Should we follow Jewish or Gentile early Christian Fathers

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,005
1,386
113
#21
There is no such thing as listening to Scripture but not doctrine. False dichotomy.
How can people be so confused about scripture?

But yet state wrong things as though they were fact?

Anti-Paul is Anti-Christ. A misunderstanding of Paul is a misunderstanding of Christ.

Not that anyone can fully understand Christ and His Ministry but Christians should have a pretty good grasp of Paul...

Am I expecting too much?
 
Dec 28, 2016
8,044
1,700
113
#22
How can people be so confused about scripture?

But yet state wrong things as though they were fact?

Anti-Paul is Anti-Christ. A misunderstanding of Paul is a misunderstanding of Christ.

Not that anyone can fully understand Christ and His Ministry but Christians should have a pretty good grasp of Paul...

Am I expecting too much?
1 Timothy 1:7. Nope, you're not expecting too much, it's just frustrating seeing professing believers so far off track. I expect blik to tell us we don't read or follow scripture next, that's his typical response. The fact remains he's in error and his statement I quoted is remarkably absurd, but not surprising.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
9,005
1,386
113
#23
1 Timothy 1:7. Nope, you're not expecting too much, it's just frustrating seeing professing believers so far off track. I expect blik to tell us we don't read or follow scripture next, that's his typical response. The fact remains he's in error and his statement I quoted is remarkably absurd, but not surprising.
I've stated before that if I thought for one second that the Way to God was by the Old Jewish Way I would have a tent in my backyard with all the accoutrements that the Levites had. I would be full, hard-core Judaizer.

But I've come to understand that ALL of that was a Shadow of what was to come.

We are so Blessed to have Christ compared to what the ancient Hebrews had and yet we still have people who desire to go back to the old way.

It just seems like such an insult to Christ and what He came to do for us. I can't seem to just let it slide.

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I would think people, especially Christians, would avoid this at all costs.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,565
405
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#24
The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. From Acts 11:26. That is Scripture. Christians led the church:rolleyes:
The Christians who led the church for the first 132 years were Jewish Christians. Once a year Christians met to make decisions about the church, this went on every year. The church didn't stop growing after Luke told us what was happening in Acts, and the growth the church did in those first 1,000 years set up the doctrines that you and I have been taught today.

We need to look at what was done to establish doctrines AFTER the times Luke tells us about.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
26,526
5,054
113
#25
The Christians who led the church for the first 132 years were Jewish Christians. Once a year Christians met to make decisions about the church, this went on every year. The church didn't stop growing after Luke told us what was happening in Acts, and the growth the church did in those first 1,000 years set up the doctrines that you and I have been taught today.

We need to look at what was done to establish doctrines AFTER the times Luke tells us about.
There is neither Jew nor Greek... I am not as interested in error as I am in the Truth :)
 

SpoonJuly

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2018
1,238
859
113
#26
The Christians who led the church for the first 132 years were Jewish Christians. Once a year Christians met to make decisions about the church, this went on every year. The church didn't stop growing after Luke told us what was happening in Acts, and the growth the church did in those first 1,000 years set up the doctrines that you and I have been taught today.

We need to look at what was done to establish doctrines AFTER the times Luke tells us about.
Well, I and my church reject any and all doctrines established after or in conflict with what is taught in the Scripture.
What the so call church fathers taught must be in accordance with Scripture or rejected totally.
I do not need some self proclaimed church father or theologian telling me what is proper doctrine.
The Scripture is all I need.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,565
405
83
#27
Well, I and my church reject any and all doctrines established after or in conflict with what is taught in the Scripture.
What the so call church fathers taught must be in accordance with Scripture or rejected totally.
I do not need some self proclaimed church father or theologian telling me what is proper doctrine.
The Scripture is all I need.
Our churches are filled with doctrines of early church fathers, I think we need to look at the beginnings of all our traditions and check them with scripture.

Constantine told the council at Nicene Council that the Jews were evil people and anything they did, Christians should not do. The Jews felt the OT was scripture so that threw the OT in doubt. This was the reason, as an example, that Passover was changed to Easter. The only tine the word Easter is in scripture is when the KJV people translated a Hebrew word as Easter.

In mythology they often replace a god they say has gotten too old with a son, and early church fathers felt out God and Father was replaced by Christ the Son in the same way. We know that is not so of our triune God, but often doctrines suggest this. Christ was given great power, but Christ does not replace our creator God.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
8,694
2,546
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#28
I think we should go back over all the man-made doctrines these early gentiles brought in and eliminate those that do no come from God.
Some things which Christians should carefully note:

1. Man-made doctrines first originated with the Jews -- the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes, etc. -- not Gentiles. Jesus of Nazareth (while on earth) spent quite some time addressing these false doctrines (which are now found in the Talmud).

2. The Jews had a golden opportunity to retain leadership within the churches by turning to Christ. Instead they clung to Moses and paid a heavy price. The apostle Paul -- in all his travels -- invariably visited the Jewish synagogues first, but the Gentiles were always more receptive to the Gospel. After that Israel was blinded judicially, and now the Church is primarily Gentile.

3. The Apostolic Fathers (1st and 2nd centuries) were generally maintaining the apostles' doctrines. But very shortly after the apostles departed, false doctrines began to be promoted. After that errors began to multiply until paganism entered into the church of Rome.

4. At the present time, Christendom is in a state of apostasy (generally speaking). So any desire to clean house is just wishful thinking.
I think we should never think of what God tells us as Jewish, but think of what is Godly.
Christians who know their Bibles do not assume that they are reading Jewish truth. Rather they understand that the Bible is the Word of God, and it is only incidentally that all the prophets, evangelists and apostles were Jewish.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
10,668
1,685
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#29
For 72 years Jews led the Christian Church. After 132 years Jewish leaders were all killed in the Bar Kokhba war so gentiles took over leadership. There was a vast difference. Jews had grown up knowing scripture, the gentiles grew up knowing idol worship, mythology, and folklore. The Jews felt Christ was as the OT told of Him. The gentiles thought Christ was a new God. Gentiles thought of Jews as odd people who had strangeways. Gentiles believed they could follow Christ but have nothing to do with anything Jewish.​

Paul told us that the old way of sin was no longer, Christ took the definition of sin to a new and higher level, as Christ explained in the Sermon on the Mt. As an example, the old way was not to murder. The new way was obedience of the spirit of the law. That meant that added to law is thought, word as well as deed.

Gentiles added their doctrine to this. Now everything Jewish was tossed, even what God gave as “for all generations” meaning every person who became God’s own, all God’s family. The gentiles told of God as having the characteristics of the ones they grew up with, for they believed the Father aged and got cranky and mean so the Son took over. That is the way they had been taught that Gods behaved.

God is so powerful and magnificent that even with these ideas added to the attributes of God, what they got right changed their world. These Christians added love and compassion the world had lacked.

I think we should go back over all the man-made doctrines these early gentiles brought in and eliminate those that do no come from God. I think we should never think of what God tells us as Jewish, but think of what is Godly.
There is just so much wrong with this, it is hard to know where to start. First, there was NO universal church, just local churches. So, no one LED the church at all. Or, each church was led differently, and we do not know whether their leaders were Jewish/Gentile or not.

No idea where you got your numbers of 72 years and then 132 years. The church did not exist in Scripture until after Jesus died, was resurrected and ascended to heaven. The birth of the church was Acts 2, when the Holy Spirit descended and every believer was filled by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus died in either 30 or 33 AD, approximately 40 years before the fall of Jerusalem. The Jews either died in Jerusalem, or somehow escaped to stay with the Jews who had left many years earlier. Paul writes about local churches he founded or helped. The Jews were out of Jerusalem, and most of Israel, but they were not wiped out in one incident. We have no idea who became the leaders in the various local churches which eventually all had leadership, although we do not know whether they were Jews or Genitiles, and Paul eliminated those distinctions.

"For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:26-29.

The Jews became united with the Gentiles! No more law. Except Acts 15, and a four rules to follow (not commands!) The few remaining Jews combined and all became Pharisees, who were obsessed with the law, and then wrote commentaries which were pages long. That is where kosher food entered into the discussion.They wanted to keep the Jews in the faith, because many were turning to Christ.

All of the Jews spoke Greek, because it was the lingua franca of the Roman Empire. They had spoken Greek, since the 300s BC. That is why the Septuagint was translated. Because most Jews had lost their Hebrew, and could not read the Bible.

The Gentiles did not change the laws! Where on earth did you get that?? They did not bring in false doctrines. They did not believe that God changed and became an old man. The only place I have ever heard that lie, was in a science fiction series called "That Dark Matter" which was occultic and evil. No record of what you are saying, anywhere.

Support your statements from the Bible, or a reputable historical site. Don't bother to post links to Hebrew Roots lies. You are bamboozled and deceived, Blik. I know you are very old, and I respect you for that. But these outright lies must be stopped.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
2,835
1,979
113
#30
Spoiler alert: There ARE NO known Jewish church fathers!

They were all gentiles. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Polycarp, Origen, etc. etc.

ALL gentiles.

Should we follow them? NO! But should we take into consideration some things they said? I BELIEVE SO! They were close to the Apostles and sacrificed their lives and died for their witness. THEY ARE RULING WITH JESUS IN HEAVEN AS WE SPEAK! Many of them lost their life for Jesus Christ.

Here is what I believe: If you come up with something that NOBODY in church history ever taught, you are in ERROR!
 

SpoonJuly

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2018
1,238
859
113
#31
Our churches are filled with doctrines of early church fathers, I think we need to look at the beginnings of all our traditions and check them with scripture.

Constantine told the council at Nicene Council that the Jews were evil people and anything they did, Christians should not do. The Jews felt the OT was scripture so that threw the OT in doubt. This was the reason, as an example, that Passover was changed to Easter. The only tine the word Easter is in scripture is when the KJV people translated a Hebrew word as Easter.

In mythology they often replace a god they say has gotten too old with a son, and early church fathers felt out God and Father was replaced by Christ the Son in the same way. We know that is not so of our triune God, but often doctrines suggest this. Christ was given great power, but Christ does not replace our creator God.
When you say "Our churches" you are making a statement you can not know is fact.
That may very well be true in your church, but not in mine.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
2,835
1,979
113
#32
AT the risk of backlash I will SAY this:

If its a "Jewish doctrine" the MORE likely it is to be WRONG and not right!

Beware the leven of the pharisees!

Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,498
879
113
#33
Sticking to the bible, listening to scripture and not doctrine, and knowing it was not Jews who wrote it but God who gave the information to the Jews to write it down. THIS is my point. I am asking if you agree?
Are you saying God gave them information and they wrote down what they thought he was saying as a private interpretation.? or like with Balaam's Ass that was used to show God is not served by human hands, he used a unclean animal to represent one who believes not in order to restrain the madness of that false prophet?

The scripture warns of the "law of the fathers" as a false zeal for knowing God . It makes the law of our one Father in heaven as it is written in the law and the prophets without effect taking away the understanding of God not seen giving it to those seen . it was by that law of the fathers that the Christians were persecuted against, killing and torturing those who walked by faith .with the kind of religion "out of sight out of mind".
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
9,896
4,656
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#34
Are you saying God gave them information and they wrote down what they thought he was saying as a private interpretation.?
Garee, your use of "private interpretation" is still inconsistent with Scripture (2 Peter 1:21). The verse is talking about the origin of the prophesied message, not the path of understanding.
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
1,014
608
113
Texas
#35
The premise of this thread is a False dichotomy.
They are either biblical or they are not. There is no contradiction in Christ.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
9,896
4,656
113
#36
The premise of this thread is a False dichotomy.
They are either biblical or they are not. There is no contradiction in Christ.
Actually, the premise isn't a false dichotomy, because there aren't any other options. Either a so-called "church father" was ethnically Jewish, or he wasn't, in which case he was ethnically Gentile.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,565
405
83
#37
Some things which Christians should carefully note:

1. Man-made doctrines first originated with the Jews -- the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes, etc. -- not Gentiles. Jesus of Nazareth (while on earth) spent quite some time addressing these false doctrines (which are now found in the Talmud).
Some things which Christians should carefully note:

1. Man-made doctrines first originated with the Jews -- the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes, etc. -- not Gentiles. Jesus of Nazareth (while on earth) spent quite some time addressing these false doctrines (which are now found in the Talmud).

2. The Jews had a golden opportunity to retain leadership within the churches by turning to Christ. Instead they clung to Moses and paid a heavy price. The apostle Paul -- in all his travels -- invariably visited the Jewish synagogues first, but the Gentiles were always more receptive to the Gospel. After that Israel was blinded judicially, and now the Church is primarily Gentile.

3. The Apostolic Fathers (1st and 2nd centuries) were generally maintaining the apostles' doctrines. But very shortly after the apostles departed, false doctrines began to be promoted. After that errors began to multiply until paganism entered into the church of Rome.

4. At the present time, Christendom is in a state of apostasy (generally speaking). So any desire to clean house is just wishful thinking.

Christians who know their Bibles do not assume that they are reading Jewish truth. Rather they understand that the Bible is the Word of God, and it is only incidentally that all the prophets, evangelists and apostles were Jewish.
1. Jewish man-made doctrines are for another post. 2. When Rome put down the rebellion of 72 and the Bar Kokhba war of 132 so many Jews were killed that there weren't any left to take over leadership. 3. I think you are right, but since the deep sea scrolls were examined and after the Holocaust there has been a back to scripture wave. 4. Thank you, I love it when others think of something the same way I do.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
8,694
2,546
113
#38
Am I expecting too much?
More than likely. The absence of systematic and serious Bible study within most evangelical and fundamental churches, particularly failure to show Christians the nuts and bolts of Bible study (the mechanics of Bible study) has led to a lot of spiritual ignorance and spiritual confusion. Also focusing on the milk of the Word and neglecting the meat has produced a serious *nutritional deficiency*.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,565
405
83
#39
There is just so much wrong with this, it is hard to know where to start. First, there was NO universal church, just local churches. So, no one LED the church at all. Or, each church was led differently, and we do not know whether their leaders were Jewish/Gentile or not.

No idea where you got your numbers of 72 years and then 132 years. The church did not exist in Scripture until after Jesus died, was resurrected and ascended to heaven. The birth of the church was Acts 2, when the Holy Spirit descended and every believer was filled by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus died in either 30 or 33 AD, approximately 40 years before the fall of Jerusalem. The Jews either died in Jerusalem, or somehow escaped to stay with the Jews who had left many years earlier. Paul writes about local churches he founded or helped. The Jews were out of Jerusalem, and most of Israel, but they were not wiped out in one incident. We have no idea who became the leaders in the various local churches which eventually all had leadership, although we do not know whether they were Jews or Genitiles, and Paul eliminated those distinctions.

"For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:26-29.

The Jews became united with the Gentiles! No more law. Except Acts 15, and a four rules to follow (not commands!) The few remaining Jews combined and all became Pharisees, who were obsessed with the law, and then wrote commentaries which were pages long. That is where kosher food entered into the discussion.They wanted to keep the Jews in the faith, because many were turning to Christ.

All of the Jews spoke Greek, because it was the lingua franca of the Roman Empire. They had spoken Greek, since the 300s BC. That is why the Septuagint was translated. Because most Jews had lost their Hebrew, and could not read the Bible.

The Gentiles did not change the laws! Where on earth did you get that?? They did not bring in false doctrines. They did not believe that God changed and became an old man. The only place I have ever heard that lie, was in a science fiction series called "That Dark Matter" which was occultic and evil. No record of what you are saying, anywhere.

Support your statements from the Bible, or a reputable historical site. Don't bother to post links to Hebrew Roots lies. You are bamboozled and deceived, Blik. I know you are very old, and I respect you for that. But these outright lies must be stopped.
So much truth in this post, and so often that truth is made to support what isn't true! How!! could this be.

It is true there were small churches but not true that there were no councils and meetings of leaders. James, the brother of Christ, was one of these leaders.

Angela seems to say she knows of the 72 and 132 AD wars, then denies that they killed so many leaders the gentiles took over leadership.

She says we don't know about these gentile leaders, but much of what they wrote has been preserved. Here are some of them: Clement, Ignatius, Flavuis, Justin, Piny.

Angela tells us that it was universally accepted that there were no Jews and gentiles, all were the same. That is true, but it was not universally accepted then as it is not universally accepted today.

The Greek language was spoken in Christ's day, as well as the Aramaic. With the findings of the dead sea scrolls we have learned that the Hebrews still spoke their language for most of the scrolls were in that language. Also, the notes found in the burial boxes are all in Hebrew. There were even five scrolls in ancient Hebrew.

You have only to read the letters of Constantine to list the things that the gentiles changed from scripture. We still have those letters he wrote, and a report of some speeches.

Angela tells me not to even mention "Hebrew Roots", and that is another way of saying not to mention any scripture God gave before Christ.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,565
405
83
#40
Are you saying God gave them information and they wrote down what they thought he was saying as a private interpretation.? or like with Balaam's Ass that was used to show God is not served by human hands, he used a unclean animal to represent one who believes not in order to restrain the madness of that false prophet?

The scripture warns of the "law of the fathers" as a false zeal for knowing God . It makes the law of our one Father in heaven as it is written in the law and the prophets without effect taking away the understanding of God not seen giving it to those seen . it was by that law of the fathers that the Christians were persecuted against, killing and torturing those who walked by faith .with the kind of religion "out of sight out of mind".
God gave man the principles and attributes of God. These men reported this with all the knowledge they had of the world. They could not use what they didn't know and they didn't know of airplanes, telephones, running water in the house. They even had different ways of expressing themselves, they would never say "that takes the cake" or "has the cat got your tongue". They would speak of a salt covenant, or "an eye for an eye". We need to understand their culture to know what God is telling us.