Should we stand with Israel?

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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#21
(Jer. 31:35-37) "Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; if heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the eaerth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD."

No problem a'tall.

Quantrill
Still, you would have a very hard time proving that today's state of Israel is the one of the Old testament.

Also, you completely ignored the b) part.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
786
113
#22
(Jer. 31:35-37) "Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Thus saith the LORD; if heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the eaerth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD."

No problem a'tall.

Quantrill
Also, read the context:

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda: 32not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took hold of their hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; for they abode not in my covenant, and I disregarded them, saith the Lord. 33For this is my covenant which I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put my laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. 34And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen, and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them: for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more.
35Thus saith the Lord, who gives the sun for a light by day, the moon and the stars for a light by night, and makes a roaring in the sea, so that the waves thereof roar; the Lord Almighty is his name:
36if these ordinances cease from before me, saith the Lord, then shall the family of Israel cease to be a nation before me forever.


This is about the New Testament Israel - church. Not about some political state in the middle east.

The old is disregarded, the new is eternal.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
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#23
I suppose you have this version of Jeremiah from rabbinical sources, right?

Also, you completely ignored the b) part.
It comes from this Old Book I have.

Read a little bit and you will see that this was written to an Israel that was under judgement. And they have been under that judgement ever since.

Quantrill
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
786
113
#24
It comes from this Old Book I have.

Read a little bit and you will see that this was written to an Israel that was under judgement. And they have been under that judgement ever since.

Quantrill
Its about the New covenant, read the text before it.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
988
300
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#25
Also, read the context:

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda: 32not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took hold of their hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; for they abode not in my covenant, and I disregarded them, saith the Lord. 33For this is my covenant which I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put my laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. 34And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen, and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them: for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more.
35Thus saith the Lord, who gives the sun for a light by day, the moon and the stars for a light by night, and makes a roaring in the sea, so that the waves thereof roar; the Lord Almighty is his name:
36if these ordinances cease from before me, saith the Lord, then shall the family of Israel cease to be a nation before me forever.


This is about the New Testament Israel - church. Not about some political state in the middle east.

No it's not. Making Israel the Church here is ridiculous. Is Judah, Judah? Is Babylon, Babylon?

I did read the context. So? God is going to make a New Covenant with Israel. Pretty clear to me.

Both northern and southern Kingdoms are spoken of, the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

And Israel will be a political state located in the land promised to Abraham. Located in the area where Israel exists today.

Quantrill
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
786
113
#27
No it's not. Making Israel the Church here is ridiculous. Is Judah, Judah? Is Babylon, Babylon?

I did read the context. So? God is going to make a New Covenant with Israel. Pretty clear to me.

Both northern and southern Kingdoms are spoken of, the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

And Israel will be a political state located in the land promised to Abraham. Located in the area where Israel exists today.

Quantrill
This "new covenant" is not in the future, its in our past, it happened in Christ:

But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted upon better promises. 7For if what was first had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second. 8For finding fault with them, He says:
“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord,
and I will ratify a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers,
in the day of My having taken hold of their hand,
to lead them out of the land of Egypt,
because they did not continue in My covenant,
and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says the Lord,
putting My Laws into their mind,
and I will inscribe them upon their hearts;
and I will be to them God,
and they will be to Me for a people"

Heb 8

Ridiculous? Read the commentaries: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/jeremiah/31-31.htm
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
988
300
63
#29
This "new covenant" is not in the future, its in our past, it happened in Christ:

But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted upon better promises. 7For if what was first had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second. 8For finding fault with them, He says:

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord,
and I will ratify a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers,
in the day of My having taken hold of their hand,
to lead them out of the land of Egypt,
because they did not continue in My covenant,
and I disregarded them, says the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, says the Lord,
putting My Laws into their mind,
and I will inscribe them upon their hearts;
and I will be to them God,
and they will be to Me for a people"


Heb 8

Ridiculous? Read the commentaries:

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/jeremiah/31-31.htm
In Jeremiah's day it was future. And, it is still future for Israel as they have not yet come into it.

Yes, ridiculous. No, I am not going to read a link. I will let your provide your own material. Why should I do your work.

Quantrill
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
786
113
#31
In Jeremiah's day it was future. And, it is still future for Israel as they have not yet come into it.

Yes, ridiculous. No, I am not going to read a link. I will let your provide your own material. Why should I do your work.

Quantrill
In Jeremiah's day it was future. In our days its past.

Hebrews is clear.

Do not read all the commentaries of the church to Jeremiah, if you do not want to, not my problem. But with your fleshy understanding of prophecies you are the one who is ridiculous. These things must be understood spiritually.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
988
300
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#32
In Jeremiah's day it was future. In our days its past.

Hebrews is clear.

Do not read all the commentaries of the church to Jeremiah, if you do not want to, not my problem. But with your fleshy understanding of prophecies you are the one who is ridiculous. These things must be understood spiritually.
I agree the New Covenant in Jeremiah's day was future. In our day it has already come. But, it hasn't yet come to Israel. It is still future for her.

I have read plenty of commentaries on your position. I disagree with it.

To say your view is 'spiritual' and mine is not is equally ridiculous. You want to use the term 'spiritual' so that you can 'spiritualize' Israel into meaning something it doesn't.

Quantrill
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
786
113
#33
I agree the New Covenant in Jeremiah's day was future. In our day it has already come. But, it hasn't yet come to Israel. It is still future for her.

I have read plenty of commentaries on your position. I disagree with it.

To say your view is 'spiritual' and mine is not is equally ridiculous. You want to use the term 'spiritual' so that you can 'spiritualize' Israel into meaning something it doesn't.

Quantrill
The spiritualizing the Old Testament Israel to be about gospel or about the church is not "equally ridiculous", because its what the New Testament authors did, its what the first Church did, its what the church for milleania did.

You are the one going the other way, the rabbinical, fleshy, judaistic, sionistic, modern, political, wordly or how do you wish to call it way, not me.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
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300
63
#34
The spiritualizing the Old Testament Israel to be about gospel or about the church is not "equally ridiculous", because its what the New Testament authors did. You are the one going the other way, the rabbinical, fleshy, judaistic way, not me.
Pay attention. What I said was equally ridiculous was your attempt to identify my position as fleshly and yours as spiritual.

The spirutalizing of Israel is ridiculous. The Church is not Israel. The New Testament writers never identified the Church as Israel. Christians over time started to identify the Church and tried to make the New Testament support it. Why? Because until 1948 there was no Israel. And some Christians didn't know how to deal with the promises in the Old Testament to Israel. So, what do they do? Spiritualize it. We the Church are Israel, they say. God is still faithful to His promises as He fulfills them in us, the true Israel, they say.
Unbelief is the root cause of spiritualizing Israel and making her the Church.

Quantrill
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
786
113
#35
The Church is not Israel. The New Testament writers never identified the Church as Israel...

Christians over time started to identify the Church and tried to make the New Testament support it. Why? Because until 1948 there was no Israel.

Basically, your theology is shaped by worldy politics and events. There is some state called "Israel" in the middle east and therefore you shift what the church taught for 2,000 years about it.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
988
300
63
#37
Basically, your theology is shaped by worldy politics and events. There is some state called "Israel" in the middle east and therefore you shift what the church taught for 2,000 years about it.
No, my theology is shaped by the Bible. Dispensationalism existed long before 1948. In other words, not all were guilty of unbelief. Many did believe God would be faithful to Israel as Scripture claims even though the outward circumstances appeared impossible.

Quantrill
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
290
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28
#38
With the tension around Israel what should Christians be doing.
Christians are the Israel of God. The present atheistic jews are no different from other atheists. A jew without Christ is no different from anyone else without Christ.
Certainly we have a great deal to thank the jews for. We can hope and pray that they will be converted and we should do so.
We should love the jews, but this does not extend to justifying them in their atrocities and state sponsored terrorism.
Modern Israel, as religious jews know, is nothing more than a man made attempt to do God’s work. The modern state of Israel is an a disgrace. Uncritical support from the US has had a corrupting influence. Israel does not seek a peaceful settlement with the Palestinians, it acts illegally and immorally in its inhumane treatment of the indigenous population, its settlement building and its use of a highly trained military to collectively punish a civilian population.
Christians would benefit enormously from reading a few histories about modern Israel and the zionist movement, since the 19th century.
If we think God will endorse evil, simply because jews are involved, forget it! God loves justice and does not show favouritism.
US support for Israel and the abandonment of any attempt to act as an honest broker is a shame on the US. It is a demonstration that rich American jews have corrupted the political process and greatly diminished the chances of peace and justice.
That Trump is an utter buffoon on the subject of Israel as in everything else should be obvious.
God gave the ancient jews the land of palestine as a perpetual possession. They lost the land for nearly 2000 years. It will be restored to them by God. The present Israeli state has no part in this.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
786
113
#39
No, my theology is shaped by the Bible. Dispensationalism existed long before 1948. In other words, not all were guilty of unbelief. Many did believe God would be faithful to Israel as Scripture claims even though the outward circumstances appeared impossible.

Quantrill
Some church fathers believed in some kind of massive conversion of Jews in the end of the world, but nothing similar to today's atheistic and militaristic state of Israel based by the UN resolution with inhabitants composed mostly of Russians.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
988
300
63
#40
Christians are the Israel of God. The present atheistic jews are no different from other atheists. A jew without Christ is no different from anyone else without Christ.
Certainly we have a great deal to thank the jews for. We can hope and pray that they will be converted and we should do so.
We should love the jews, but this does not extend to justifying them in their atrocities and state sponsored terrorism.
Modern Israel, as religious jews know, is nothing more than a man made attempt to do God’s work. The modern state of Israel is an a disgrace. Uncritical support from the US has had a corrupting influence. Israel does not seek a peaceful settlement with the Palestinians, it acts illegally and immorally in its inhumane treatment of the indigenous population, its settlement building and its use of a highly trained military to collectively punish a civilian population.
Christians would benefit enormously from reading a few histories about modern Israel and the zionist movement, since the 19th century.
If we think God will endorse evil, simply because jews are involved, forget it! God loves justice and does not show favouritism.
US support for Israel and the abandonment of any attempt to act as an honest broker is a shame on the US. It is a demonstration that rich American jews have corrupted the political process and greatly diminished the chances of peace and justice.
That Trump is an utter buffoon on the subject of Israel as in everything else should be obvious.
God gave the ancient jews the land of palestine as a perpetual possession. They lost the land for nearly 2000 years. It will be restored to them by God. The present Israeli state has no part in this.
The modern state of Israel is not yet returned to God. They are still under judgement. That is immaterial to the promises to Israel from God. But the Jews are back in the land, where God needed them to be in order to set in motion the last days events.

And one day, all Israel will turn back to God and receive Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

Quantrill