SAVED BY WORKS

[kennethcadwell]

And yet, you cannot yourself say you obey all of Christ's commands in the Gospels.

I have in the past and I say again here yes I do follow and keep His teachings.
Does this mean I may not screw up from time to time ? No it does not, but from there do I obey the command to repent/confess of it when I feel the Godly sorrow, or do I continue to give into it. I repent of it because I am Spirit guided by Him to feel that conviction (chastising) that leads to repentance. Do I believe born again believers will continue to sin every single day ? No I do not as the bible shows from Paul that a born again believer walking in the Spirit will learn to walk in self control. As for the 10 commandments I have not broke any of them for awhile now, so to say it is impossible to keep them is not a true teaching.

 

[michael56]

I have in the past and I say again here yes I do follow and keep His teachings.
Does this mean I may not screw up from time to time ? No it does not, but from there do I obey the command to repent/confess of it when I feel the Godly sorrow, or do I continue to give into it. I repent of it because I am Spirit guided by Him to feel that conviction (chastising) that leads to repentance. Do I believe born again believers will continue to sin every single day ? No I do not as the bible shows from Paul that a born again believer walking in the Spirit will learn to walk in self control. As for the 10 commandments I have not broke any of them for awhile now, so to say it is impossible to keep them is not a true teaching.

I am glad you never have even a fleeting impure thought or ever, even fleetingly desire anything that belongs to another.
You know of course the literal words of the Ten Commandments are not the yardstick, as Christ made clear in the beatitudes.

I must say, I have never come across any Christian who obeys all of Christ's commands in the Gospels, nor can I recall anyone on the internet either professing to do so, apart from you Kenneth. So either you live a holier life than anyone I have met in 35 years of going to church, or anyone I have come into contact with on the internet, or you are fibbing a wee bit. That is down to you and your conscience

 

[kennethcadwell]

Dead works would be anything that is not done in a spirit of love. That is to say not from loving motives. Love is unselfish and self sacrificing. Much of the time we do things to gratify ourselves often at a cost to others. Jesus said that to love your neighbor as yourself is one of the most important commandments. In fact when we do this we are pleasing to Him because he loves people deeply, and it also helps people see what his character is like. We however by our own fault are corrupt and selfish, and so we cannot achieve this without first receiving Gods Saviour Jesus. That is to say we must ask Him to forgive us and to come into our lives as our friend to help us not to sin. Jesus said that the person who is forgiven the most will love him the most.
You may have heard that salvation is by faith alone.This means that a person has seen in Jesus (Who is God) the source of Gods forgiveness and so that person goes to Jesus to save him from himself. No matter how much effort I make, I cannot either make up for the badness of my sin, or change myself to be someone who is pleasing God. Jesus must do this for me.If I were trying to do all this for myself, no matter how many good deeds were involved, it would be dead works.Works done out of motives such as pride,lust and even guilt are dead works.

This is absolutely true and is the way I preach on all the time.
The point I try to get across to people is because it is the Lord Jesus Christ doing the work in and through us by His Holy Spirit that would show in our outer actions giving proof to a true born again faith in Him. If there is not change in a persons life and they continue to walk how they previously walked, then we would not know unbelievers from believers by the fruits they produce. Fruits are evident in outer deeds, actions, works, and yes even speech.
If one is born again Spirit driven then how can they continue to sin everyday and not keep His commandments, this would be contradictory to scripture if one does continue to sin everyday, or this would also support scripture. But if it supports scripture it is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that is unforgivable, because one who states faith in Christ but continues everyday in sin is denying His power to work in and through a person changing their life.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I am glad you never have even a fleeting impure thought or ever, even fleetingly desire anything that belongs to another.
You know of course the literal words of the Ten Commandments are not the yardstick, as Christ made clear in the beatitudes.

I must say, I have never come across any Christian who obeys all of Christ's commands in the Gospels, nor can I recall anyone on the internet either professing to do so, apart from you Kenneth. So either you live a holier life than anyone I have met in 35 years of going to church, or anyone I have come into contact with on the internet, or you are fibbing a wee bit. That is down to you and your conscience

Well then you have not talked to many people then because I have seen in my time on this site at least 6 people who have claimed they don't sin at all. This goes completely further then what I teach as I said I do believe people can and will mess up from time to time, but does this mean a person can not learn through the Spirit to keep from sinning constantly? No it doesn't, and I did not say I never sin as what I said is that I do not sin everyday.
The 10 commandments are a baseline of if you walk in love you will not do anything it says to another person.
The other thing that people have done is miss teach that thoughts are sins, and they use what the Lord said about adultery for this understanding. Problem with that is that the Lord is talking about feelings and not thought, as lusting in the heart is a feeling. James says when your desires become full grown they give birth to sin, meaning if you stop it while it is still only a thought then you have not sinned. But if you don't stop it and let the feeling become full grown to where you want it to become action or make it action, then it becomes sin and that sin if it controls you again will lead to death and not eternal life.

And no I am contempt with what I have, and I have very little, because I have already hit rock bottom in my life and God has shown me to be contempt with what I have. Unless you have been to a point of having nothing in your life like I was at one point, then you would not realize how one can become so humble to be happy just to be breathing.
Living one more day to me is a blessing that is not to be squandered...............

 

[michael56]

I have in the past and I say again here yes I do follow and keep His teachings.
Does this mean I may not screw up from time to time ? No it does not, but from there do I obey the command to repent/confess of it when I feel the Godly sorrow, or do I continue to give into it. I repent of it because I am Spirit guided by Him to feel that conviction (chastising) that leads to repentance. Do I believe born again believers will continue to sin every single day ? No I do not as the bible shows from Paul that a born again believer walking in the Spirit will learn to walk in self control. As for the 10 commandments I have not broke any of them for awhile now, so to say it is impossible to keep them is not a true teaching.

Do you know why roughly 85% of people who make a commitment to Christ walk away from the faith, why that figure is so high? It is because a lot of people quote the literal letter without truly understanding the heart of the message. That was the Pharisees problem, and they crushed the people with the literal letter.
For what underlines everything, is the love, mercy and compassion of God. If you can only quote the literal letter, you neglect that.
People make a commitment to Christ, and in honest estimation of themselves, know they cannot, or do not live up to what is preached of the literal letter. They believe those preaching to them, must live up to what they insist of others. So many walk away crushed, never having heard the true message only in effect, they must perform nigh on perfect(however you word it) or God will cast them into hell. It is truly tragic, and for those who make demands of others they cannot live up to themselves, a time is coming when they will have to answer for making glib statements off the top of their head that they cannot live up to in their own lives.
My only concern in this, is for those poor people who walk away crushed, never having heard the true message of grace, just a message they believe the people making it live up to in their own lives. I repeat, it is tragic

 

[kennethcadwell]

Do you know why roughly 85% of people who make a commitment to Christ walk away from the faith, why that figure is so high? It is because a lot of people quote the literal letter without truly understanding the heart of the message. That was the Pharisees problem, and they crushed the people with the literal letter.
For what underlines everything, is the love, mercy and compassion of God. If you can only quote the literal letter, you neglect that.
People make a commitment to Christ, and in honest estimation of themselves, know they cannot, or do not live up to what is preached of the literal letter. They believe those preaching to them, must live up to what they insist of others. So many walk away crushed, never having heard the true message only in effect, they must perform nigh on perfect(however you word it) or God will cast them into hell. It is truly tragic, and for those who make demands of others they cannot live up to themselves, a time is coming when they will have to answer for making glib statements off the top of their head that they cannot live up to in their own lives.
My only concern in this, is for those poor people who walk away crushed, never having heard the true message of grace, just a message they believe the people making it live up to in their own lives. I repeat, it is tragic

Once again that was not the Pharisees issue.

The Pharisees taught the law, and our Lord Jesus told the crowd listening to obey what they said.
But then the Pharisees perverted, twisted, and added to with out helping others to walk in them. They also used it for self gratification and financial gain, which is why the Lord said but do not do what they do. People want to just narrow it down to they taught the law but did not follow it, but that was only part of the issue and Jesus told the people to continue to obey the laws.

If 85% of people are falling away from the church like you say, it is not because the literal letter is being preached in the gospel books and epistles of Paul. It is a failure of that church not truly showing love for their congregation by not helping those people walk in the faith, and help them through rough times. The failure is on the church, and not on teaching the literal words from the NT. For without following many of those literal words one is not truly saved or born again.

They are not lead in love and the true teaching of God's love and how the Holy Spirit will get them through their issues, and then not shown love by the others. To be a preacher means more then just speak His word.....
I know many of churches that teach the literal letter of the NT, but they also do rightly and teach God's love and grace along with it. Their congregations keep growing instead of getting smaller.

 

[michael56]

Once again that was not the Pharisees issue.

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: [SUP]2 [/SUP]“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. [SUP]3 [/SUP]So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. [SUP]4 [/SUP]They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Matt23:1-4

Yes it was.

The Pharisees taught the law, and our Lord Jesus told the crowd listening to obey what they said.
But then the Pharisees perverted, twisted, and added to with out helping others to walk in them. They also used it for self gratification and financial gain, which is why the Lord said but do not do what they do. People want to just narrow it down to they taught the law but did not follow it, but that was only part of the issue and Jesus told the people to continue to obey the laws.

If 85% of people are falling away from the church like you say, it is not because the literal letter is being preached in the gospel books and epistles of Paul. It is a failure of that church not truly showing love for their congregation by not helping those people walk in the faith, and help them through rough times. The failure is on the church, and not on teaching the literal words from the NT. For without following many of those literal words one is not truly saved or born again.

It is a failure of churches to preach fully and forthrightly the message of grace. They leave the power of sin firmly in place in the Christians life. It is not showing love to insist of others what you fail to attain to in your own life. To be born again of the Spirit you must repent, believe the Son of God died for your sin and ask him into your life as Lord and Saviour. Then it is preaching how sin is to be overcome in the life of a believer.

They are not lead in love and the true teaching of God's love and how the Holy Spirit will get them through their issues, and then not shown love by the others. To be a preacher means more then just speak His word.....
I know many of churches that teach the literal letter of the NT, but they also do rightly and teach God's love and grace along with it. Their congregations keep growing instead of getting smaller.

Very few ministers forthrightly preach the message Paul wrote of in his letters. Hence, in so many cases there is an imbalance of those who attend such churches, based on the section of society they come from and their affluence. A diluted message brings diluted results

 

[MarcR]

Ephesians 2:8-10 shows that God takes personal credit for everything involved in the Salvation process, from the faith that enables you to believe to the works that the Holy Spirit produces in the believer; God claims that it is ALL His work.

It seems to me that a doctrine of Salvation by works is an attempt to rob God of Glory due to Him for what He has done.

 

[dcontroversal]

Ephesians 2:8-10 shows that God takes personal credit for everything involved in the Salvation process, from the faith that enables you to believe to the works that the Holy Spirit produces in the believer; God claims that it is ALL His work.

It seems to me that a doctrine of Salvation by works is an attempt to rob God of Glory due to Him for what He has done.

....lest any man should boast.....! It has always been about God/Jesus......all things were created for his glory......!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Very few ministers forthrightly preach the message Paul wrote of in his letters. Hence, in so many cases there is an imbalance of those who attend such churches, based on the section of society they come from and their affluence. A diluted message brings diluted results

I understand that but like I have said I know of many churches who teach the literal letter of the NT along with God's grace and love. Those churches I have seen their congregations grow in the past 10 years.
Plus the past couple of years have leveled off, but since 911 there has been a major influx of people coming to the faith. There were more people who came to the faith the following 5 years after 911 then in the previous 20 years before that event.


Zephaniah 1:16
A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Ephesians 2:8-10 shows that God takes personal credit for everything involved in the Salvation process, from the faith that enables you to believe to the works that the Holy Spirit produces in the believer; God claims that it is ALL His work.

It seems to me that a doctrine of Salvation by works is an attempt to rob God of Glory due to Him for what He has done.

Unless the works that one defends and is zealous on preaching on is those that come from the Holy Spirit, that the bible states and shows is the sign of a true faith in a believer. So you can not have one without the other, or you have a dead faith because the Holy Spirit will always work in and through a believer.

We will know them that are His by their fruits produced............................

 

[michael56]

I understand that but like I have said I know of many churches who teach the literal letter of the NT along with God's grace and love. Those churches I have seen their congregations grow in the past 10 years.
Plus the past couple of years have leveled off, but since 911 there has been a major influx of people coming to the faith. There were more people who came to the faith the following 5 years after 911 then in the previous 20 years before that event.





Zephaniah 1:16
A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

I was raised in a ''born again'' church. That church grew also, but I never heard the message of grace Paul wrote of forthrightly preached from the pulpit. It is a strange thing to me, I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today, the bible is the final authority for the Christian, and yet, although I would naturally be at home in an ''Evangelical church'' I have found many of them are very dangerous places to be. For to preach ceaselessly a person must live their life to a very high degree, but not preach the grace of the bible alongside it has had terrible consequences on many. And yet, there are people who would not term themselves ''Evangelical who have a better understanding of the message of grace(the justification, sanctification of the believer) than most Evangelical churches.

I have my own opinion as to why this happens. Many accept the fullness of the Holy Spirit into their lives, but then, in their eagerness(zealousness) to live according to the conviction placed on them, they try and make themselves good enough for God-in reality. Only two results are possible. Either you give up crushed, or you become somewhat hard nosed, and put on an act before others you know you cannot live up to beneath the skin.

Your beliefs are very similar to the church of my youth. The gist is the same, you just word it a bit differently.

Anyway, now I go to a church that does not call itself ''Charasmatic'' but it has the core of the teaching. It doesn't crush others.

You see, a message of. ''The key to living an ever holier life is knowing Jesus died for all your sins, past, present and future'' does not rest easy with many, and it seems to rest least easy with the churches I spent so many years in, in my youth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes I did read that as I read the whole book multiple times, and it still does not go against what I said that James is talking to believers on how they can not act in the faith. He opens it straight up and repeats himself in his epistle they are in the faith and that their faith will be tested.
The speaking to them about having a dead faith goes exactly with what and how a believer must act, he says if your faith does not have works then it is a dead faith. Meaning the fruits of the Spirit will show through in one's outer actions/deeds/works. No sign of the fruits of the Spirit, no salvation. A person can not just profess to believe in the Lord if it is an empty profession with no sign of true love for Him that follows.

If we are saved by grace through faith, and you have no faith, your not saved period.

Sorry. but you are in extreme error. which has you falling for a false gospel of works. which will be rejected by God.

Repent ken, I pray for you to repent.

They would not stay if they have been ousted from the church, which is what we are told to do about false teachers and those who continue to live a sinful lifestyle and do not want to give it up (1 Corinthians 5).

This is why we are told to test all spirits, as even those who are preaching from the pulpit in the churches we go to may not be lead by spirits of God. If there message does not line up with scripture then the spirit is not of God, and nowhere in the bible does it say to confirm the gospel to fit our lives, we are to confirm our lives to fit His gospel.

John says they went out from us.

That is not being thrown out by us, The people were sad because they left (as we all should)

Again you have context all screwed up, in order to keep your faulty belief

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God does have all the glory and gets all the credit for what He has done in my life, which is why I will defend His word and continue to defend His word all through out the bible.

People who were once in the faith of Christ can fall away by turning their back on Him.
Lord Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and John all say this happens, and Paul even states the Holy Spirit saying this. I think I will believe all their testimonies over those who say people can't fall away. As they are the Lord and those lead by His Spirit who all agree with this, so by calling me a false teacher would be calling them false teachers because I just repeat what they said.

How can you say God gets all the glory, when all you do is speak of what you do and what everyone else does not do.

How does God get glory, when you as you professed, have earned your own salvation?

Thats not giving glory to God. that taking glory for yourself. Or as paul calls it, Boasting

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well then you have not talked to many people then because I have seen in my time on this site at least 6 people who have claimed they don't sin at all. This goes completely further then what I teach as I said I do believe people can and will mess up from time to time, but does this mean a person can not learn through the Spirit to keep from sinning constantly? No it doesn't, and I did not say I never sin as what I said is that I do not sin everyday.
The 10 commandments are a baseline of if you walk in love you will not do anything it says to another person.
The other thing that people have done is miss teach that thoughts are sins, and they use what the Lord said about adultery for this understanding. Problem with that is that the Lord is talking about feelings and not thought, as lusting in the heart is a feeling. James says when your desires become full grown they give birth to sin, meaning if you stop it while it is still only a thought then you have not sinned. But if you don't stop it and let the feeling become full grown to where you want it to become action or make it action, then it becomes sin and that sin if it controls you again will lead to death and not eternal life.

And no I am contempt with what I have, and I have very little, because I have already hit rock bottom in my life and God has shown me to be contempt with what I have. Unless you have been to a point of having nothing in your life like I was at one point, then you would not realize how one can become so humble to be happy just to be breathing.
Living one more day to me is a blessing that is not to be squandered...............

so in other words.

Thank God your not like the sinner, You only "mess up" from time to time.

No boasting or taking credit here

 

[kennethcadwell]

I was raised in a ''born again'' church. That church grew also, but I never heard the message of grace Paul wrote of forthrightly preached from the pulpit. It is a strange thing to me, I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today, the bible is the final authority for the Christian, and yet, although I would naturally be at home in an ''Evangelical church'' I have found many of them are very dangerous places to be. For to preach ceaselessly a person must live their life to a very high degree, but not preach the grace of the bible alongside it has had terrible consequences on many. And yet, there are people who would not term themselves ''Evangelical who have a better understanding of the message of grace(the justification, sanctification of the believer) than most Evangelical churches.

I have my own opinion as to why this happens. Many accept the fullness of the Holy Spirit into their lives, but then, in their eagerness(zealousness) to live according to the conviction placed on them, they try and make themselves good enough for God-in reality. Only two results are possible. Either you give up crushed, or you become somewhat hard nosed, and put on an act before others you know you cannot live up to beneath the skin.

Your beliefs are very similar to the church of my youth. The gist is the same, you just word it a bit differently.

Anyway, now I go to a church that does not call itself ''Charasmatic'' but it has the core of the teaching. It doesn't crush others.

You see, a message of. ''The key to living an ever holier life is knowing Jesus died for all your sins, past, present and future'' does not rest easy with many, and it seems to rest least easy with the churches I spent so many years in, in my youth.

I am all for preaching grace and the churches I go to do preach grace, but they also preach the literal letter of the NT along side it. You can not preach one without the other as this is a dangerous teaching.
One church may teach grace but never teach their congregation how to receive that grace through Christ, and I have seen some churches that do that.
Then you can have like you say a church that preaches the literal letter but no grace along side it.
Both of these is wrong as our churches should have a balance of both in their teachings, which is where I come from. I do not just focus on one aspect and not the other, it may seem that way because we are mostly discussing in here in threads about the law or works. I defend the aspect of the works that are a product of the Holy Spirit in a true believer, that will lead one to walk in love which upholds the standards/teachings of the Lord.

For God's grace does teach us that He will not let us go beyond what we can handle, and will help us through all of our issues if we hand all our problems to Him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am all for preaching grace and the churches I go to do preach grace, but they also preach the literal letter of the NT along side it. You can not preach one without the other as this is a dangerous teaching.
One church may teach grace but never teach their congregation how to receive that grace through Christ, and I have seen some churches that do that.
Then you can have like you say a church that preaches the literal letter but no grace along side it.
Both of these is wrong as our churches should have a balance of both in their teachings, which is where I come from. I do not just focus on one aspect and not the other, it may seem that way because we are mostly discussing in here in threads about the law or works. I defend the aspect of the works that are a product of the Holy Spirit in a true believer, that will lead one to walk in love which upholds the standards/teachings of the Lord.

For God's grace does teach us that He will not let us go beyond what we can handle, and will help us through all of our issues if we hand all our problems to Him.

You can not claim to preach grace, then preach one must earn it by doing something.

They are diametrically apposed to each other.

Grace is unearned favor. mercy given to the one who does not deserve it.

 

[kennethcadwell]

How can you say God gets all the glory, when all you do is speak of what you do and what everyone else does not do.

How does God get glory, when you as you professed, have earned your own salvation?

Thats not giving glory to God. that taking glory for yourself. Or as paul calls it, Boasting

so in other words.

Thank God your not like the sinner, You only "mess up" from time to time.

No boasting or taking credit here

No I am not boasting or taking credit as I give it all to God.
You say just because I say I don't do this or that I am taking the credit, wrong because I say thanks to God and His Holy Spirit I am the way that I am. I do not take credit for what the Lord has done in my life, and just because I may say I or me in my speaking is not taking credit. Remember Apostle Paul did the same thing;

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

No I never say thank God I am not like other sinners, as I say thank God He is working in me by His Holy Spirit to mold me and make me better and keep me from walking in the sinful ways I use to. People must understand the difference in boasting and giving one's testimony which we are told to do. If I tell people how God has changed my life that is not boasting about my own doings, as it is Him working in and through me and not myself.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You can not claim to preach grace, then preach one must earn it by doing something.

They are diametrically apposed to each other.

Grace is unearned favor. mercy given to the one who does not deserve it.

There you go again as I have never said you must earn it !!!


I said works of the Holy Spirit go hand and hand with faith unto salvation, because the bible does say and show this. You do not earn salvation, but you do not have salvation if there is no proof of the Holy Spirit abiding in you. The branch bears fruit from the tree, no good fruit then no rooting of the branch within the tree. The bible says those that bear no fruit or bad fruit will be gathered and burned.

 

[blue_ladybug]

we are saved by grace, NOT by works..