Sermon on the mount - life or legalistic junk

[Chokmahiel]

Blessed is the Most High God and his son Jesus Christ whom will rule forever and ever.

Matthew 5:1-12

1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

 

[PeterJens]

I would agree that the Pharisees were the epitome of lawlessness even though they kept the Law of Moses outwardly which is why the disciples were shocked when Jesus said "Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees - you will not enter the kingdom.".

Jesus said this of their authority.

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Mat 23:2-5

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Matt 5:18

Walking in Christ is not lawlessness or following the teaching in Moses law lawlessness.

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
2 Thess 2:3

The pharisees mistake was not having a loving heart, yet outwardly appearing to
follow the law, while subtly changing its meaning and intentions.

You will not read in scripture about self righteousness, because it is very close to
righteousness and doing the right thing in everything in your life.

Whatever spirit is a work here, to align doing the right thing with the word lawlessness
is driven by a deep desire to bring down those who think they have achieved something
but the writer feels they are the epitome of evil and the enemy of God, so want to
apply such a term to them.

This is a demonstration of why emotional antagonism does not define scriptural definitions.

Walking with a heart of love, applying justice, mercy, and faithfulness in life is where
Gods heart is. Those who have a form of godliness but deny its core realities are what
Jesus describes

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"
"on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."
Matt 23:33/23:28

So this is totally false teaching using the word lawlessness, but for those with
antagonism and want to despise others, it is their highest insult.

Now I am not defending self justification before the Lord, I am defending this

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Matt 5:6

This is our hearts desire, is in Christ what we live and breath for, to demonstrate
love reaching out to a lost world in purity and grace through good works.

So these definitions matter or else you end up destroying the
very witness of the people of God, which is the enemies deepest desire.

 

[mailmandan]

Glad you used Heb 10: 29.....

26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

To "sin willfully" (Hebrews 10:26) in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21) not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in v. 29 seems to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians; is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation.

In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians and sinful things without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with Scripture.

In verse 39, the author sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and by repudiating the work and the person of Christ himself. Such a person’s apostasy is thus evidence that his identification with the Christian community was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I wish I had more time because certain parts of the sermon on the mount are in the Hebrew Bible in the book of Samuel. If things go quiet later this year I will share some of it with my fellow CC brothers and sisters

 

[mailmandan]

This verse is not describing an unsaved person as apposed to a saved person.

Walking in the light is descriptive of a believer who is filled with the Spirit and walking in the Spirit. We have fellowship with Him when we are doing this. If we(as saved believers) don't have fellowship with Him(grieving or quenching the Spirit) we, as believers, walk in darkness and do not practice the truth. It doesn't mean we are not saved.

hmm... So walks in darkness, lies, does not practice the truth describes a believer? Did you not read all of post #304?

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In vs. 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that walks in darkness, does not practice righteousness/the truth, hates his brother is connected to "children of the devil" and not children of God.

 

[preacher4truth]

This verse is not describing an unsaved person as apposed to a saved person.

Walking in the light is descriptive of a believer who is filled with the Spirit and walking in the Spirit. We have fellowship with Him when we are doing this. If we(as saved believers) don't have fellowship with Him(grieving or quenching the Spirit) we, as believers, walk in darkness and do not practice the truth. It doesn't mean we are not saved.

Incorrect so I must disagree with what you say.

Sir, you missed the entire context and point of 1 John in its test and comparisons of the "we"/"they". "We" being the saved and the "they" (those who walk in darkness/do not practice the truth) are the lost, even if professing belief.

Also, many rush to 1 John 5:13 to ensure a person is saved because one day they prayed a prayer of belief, or made a profession of faith. That's presumptuous, the concluding thoughts in that verse are tied to passing the tests of conversion throughout 1 John and it applies only to these. IOW, true belief (conversion) must be qualified, quantified and accept examination.

 

[Ariel82]

The very nature of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross lends the carnal mind of man to think that the gospel that Paul preached produces licentiousness - because the religious mind of man is sin-conscious instead of Christ-conscious.

Paul had to defend the accusation that he was preaching that people can sin all they want now because of grace at least 4x times. People do the same thing today when it comes to the gospel of the grace of God when it is preached like it was by Peter and Paul in Acts 10 and Acts 13.

Romans 3:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come"? Their condemnation is just.

The gospel is scandalous to the religious sin-conscious mind of man and especially to the works-righteousness mindset. Christ finished work on the cross is a stumbling block to all those of us that have a self-righteousness/holiness mindset that is dependent on what they do or don't do.

This is an anti-Christ belief system at it's core. Sin-consciousness and sin management is the fuel for the fire of religion.

Sounds like bladderdash to me.

I got what he was saying, but disagree that it should be a goal.

I also disagree with the attitude that if someone doesn't get what you are saying, then they must be "carnal minded"

Sometimes they may not get what is being said because the person who is explaining it isn't doing a good job explaining.

So the goal should be that all understand the gospel and accept Jesus. Not to be misunderstood.

I don't believe it's a good measuring stick and doesn't really relate to the topic of this thread and is just a jab.

However, it's been over a year. I doubt you will change your pattern of bad behavior anymore than others will.

One would hope, but it looks unlikely.

 

[gb9]

Sounds like bladderdash to me.

I got what he was saying, but disagree that it should be a goal.

I also disagree with the attitude that if someone doesn't get what you are saying, then they must be "carnal minded"

Sometimes they may not get what is being said because the person who is explaining it isn't doing a good job explaining.

So the goal should be that all understand the gospel and accept Jesus. Not to be misunderstood.

I don't believe it's a good measuring stick and doesn't really relate to the topic of this thread and is just a jab.

However, it's been over a year. I doubt you will change your pattern of bad behavior anymore than others will.

One would hope, but it looks unlikely.

o.k. , so you put down grace7, but you defend peter, who lies, slanders, and throws out religious triple-speak daily. nice thinking.

 

[Ariel82]

Jesus said this of their authority.

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Mat 23:2-5

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Matt 5:18

Walking in Christ is not lawlessness or following the teaching in Moses law lawlessness.

Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
2 Thess 2:3

The pharisees mistake was not having a loving heart, yet outwardly appearing to
follow the law, while subtly changing its meaning and intentions.

You will not read in scripture about self righteousness, because it is very close to
righteousness and doing the right thing in everything in your life.

Whatever spirit is a work here, to align doing the right thing with the word lawlessness
is driven by a deep desire to bring down those who think they have achieved something
but the writer feels they are the epitome of evil and the enemy of God, so want to
apply such a term to them.

This is a demonstration of why emotional antagonism does not define scriptural definitions.

Walking with a heart of love, applying justice, mercy, and faithfulness in life is where
Gods heart is. Those who have a form of godliness but deny its core realities are what
Jesus describes

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"
"on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness."
Matt 23:33/23:28

So this is totally false teaching using the word lawlessness, but for those with
antagonism and want to despise others, it is their highest insult.

Now I am not defending self justification before the Lord, I am defending this

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Matt 5:6

This is our hearts desire, is in Christ what we live and breath for, to demonstrate
love reaching out to a lost world in purity and grace through good works.

So these definitions matter or else you end up destroying the
very witness of the people of God, which is the enemies deepest desire.

You both agree that pharisees are bad.

Why the attack?

He isn't even posting anything about you. The guy is just talking.

Unless I missed a post, he hasn't called you a Pharisee.

This paranoid defense because of an imaged slight is not Christ like behavior.

Jesus says in the sermon on the mount "bless those who curse you"

Yet for someone who preaches that we should follow it...

All I see from folks is that people curse those who curse them.

No one truly blesses others who hurt them.

I admit to finding it hard to forgive and not lash out.

Some time that is as much as I can manage.

However God asks for more than forgiveness. He asks us to love them.

To look beyond how they have hurt us and see how they are hurting. To learn how to help them heal and listen and pray. To love without expecting them to be nice or thankful.

That is the kind of love God calls for, yet is too rarely found in the world. Especially on CC BDF.

 

[John146]

So in this version of faith, perfect spirit, a body that gets redeemed. But how is the body
redeemed, does the spirit have to get a redeeming over draft from God to do repairs, go
to the body shop for a quick spray job, have major plastic surgery for the saggy bits?

I mean what is the problem, my body needs to know before body and spirit have different
destinations, I mean a body sent to hell and a spirit sent to heaven, who fells the pain
and who enjoys communion, what a dilemma ....

A saved persons body goes to the grave, the spirit returns to God, the giver of life, and the soul is present with the Lord. At the resurrection, the body is changed into the image of Christ, the spirit gives life to the body, and the soul returns to dwell within this redeemed body for eternity.

 

[preacher4truth]

o.k. , so you put down grace7, but you defend peter, who lies, slanders, and throws out religious triple-speak daily. nice thinking.

A little premature and knee-jerk, right?

 

[Grace777x70]

Sounds like bladderdash to me.

I got what he was saying, but disagree that it should be a goal.

I also disagree with the attitude that if someone doesn't get what you are saying, then they must be "carnal minded"

Sometimes they may not get what is being said because the person who is explaining it isn't doing a good job explaining.

So the goal should be that all understand the gospel and accept Jesus. Not to be misunderstood.

I don't believe it's a good measuring stick and doesn't really relate to the topic of this thread and is just a jab.

However, it's been over a year. I doubt you will change your pattern of bad behavior anymore than others will.

One would hope, but it looks unlikely.

Ariel...it is simply a fact that many mis-understand the gospel to think people are saying we can sin all we want now because of the grace of God. That is what Mr. Martyn LLoyd-Jones was saying. They accused Paul of the very same thing.

It is not a "goal" for people to mis-understand the gospel - I don't have a clue where you came up with that strange thought but the "goal" is to understand the true grace of God so that people will be free and walk with the Lord in His liberty and thus be able to help others.

And it is the carnal mind of man that thinks we can sin all we want now because they don't understand the grace of God. Don't be offended - this is not bad behavior as you are surmising.

 

[gb9]

A little premature and knee-jerk, right?

well. I just get tired of seeing a guy who does nothing but bring a solid grace message every day get attacked. one person lies, slanders, and refuses to give straight answers, one talks about the love and grace of God daily.

which one is better. which one should not get attacked?

 

[Ariel82]

o.k. , so you put down grace7, but you defend peter, who lies, slanders, and throws out religious triple-speak daily. nice thinking.

No i have asked both to display Christ Like love to one another.

My skeptical side finds it highly unlikely.

However I have faith that anything is possible through Christ.

What if you? Will you be like Saul and hold the garments if they were to stone Stephen?

We talk about the Bible all the time on this forum, but how many apply it to our lives?

I don't know why people act like they do.

If you see someone believing a lie, how do you react?

Do you attack and call them a liar or do you help them see the truth that combats the lies?

God says our enemies are not flesh but spiritual wickedness.

The battle is real and wages ever day here.

Yet I see more causlties of war, then saints reaching out a healing hand to others.

I see people judging and Condemning and cursing others of sins they themselves commit.

Cursing is more than saying a bad word. It is a heart that thinks evil towards another person. It is when someone looks at what is wrong and say that the other person will never change. It is thinking the other person has bad and evil motives. It is judging that their hearts are impure and filled with hatred.

That is cursing that happens in the hearts and minds of people here ever day.

I know I have to stop at times and take those thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.
.I am human and want to get mad and react in anger.

Sometimes myself control slips and I say something out of hurt and pride I shouldn't.

However, God convicts me when the other person cries out in pain.

I can't sit back and laugh at others pain, especially if I am the one who caused it.

I just feel like so many people have garden their hearts and blinded themselves.

Folks talk the good talk, but how many actually live it?

How many have learned to take their tongue and speak only blessings and not curses?

How many take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ?

How many have identified and torn down the spiritual strongholds that war against the knowledge of God or are you still fighting your own demons and projecting them onto others?

How many can truly bless those who curse them by showing agape love?

 

[Ariel82]

well. I just get tired of seeing a guy who does nothing but bring a solid grace message every day get attacked. one person lies, slanders, and refuses to give straight answers, one talks about the love and grace of God daily.

which one is better. which one should not get attacked?

I am not attacking either. Its a rebuke that will probably be rejected by both.

Let me ask you something since you wish to judge between the two....

A kid is building a sand castle. He loves this sand castle and wants to show it to his dad. Objectively, it's not the prettiest thing in the world. Kind of lopsided and round.

His brother comes in and steps on the sand castle and says he has done it all wrong. A castle should have four walls, not be round.

Then the second son precedes to build a sand castle ON TOP OF WHERE the first son was building his to show the first one the "right" way to do it.

The 161st son is now crying and flinging insults and hateful words and seashells at his brother.one even hit his eye and blinds him.

What would the father say to both boys when he arrives?

 

[gb9]

I am not attacking either. Its a rebuke that will probably be rejected by both.

Let me ask you something since you wish to judge between the two....

A kid is building a sand castle. He loves this sand castle and wants to show it to his dad. Objectively, it's not the prettiest thing in the world. Kind of lopsided and round.

His brother comes in and steps on the sand castle and says he has done it all wrong. A castle should have four walls, not be round.

Then the second son precedes to build a sand castle ON TOP OF WHERE the first son was building his to show the first one the "right" way to do it.

The 161st son is now crying and flinging insults and hateful words and seashells at his brother.one even hit his eye and blinds him.

What would the father say to both boys when he arrives?

let me answer you like this- it is not either grace7 or peter for me. they both have their theology firmly in place. the main reason I get involved is this- I care about new or young believers reading these posts. I do not agree with grace7 100% percent, but the attacks on the grace message should be pointed out as wrong, as I do not want others to get led astray by the " saved by grace, maintained by works " stuff.

so, it is really not about me, or them. it is about defending truth.

 

[Ariel82]

let me answer you like this- it is not either grace7 or peter for me. they both have their theology firmly in place. the main reason I get involved is this- I care about new or young believers reading these posts. I do not agree with grace7 100% percent, but the attacks on the grace message should be pointed out as wrong, as I do not want others to get led astray by the " saved by grace, maintained by works " stuff.

so, it is really not about me, or them. it is about defending truth.

I guess for me it's about living the truth you proclaim to be defending.

You can help stomp on the sand castle if you want, but that's not how God taught me how to make friends and teach them what God has taught me.

If God tells me to avoid someone, I don't go into their house and invite my friends there to talk about how wrong the owner of the house is.

 

[Grace777x70]

let me answer you like this- it is not either grace7 or peter for me. they both have their theology firmly in place. the main reason I get involved is this- I care about new or young believers reading these posts. I do not agree with grace7 100% percent, but the attacks on the grace message should be pointed out as wrong, as I do not want others to get led astray by the " saved by grace, maintained by works " stuff.

so, it is really not about me, or them. it is about defending truth.

I agree......and I hope to grow in my understanding of the truths of the love and grace of God for us in Christ's work. I hope a year from now that I too don't believe all that I believe now as the Holy Spirit reveals more of Christ to me. I look forward to repenting as I see new truths of the majesty of the love and grace of God for us in Christ.

I am not ashamed of the gospel for in it is the power of God for salvation to all who believe. In it "the righteousness of God is revealed - from faith to faith." From His faith brings our faith as we see what He has already accomplished for us.

We live by grace through faith in what Christ has done. As we have received Christ - so we walk in Him and it is all the same - by grace through faith in Christ's work. Col. 2:6

It is all about Christ Himself. He is the Alpha and the Omega.

Get this backwards by "doing our own works of self-righteousness" and we create a religion that denies the work of our Lord and Master and it nullifies the very grace we need to effect true transformation in us so that His life will be reflected for people to see the love and grace our Father has for them.

 

[Ariel82]

I agree......and I hope to grow in my understanding of the truths of the love and grace of God for us in Christ's work. I hope a year from now that I too don't believe all that I believe now as the Holy Spirit reveals more of Christ to me. I look forward to repenting as I see new truths of the majesty of the love and grace of God for us in Christ.

I am not ashamed of the gospel for in it is the power of God for salvation to all who believe. In it "the righteousness of God is revealed - from faith to faith." From His faith brings our faith as we see what He has already accomplished for us.

We live by grace through faith in what Christ has done. As we have received Christ - so we walk in Him and it is all the same - by grace through faith in Christ's work. Col. 2:6

It is all about Christ Himself. He is the Alpha and the Omega.

Get this backwards by "doing our own works of self-righteousness" and we create a religion that denies the work of our Lord and Master and it nullifies the very grace we need to effect true transformation in us so that His life will be reflected for people to see the love and grace our Father has for them.

All I hear is "it doesn't matter where I build my sandcastle, look how wonderful it is."

 

[PeterJens]

You both agree that pharisees are bad.
Why the attack?
He isn't even posting anything about you. The guy is just talking.
Unless I missed a post, he hasn't called you a Pharisee.
This paranoid defense because of an imaged slight is not Christ like behavior.
Jesus says in the sermon on the mount "bless those who curse you"
Yet for someone who preaches that we should follow it...
All I see from folks is that people curse those who curse them.
No one truly blesses others who hurt them.
I admit to finding it hard to forgive and not lash out.
Some time that is as much as I can manage.
However God asks for more than forgiveness. He asks us to love them.
To look beyond how they have hurt us and see how they are hurting. To learn how to help them heal and listen and pray. To love without expecting them to be nice or thankful.
That is the kind of love God calls for, yet is too rarely found in the world. Especially on CC BDF.

Ariel - I think you have missed the basic concept being attacked.
A man stands up and says, I am a good person.

Now the problem is this is probably true, except the foundation is wrong,
and sin is carefully hidden.

Now you can say the good person is evil, because of the good they are doing,
or the person is evil because of the evil they are doing and hiding.

Can you see the difference in the approach, and which is of God and which
is not?
is just an attack against righteousness itself?

The whole thrust of this movement is hatred against what they deem as false
righteousness, and claim it is this that is the curse of the church.
It is this which is destructive language and behaviour that plays 100% into the
man of lawlessness, and is a precusor to the rebellion.