Should we follow Jewish or Gentile early Christian Fathers

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
10,900
5,370
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#41
Angela tells me not to even mention "Hebrew Roots", and that is another way of saying not to mention any scripture God gave before Christ.
What a silly corruption of what she wrote! "Hebrew Roots" is a movement of confusion, attempting to drag Christians back into observance of the Mosaic law from which the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ freed them. It is not "another way of saying...".

Why do you do this? Why do you completely change what people write, and then claim that is what they wrote? It's called a strawman fallacy, and it's generally employed by people who don't know how to form a sound argument. Kindly stop using it.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,456
1,000
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#42
God gave man the principles and attributes of God. These men reported this with all the knowledge they had of the world. They could not use what they didn't know and they didn't know of airplanes, telephones, running water in the house. They even had different ways of expressing themselves, they would never say "that takes the cake" or "has the cat got your tongue". They would speak of a salt covenant, or "an eye for an eye". We need to understand their culture to know what God is telling us.
We do not know Christ after the knowledge of this world.

I would say we need to know what form of government in which time period which was be restored when the time of reformation came. I am not sure of any commandment that requires we follow acultural understanding .Cultural understanding would seem to be more of the oral traditions of men.
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
1,568
361
83
53
#43
For 72 years Jews led the Christian Church. After 132 years Jewish leaders were all killed in the Bar Kokhba war so gentiles took over leadership. There was a vast difference. Jews had grown up knowing scripture, the gentiles grew up knowing idol worship, mythology, and folklore. The Jews felt Christ was as the OT told of Him. The gentiles thought Christ was a new God. Gentiles thought of Jews as odd people who had strangeways. Gentiles believed they could follow Christ but have nothing to do with anything Jewish.​

Paul told us that the old way of sin was no longer, Christ took the definition of sin to a new and higher level, as Christ explained in the Sermon on the Mt. As an example, the old way was not to murder. The new way was obedience of the spirit of the law. That meant that added to law is thought, word as well as deed.

Gentiles added their doctrine to this. Now everything Jewish was tossed, even what God gave as “for all generations” meaning every person who became God’s own, all God’s family. The gentiles told of God as having the characteristics of the ones they grew up with, for they believed the Father aged and got cranky and mean so the Son took over. That is the way they had been taught that Gods behaved.

God is so powerful and magnificent that even with these ideas added to the attributes of God, what they got right changed their world. These Christians added love and compassion the world had lacked.

I think we should go back over all the man-made doctrines these early gentiles brought in and eliminate those that do no come from God. I think we should never think of what God tells us as Jewish, but think of what is Godly.
Neither ! Why are you working so hard to undo the work of Jesus Christ on the cross ? Your spirit kills the simplicity of the Gospel.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
It’s plain to see right there .
Also stay off your horse . Your going to get a nose bleed up there .
Blessings
Bill
 
Dec 28, 2016
8,136
1,742
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#44
The title of the OP is divisive in itself and reminds me of the church at Corinth in their proud following of others. Therefore it was divided; 1 Corinthians 3:4, and carnal; 1 Corinthians 3:3.

Aren't we supposed to avoid this in the body, those who cause division, not to mention those who teach contrary to true doctrine? Romans 16:17?

Following any man to the point of making it divisive is something to be avoided. Do we realize that even Christ was being misused to cause division by those who said "We follow Christ" 1 Corinthians 1:12, 13? Yes, that too was divisive, Christ was being misused and his office title used in vain.

We have some here, who in spite of Scripture still behave this way, that is, they behave in a carnal manner, are quarrelsome and divisive in their claiming "I follow Christ!" (meaning not Paul) sowing both discord and causing division. Paul rebukes all sides of the schism in 1 Corinthians 1:13.

Yet this goes to another level of arrogant and proud division when others are told by the complicit they don't know, read, or follow Scripture.

That my friends is carnal and divisive behavior.

If in fact our friend here is 94 years of age, I do apologize if I am coming across harsh here, but it needs to be said because it is unbiblical. Blik, with all due respect you should know better, especially sir if you are indeed the age that you state you are.
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
1,472
953
113
Texas
#45
For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided?
1 Corinthians 1:11‭-‬13 NASB

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
Galatians 3:27‭-‬29 NASB

nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
1 Timothy 1:4‭-‬7 NASB

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
Titus 3:9‭-‬11 NASB

Such factions do not exist among believers we are one body, redeemed from such divisions.
 
Nov 21, 2017
56
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#46
For 72 years Jews led the Christian Church. After 132 years Jewish leaders were all killed in the Bar Kokhba war so gentiles took over leadership. There was a vast difference. Jews had grown up knowing scripture, the gentiles grew up knowing idol worship, mythology, and folklore. The Jews felt Christ was as the OT told of Him. The gentiles thought Christ was a new God. Gentiles thought of Jews as odd people who had strangeways. Gentiles believed they could follow Christ but have nothing to do with anything Jewish.​

Paul told us that the old way of sin was no longer, Christ took the definition of sin to a new and higher level, as Christ explained in the Sermon on the Mt. As an example, the old way was not to murder. The new way was obedience of the spirit of the law. That meant that added to law is thought, word as well as deed.

Gentiles added their doctrine to this. Now everything Jewish was tossed, even what God gave as “for all generations” meaning every person who became God’s own, all God’s family. The gentiles told of God as having the characteristics of the ones they grew up with, for they believed the Father aged and got cranky and mean so the Son took over. That is the way they had been taught that Gods behaved.

God is so powerful and magnificent that even with these ideas added to the attributes of God, what they got right changed their world. These Christians added love and compassion the world had lacked.

I think we should go back over all the man-made doctrines these early gentiles brought in and eliminate those that do no come from God. I think we should never think of what God tells us as Jewish, but think of what is Godly.
I find this very interesting and would love to know the truth.

I have heard similar things regarding this. That the gentiles distanced themselves from their Jewish roots for fear of the Romans.

The Bible does teach us that the tree that bare the branches, some were broken off because they did not believe in Christ, and the gentiles who believed in Christ was added to it. So there is a connection, because the root bared Israel before Jesus came, and only those who believed in Christ stayed in the root, and then the gentile believers were added with the Jewish believers, in the root that was baring Israel before Christ.

There are many traditions of men. The Bible talks about rejecting Gods word to keep their own traditions and keeping doctrines of men. (Mark 7)

I remember reading somewhere about Polycarp, disciple of John. When the Bishop of Rome was trying to get him (and others) to observe Easter and he refused, because he observe Passover. Then, if memory serves me, he was murdered.

So if John's disciple refused to observe Easter, and Easter is a mistranslated (whether purposely or not), then this could very well mean Easter is an invention, a doctrine, a tradition of men by the Church of Rome.

I'm on board for more discussion and information regarding this matter.
 
Nov 21, 2017
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#47
The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. From Acts 11:26. That is Scripture. Christians led the church:rolleyes:
I am so glad our preachers and Sunday school teachers don't roll their eyes at us. It is sort of belittling if not rude.

But anyhow. Who lead the church up to Act 11:26?
 
Nov 21, 2017
56
20
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#48
The Christians who led the church for the first 132 years were Jewish Christians. Once a year Christians met to make decisions about the church, this went on every year. The church didn't stop growing after Luke told us what was happening in Acts, and the growth the church did in those first 1,000 years set up the doctrines that you and I have been taught today.

We need to look at what was done to establish doctrines AFTER the times Luke tells us about.
I am not sure who "led" the church. But Polycarp was the Bishop of Smryna, wasn't he a Gentile? Does anyone know?
 
Nov 21, 2017
56
20
8
#49
What a silly corruption of what she wrote! "Hebrew Roots" is a movement of confusion, attempting to drag Christians back into observance of the Mosaic law from which the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ freed them. It is not "another way of saying...".

Why do you do this? Why do you completely change what people write, and then claim that is what they wrote? It's called a strawman fallacy, and it's generally employed by people who don't know how to form a sound argument. Kindly stop using it.

Guess I don't get out much. I never heard of a movement called "hebrew roots". Interesting. Will go look that up.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
27,485
5,943
113
#50
I am so glad our preachers and Sunday school teachers don't roll their eyes at us. It is sort of belittling if not rude.

But anyhow. Who lead the church up to Act 11:26?
You seem to take exception to the choice of emojis available for us to use; perhaps you could take it up with the site owner, his name is RoboOp, good luck! By the way, an education does not require you to get out much. Stick around and you may learn a few things, including learning to recognize those who constantly demand we keep laws that were never given to us in the first place... those who refuse to accept that we are saved by grace and not by works. Awwww, you may even come to roll your eyes at their relentless and dishonest line of attack, and someone else will tell you that you are being rude and belittling to do so. That's what happens here on a regular basis: people you do not even know pretend they have some right to judge you.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,705
494
83
#51
We do not know Christ after the knowledge of this world.

I would say we need to know what form of government in which time period which was be restored when the time of reformation came. I am not sure of any commandment that requires we follow acultural understanding .Cultural understanding would seem to be more of the oral traditions of men.
We are not to follow anything but God, not culture or someone interpretation of God. But if we don't understand what scripture is saying about God, how can we follow it? And if we don't know the language and way of the person telling us what God is saying, how can we know from his words what he is trying to express?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,705
494
83
#52
Neither ! Why are you working so hard to undo the work of Jesus Christ on the cross ? Your spirit kills the simplicity of the Gospel.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
It’s plain to see right there .
Also stay off your horse . Your going to get a nose bleed up there .
Blessings
Bill
I am working, praying, and fasting for God's spirit in me, and that is leading me to try to convince people to accept the word as truth. ONLY the word. People's eternal life depends on it.

Christ is God. Why would speaking of God to you be against Him?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,705
494
83
#53
The title of the OP is divisive in itself and reminds me of the church at Corinth in their proud following of others. Therefore it was divided; 1 Corinthians 3:4, and carnal; 1 Corinthians 3:3.

Aren't we supposed to avoid this in the body, those who cause division, not to mention those who teach contrary to true doctrine? Romans 16:17?

Following any man to the point of making it divisive is something to be avoided. Do we realize that even Christ was being misused to cause division by those who said "We follow Christ" 1 Corinthians 1:12, 13? Yes, that too was divisive, Christ was being misused and his office title used in vain.

We have some here, who in spite of Scripture still behave this way, that is, they behave in a carnal manner, are quarrelsome and divisive in their claiming "I follow Christ!" (meaning not Paul) sowing both discord and causing division. Paul rebukes all sides of the schism in 1 Corinthians 1:13.

Yet this goes to another level of arrogant and proud division when others are told by the complicit they don't know, read, or follow Scripture.

That my friends is carnal and divisive behavior.

If in fact our friend here is 94 years of age, I do apologize if I am coming across harsh here, but it needs to be said because it is unbiblical. Blik, with all due respect you should know better, especially sir if you are indeed the age that you state you are.
How could we be working for division if we check the doctrines of our church with what the word tells us to see if they truly agree be dividing? It is checking our church history for divisions and putting unity with God back.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,705
494
83
#54
[QUOTE="Locoponydirtman, post: 3849732, member: 275951"
Such factions do not exist among believers we are one body, redeemed from such divisions.[/QUOTE] If you truly believe that there is no difference between accepted church doctrines and the doctrines of the Lord you are being blind to God.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,705
494
83
#56
I am not sure who "led" the church. But Polycarp was the Bishop of Smryna, wasn't he a Gentile? Does anyone know?
Polycarp was a gentile. At the time he was a Christian leader the Roman church excommunicated any church who observed the holidays asked for in scripture such as Passover. Polycarp opposed the Roman church, saying the feasts God asks for should be observed.
 

SpoonJuly

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2018
1,323
940
113
#57
I am working, praying, and fasting for God's spirit in me, and that is leading me to try to convince people to accept the word as truth. ONLY the word. People's eternal life depends on it.

Christ is God. Why would speaking of God to you be against Him?
Will you be honest with us and answer a couple of questions so we will know what you believe?

Do you believe that keeping the sabbath is according to Scripture?
Do you believe that keeping the Sabbath is necessary for salvation?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,456
1,000
113
#58
We are not to follow anything but God, not culture or someone interpretation of God. But if we don't understand what scripture is saying about God, how can we follow it? And if we don't know the language and way of the person telling us what God is saying, how can we know from his words what he is trying to express?
To coin a phrase" Jesus is the way "

I think it is one of those one day at a time or one moment or one verse or even one word at a time. He instructs us to study in order to seek His approval . An interpretation that was not understood before can come if we continue to seek his approval according to the loving commandment.

If we would compare the spiritual understanding to the unseen spiritual (faith to faith) according to the prescription for rightly dividing is word. He then can have success in teaches us and bringing to our memories the things he has taught us.

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.2 Corithians 4:18
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,456
1,000
113
#59
Will you be honest with us and answer a couple of questions so we will know what you believe?

Do you believe that keeping the sabbath is according to Scripture?
Do you believe that keeping the Sabbath is necessary for salvation?
The word Sabbath is used two ways. One as a cerimoinal law or carnal ordinace by which we cannot judge each other with . And the true sabbath God working to give us rest, softening our hearts as we do mix faith (believe Him not seen) in what we do hear or see.

God kept the sabbath on the 7th day. It remains to be kept by Him as the tool he uses to soften our hard hearts.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,705
494
83
#60
Will you be honest with us and answer a couple of questions so we will know what you believe?

Do you believe that keeping the sabbath is according to Scripture?
Do you believe that keeping the Sabbath is necessary for salvation?
I don't think it matters a wit what I believe, I try to keep myself out of it. I do think it matters what is the truth in the Lord.

According to scripture it tells us that we are to keep the Sabbath and the Sabbath is the last day of the week.

The only way to salvation is through Christ's blood the Lord with His grace gives us salvation. We are told to take our sins to Christ with repentance and through that the Father gives us salvation. However, God is one, and not three altho there are three attributes we are told of.

You cannot go to the Lord telling Him "I keep the Sabbath, so give me salvation". Frankly, to purposely sin over and over seems to me to be questionable. Where is repentance in that? Yet, we know we are human and humans sin.