be that hard a question for you to answer.

I’m trying to help you. Your logic is flawed because you do not understand delegated authority. The body of Christ has one head, Christ, and many parts, the saints. However, the parts function at the behest of the head by the Spirit. A man may declare another’s sins are forgiven when he discerns that by the Spirit. This is an elementary principle.

 

[Kidron]

Water baptism in Jesus' name is just one part of God's mandate to the NT believer.

So is "present your body a living Sacrifice'

So is "give to the poor"

So is "forsake not the assembling of yourselves togehter"

So is..>>"take this cup, and bread and do this in remembrance of me".

So, there are quite a few "mandates", but NONE OF THEM WILL GET YOU INTO HEAVEN, including the city water supply.

Its best that you dont teach "water cult" theology, as this is Cross denying, because it tries to add to the finished work of Jesus on the Cross and that is heresy. as found here. Galatians 1:8

 

[Wansvic]

Repentance and faith are God's requirements for salvation (cf. Mar_1:15; Act_3:16; Act_3:19; Act_20:21). Jesus said "Unless you repent, you will all perish" (cf Luk_13:3; Luk_13:5). Repentance is God's will for fallen man (cf. 2Pe_3:9, Eze_18:23; Eze_18:30; Eze_18:32). The mystery of the sovereignty of God and human free will can be clearly demonstrated by repentance as a requirement for salvation.

When you study the book of Acts you will find four groups of believers shown.

H. P. Barker has so ably pointed out in The Vicar of Christ, there are four communities of believers in the Book of Acts, and the order of events in connection with the reception of the Holy Spirit is different in each case.

Here in Act_2:37-41 we read about Jews. For them, the order was:

1. Faith.

2. Repentance.

3. Water baptism.

4. Reception of the Holy Spirit.

The conversion of Samaritans is recorded in Act_8:14-17. There we read that the following events occurred:

1. They believed.

2. They were baptized in water.

3. The apostles prayed for them.

4. The apostles laid their hands on them.

5. They received the Holy Spirit.

In Act_10:44-48 the conversion of Gentiles is in view. Notice the order here:

1. Faith.

2. Reception of the Holy Spirit.

3. Water baptism.

A final community of believers is made up of disciples of John the Baptist, Act_19:1-7

1. They believed.

2. They had been baptized by John the Baptist

3. They were baptized in the name of Jesus

4. The Apostle Paul laid his hands on them.

5. They received the Holy Spirit.
Does this mean there were four ways of salvation in the Book of Acts? Of course not. Salvation was, is, and always will be on the basis of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

This reception of the spirit might be experienced before baptism (Act_10:44), after baptism (Act_2:38), or after baptism plus the laying on of apostolic hands (Act_8:16; Act_19:54) [F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions p. 167]

Many people want clear statements of doctrine which can be affirmed, but usually they react to a "proof-text" method of interpretation and isolate only those texts that fit their preconceived understanding, and biases.

What is evidenced in each of the cases you mention is they all show compliance to what Peter first shared on the day the NT church was birthed. If there had been even one instance where this was not true I could accept that not everyone is required to follow the God-given mandate. But that is not the case. In addition, consider that all of humanity are descendants of one of those groups. This truth convinces me that even unto today we are to follow the steps required to become part of the body of Christ.

You mention that Jesus says all must repent and this is true. And as you undoubtedly know, many scriptures reference one topic or another but not to the exclusion of other related aspects; in this case water baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost. The scripture references you supplied in your initial statement fall under this category as well.

 

[Wansvic]

Even if a man could go back into his mother's womb and be born again, would it make a difference? Probably not since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

So what did Jesus mean, then, by "you must be born of water and Spirit?"

In John 4:13-14, Jesus said:

13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

The water that Jesus was referencing in relation to being born of "water and Spirit" was not literal water in my opinion. Jesus is referring to spiritual water that sustains the born again spirit of those who have faith in Jesus.

This born again process of "water and Spirit" is not something the individual will have control over. It will be solely by the will of God:

John 1:12-13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:8
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

This is not about water baptism.

Jesus says that a person must be born of both water and Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God. The water Jesus references in John 4:13-14 is the Holy Spirit. (See John 7:38-39 below) This shows that the water spoken of in John 3:5 is not the Holy Spirit.

John 7:38-39
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[Wansvic]

So is "present your body a living Sacrifice'

So is "give to the poor"

So is "forsake not the assembling of yourselves togehter"

So is..>>"take this cup, and bread and do this in remembrance of me".

So, there are quite a few "mandates", but NONE OF THEM WILL GET YOU INTO HEAVEN, including the city water supply.

Its best that you dont teach "water cult" theology, as this is Cross denying, because it tries to add to the finished work of Jesus on the Cross and that is heresy. as found here. Galatians 1:8

The behaviors you note are expected of those after they are born again.
Belief, repentance, water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost are stated requirements in order to be born again.

I'm just sharing what I see in the word. I know you disagree with me and that's ok. I don't think its necessary to discuss it any further. May God Bless.

 

[Blade]

Water baptism in Jesus' name is just one part of God's mandate to the NT believer. The word instructs the believer to repent and be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. And also requires a believer to be indwelt with the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

God has always commanded obedience. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. Consider Noah and his family, 8 people out of the entire earth's population, were the only ones saved. Why? They obeyed God's instructions while others surely mocked and ridiculed them for believing God's message that did not make sense to them.

Sad as it is, the majority of people will be condemned to hell. The word says that broad is the way of destruction while straight is gate and narrow is the way that leads unto life and few will find it. (Matt. 7:13-14) Interesting that this is stated just before Jesus says only those who do the Father's will will enter heaven and tells people He never knew them. Matt 7:21-23

I rarely I mean rarely find a debate where one says "thanks. I never saw that". Its mostly I am right heres why. The says the same thing.. and at the end.. thank you this great. We need to do it again. Yet here its no debate. Some have went deep to explain yet..never gets talked about other then 1-4 lines of texted. I think they deserve more.. you started this thread. Maybe listen.. try to see it through others eyes.. sorry but you can be wrong here.

Search on how Paul talks about Johns baptism. Johns baptism was a baptism unto repentance. seems some might stop there and SEE! That was to lead up to the one coming after John. They were then baptisted in the name of the lord Jesus Christ and then spoke in tongues. No water... Before Paul talked to them it was after Christ died and rose AMEN AMEN GLORY TO JESUS! Some went into great detail about this and more. "discuss".

What was posted that is true is "I'm just sharing what I see in the word. " Yet you share as if what you see is the only truth. Can I be wrong.. hello yes. Willing to read and try to see it through the persons eyes. Father change me first. When some cherry pick a verse here and there.. you always read above and below. Oh.. Gods will.. obey God. Believing in Jesus Christ is Gods will is obeying God.

Sheep and Goats.. Christ comes with His saints (Jude) He gathers the nations spilts them. One side tells Him all the things they did in His name. Name... clue there. Then Jesus says "I never knew you". I know we always tend to see truth Gods word through the eyes of this flesh and sinful world but when Christ says "I never knew you". They were never saved. This is not about what you did or didn't do for Jesus. Those nations He gathers just came out of the great tribulation. If your pre trib you won't there. If your mid trib you wont be there if your post trib ouch. I can't speak of anyone else but.. the angels in heaven rejoiced when He found me and I repented. I know Christ knows me.. I know the Father and the sweet holy Spirit knows me. I know I am in the Fathers hand and I know I am written in the lambs book of which no one has ever been blotted out of. They were never saved. He can not lie. We might know someone and then say I never knew you. Is that how GOD does things? He copies us?

Call on the name of the lord you shall be delivered/saved Joel/Romans. He saves.. not us. He is very real.. GOD JESUS HOLY SPIRIT are very real. We need Him He does not us for any of this. Maybe think about those who are lost. Those are HIS creation not ours. He came died for them no us. He loves them. Well forgive me Father. Hell gets talked about.. many condemned. He came not to condemn but to save. The now sweet holy Spirit convicts the world of sin. That sin is believing in Jesus. He already died for the sin of the world. He can not die again. What I believe.. oh and I can be wrong but.. it is hard to talk to a wall

 

[Justified]

What is evidenced in each of the cases you mention is they all show compliance to what Peter first shared on the day the NT church was birthed. If there had been even one instance where this was not true I could accept that not everyone is required to follow the God-given mandate. But that is not the case. In addition, consider that all of humanity are descendants of one of those groups. This truth convinces me that even unto today we are to follow the steps required to become part of the body of Christ.

You mention that Jesus says all must repent and this is true. And as you undoubtedly know, many scriptures reference one topic or another but not to the exclusion of other related aspects; in this case water baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost. The scripture references you supplied in your initial statement fall under this category as well.

What you are missing is that in each case is that they all believed first. What is the condition of having your sins forgiven it's FAITH. (Joh 3:16-18)

When you insist on baptism as a requirement then you are adding a work to salvation. You are making man the decided in their salvation. If they do not or can not be baptized then according to you they are not saved. Secondly you are making the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus of less valve. When you add baptism once again you make man the final authority.

Look at all of scripture not just your pet verses. I realize that you think what you believe is correct but the reality is that you are placing more importance on baptism than you are on Christ Jesus.

 

[Wansvic]

I rarely I mean rarely find a debate where one says "thanks. I never saw that". Its mostly I am right heres why. The says the same thing.. and at the end.. thank you this great. We need to do it again. Yet here its no debate. Some have went deep to explain yet..never gets talked about other then 1-4 lines of texted. I think they deserve more.. you started this thread. Maybe listen.. try to see it through others eyes.. sorry but you can be wrong here.

Search on how Paul talks about Johns baptism. Johns baptism was a baptism unto repentance. seems some might stop there and SEE! That was to lead up to the one coming after John. They were then baptisted in the name of the lord Jesus Christ and then spoke in tongues. No water...

So what you see in the word is that baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is Spirit baptism? Not water baptism?

 

[Wansvic]

What you are missing is that in each case is that they all believed first. What is the condition of having your sins forgiven it's FAITH. (Joh 3:16-18)

When you insist on baptism as a requirement then you are adding a work to salvation. You are making man the decided in their salvation. If they do not or can not be baptized then according to you they are not saved. Secondly you are making the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus of less valve. When you add baptism once again you make man the final authority.

Look at all of scripture not just your pet verses. I realize that you think what you believe is correct but the reality is that you are placing more importance on baptism than you are on Christ Jesus.

Of course one has to believe in Jesus first. The entire salvation message hinges on that. Jesus is the author of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him. (Heb. 5:9) Notice what Luke said in Acts 1:1-2, Jesus did and taught things while He was here on earth and later gave commandments to His apostles through the Holy Ghost. One of those commands was to water baptize people in His name for the remission of sin, among other things. So it was He, not I who added water baptism as a requirement for one's salvation. Refusing to accept what Jesus, Peter, Philip, Ananias, Paul and others commanded is a choice all must make. (Mark 16:15-16, John 3:5, Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

 

[Wansvic]

I rarely I mean rarely find a debate where one says "thanks. I never saw that". Its mostly I am right heres why. The says the same thing.. and at the end.. thank you this great. We need to do it again. Yet here its no debate. Some have went deep to explain yet..never gets talked about other then 1-4 lines of texted. I think they deserve more.. you started this thread. Maybe listen.. try to see it through others eyes.. sorry but you can be wrong here.

Search on how Paul talks about Johns baptism. Johns baptism was a baptism unto repentance. seems some might stop there and SEE! That was to lead up to the one coming after John. They were then baptisted in the name of the lord Jesus Christ and then spoke in tongues. No water... Before Paul talked to them it was after Christ died and rose AMEN AMEN GLORY TO JESUS! Some went into great detail about this and more. "discuss".

What was posted that is true is "I'm just sharing what I see in the word. " Yet you share as if what you see is the only truth. Can I be wrong.. hello yes. Willing to read and try to see it through the persons eyes. Father change me first. When some cherry pick a verse here and there.. you always read above and below. Oh.. Gods will.. obey God. Believing in Jesus Christ is Gods will is obeying God.

Debating is discussion about a specific topic where opposing parties present arguments for their position. What you fail to realize is the scriptures people present to dispute what I’ve shared do not speak to the direct point being made. Example: the word says specifically that remission of sins takes place at water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 2:38) Ananias tells Paul to get baptized and wash away thy sins calling upon the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16)

The responses I get are, one need only believe that Jesus is the Son of God to have sins washed away, believing in Jesus’ sacrifice does this, etc. These are prerequisites that actually prompt obedience to God’s command. However, the word specifically states that one’s personal sins are actually remitted in obedience to God’s command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. That’s the bottom line. So your suggestion that what I have shared from the word is not true is one I will not accept.

It's not my job to make anyone believe anything. I've just pointed out scriptures relevant to the topic. God is the one who gives the increase.

 

[Wansvic]

Search on how Paul talks about Johns baptism. Johns baptism was a baptism unto repentance. seems some might stop there and SEE! That was to lead up to the one coming after John. They were then baptisted in the name of the lord Jesus Christ and then spoke in tongues. No water...

John introduced God's mandate of water baptism for repentance. The only difference between John’s baptism and the NT water baptism is the requirement to use the name of the Lord Jesus in connection with His death, burial, and resurrection. This statement is proven in scripture: (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) You can either Accept or reject scripture that's entirely up to you.

 

[Wansvic]

Call on the name of the lord you shall be delivered/saved Joel/Romans.

When does calling on the name of the Lord take place?

 

[Wansvic]

What you are missing is that in each case is that they all believed first. What is the condition of having your sins forgiven it's FAITH. (Joh 3:16-18)

When you insist on baptism as a requirement then you are adding a work to salvation. You are making man the decided in their salvation. If they do not or can not be baptized then according to you they are not saved. Secondly you are making the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus of less valve. When you add baptism once again you make man the final authority.

Look at all of scripture not just your pet verses. I realize that you think what you believe is correct but the reality is that you are placing more importance on baptism than you are on Christ Jesus.

Some relevant points from the entire third chapter of John. The chapter's beginning includes Jesus saying unless a man is reborn he cannot SEE the kingdom. He goes on to say unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot ENTER the kingdom of God. These verses indicate two things distinct from one another must occur. In John 3:3 when reborn a person can SEE (recognize/perceive) the kingdom. In John 3:5 only after being born of water and Spirit can a person ENTER into the kingdom. The reader is also told that whosoever believes in the Son of God should not perish but have everlasting life. And that Jesus was sent into the world that through Him people might be saved. (verse 17) The chapter continues in verse 22 with the statement that after these things, Jesus and His disciples came baptizing. While John was baptizing in Aenon. Interesting that Aenon means fountain of the eye. This would seem to be consistent with the water portion of the rebirth experience being when a person's eyes of perception are open. Any thoughts?

 

[Kidron]

Belief, repentance, water baptism stated requirements in order to be born again.

Water CULTS, such as the Jehovah's Witness denomination or the "cult of Mary" which is the Catholic Church both teach the HERESY that "water" saves you and is required to be born again.
So, i invite you to ask the Dying Thief on the Cross, why he is in heaven, as he was not water baptized.
So, according to your cult, that's not possible......Yet, there He is....

Thing is, you'll have to be born again to be able to meet him and ask him.

 

[Justified]

Some relevant points from the entire third chapter of John. The chapter's beginning includes Jesus saying unless a man is reborn he cannot SEE the kingdom. He goes on to say unless a man is born of water and Spirit he cannot ENTER the kingdom of God. These verses indicate two things distinct from one another must occur. In John 3:3 when reborn a person can SEE (recognize/perceive) the kingdom. In John 3:5 only after being born of water and Spirit can a person ENTER into the kingdom. The reader is also told that whosoever believes in the Son of God should not perish but have everlasting life. And that Jesus was sent into the world that through Him people might be saved. (verse 17) The chapter continues in verse 22 with the statement that after these things, Jesus and His disciples came baptizing. While John was baptizing in Aenon. Interesting that Aenon means fountain of the eye. This would seem to be consistent with the water portion of the rebirth experience being when a person's eyes of perception are open. Any thoughts?

As I said before you have placed your salvation on a work that you do. You do not trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus.
So when you stand before God and He asks you why He should let you into His heaven are you going to say "because I was baptized or because I trusted in the finished work on the cross?" Hint one is your works the other is His.

 

[JBTN]

Example: the word says specifically that remission of sins takes place at water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 2:38)

Please be careful making assertions like this. The word water isn’t in any version of Acts 2:38 that I have ever seen.

“Kefa answered them, “Turn from sin, return to God, and each of you be immersed on the authority of Yeshua the Messiah into forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh!”
‭‭Acts of Emissaries of Yeshua (Act)‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭CJB‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/1275/act.2.38.CJB

 

[JBTN]

Jesus says that a person must be born of both water and Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God. The water Jesus references in John 4:13-14 is the Holy Spirit. (See John 7:38-39 below) This shows that the water spoken of in John 3:5 is not the Holy Spirit.

Actually it doesn’t. In Greek these are the words:

ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος
water and wind

So, you could see this as two metaphors for the Spirit.

 

[Wansvic]

Water CULTS, such as the Jehovah's Witness denomination or the "cult of Mary" which is the Catholic Church both teach the HERESY that "water" saves you and is required to be born again.
So, i invite you to ask the Dying Thief on the Cross, why he is in heaven, as he was not water baptized.
So, according to your cult, that's not possible......Yet, there He is....

Thing is, you'll have to be born again to be able to meet him and ask him.

Old and New Testament requirements were different.