Should we stand with Israel?

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Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
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#41
Some church fathers believed in some massive conversion of Jews in the end of the world, but nothing similar to today's atheistic state of Israel.
One day all Israel will be saved. (Rom. 11:26)

Quantrill
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#42
Praying and praying some more... we know what is to come. So we pray. What more can we do?
And I would say pray for their salvation, Although we know they as a nation will not repent for some time. We shoudl always prayer for their comming to Christ in spite of that fact.
 
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#44
It comes from this Old Book I have.

Read a little bit and you will see that this was written to an Israel that was under judgement. And they have been under that judgement ever since.

Quantrill
Lev 26 is a good place to start.. I will punish you 7 more times for your sins......
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
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#45
a) you would have a very hard time to prove that today's Russian and atheistic Israel is actually the one of the Old Testament

b) God was never with unrepentant and unbelieving Israel, but always against it

So your claim has both historical and theological problems.

Trofimus
Grace and peace to you my dear Trofimus! Telling it like it is! Whatever next!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#46
One day all Israel will be saved. (Rom. 11:26)

Quantrill
Wrong quotation.

καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται

"a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved."
R 11:25-26

The way all israel will be saved is the way of hardening of the genetic Jews and incoming of spiritual Jews from Gentiles. This is the way.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#47
No it's not. Making Israel the Church here is ridiculous. Is Judah, Judah? Is Babylon, Babylon?

I did read the context. So? God is going to make a New Covenant with Israel. Pretty clear to me.

Both northern and southern Kingdoms are spoken of, the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

And Israel will be a political state located in the land promised to Abraham. Located in the area where Israel exists today.

Quantrill
I had to look and see who you were responding too.. Good luck man.
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
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#48
Wrong quotation.

καὶ οὕτως πᾶς Ἰσραὴλ σωθήσεται

"a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved."
R 11:25-26

The way all israel will be saved is the way of hardening of the genetic Jews and incoming of spiritual Jews from Gentiles. This is the way.
No, the quote was correctly given. And it's meaning evident.

Quantrill
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#50
No, the quote was correctly given. And it's meaning evident.

Quantrill
You can say it to yourself, but your opinion does not correspond with the Greek and with the correct translation.
 
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#51
The modern state of Israel is not yet returned to God. They are still under judgement. That is immaterial to the promises to Israel from God. But the Jews are back in the land, where God needed them to be in order to set in motion the last days events.

And one day, all Israel will turn back to God and receive Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

Quantrill
I love it when People say how sinful Israel is (A fact I will not deny) as if we should be suprised..

yet the bible states they will be this way until the time of Jacobs trouble comes. In whhich part they will then repent..

But of course before all this happens. The time of the gentile must come to its end..
 

Quantrill

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Sep 20, 2018
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#52
You can say it to yourself, but your opinion does not correspond with the Greek and with the correct translation.
(Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, George Ricker Berry) "and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written"

(Englishmans Greek New Testament) "and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written"

Seems as though it does correspond.

Quantrill
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#53
Thanks. Look forward to your input.

Quantrill
Thanks. Look forward to your input.

Quantrill
Well he likes to use a translation (in this way) but what way is Paul saying?

Is not paul talking about OT prophesies concerning these events? (He quotes the OT many times in these three chapters)

A partial hardening has occured to isreal (Ie, proving the context is Isreal. Not the church) until the fullness (completion) of the gentiles has come. (When is this) And in this way (as the events occure) All Isreal (ie, Isreal will not longer be hardened in part) will be saved.


And remember, His warning is for gentile believers to not be to proud, because they have been Given what israel had (control of Gods things) because just as Israel fell, We will fall also. In fact, it is fortold we will. Just as God used Isreal to get gentiles to repent, God will use Gentiles to get Israel to repent.
Just like the OT prophets fortold.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#54
(Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, George Ricker Berry) "and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written"

(Englishmans Greek New Testament) "and so all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written"

Seems as though it does correspond.

Quantrill
"So" means "in this way".

It does not mean "after that" nor "one day" nor "in the end of the world".

Its funny that I must explain this to a native English speaker ;-)
 

Quantrill

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2018
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#55
"So" means "in this way".

It does not mean "after that" nor "one day" nor "in the end of the world".

Funny I must explain this to English native speaker ;-)
So? See. It speaks to what has been said already.

(Rom. 11:26) "...as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" So, who is Jacob? What spiritual name does he have now?

(Psalm 14:7) "Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad."

Quantrill
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#56
Here is the problem with his interpretation (I think you can see by the way he mocked you why I have him on ignore.. He does not know how to talk to anyone)
Paul said clearly.

To gentiles

Do not be proud, but fear. As they were cut off because of unbelief and you were grafted in, Just as they fell, You may fall also. And God will cut you off. And they, if they repent, He will graft back in, And they being natural branches are EASIER to graft in than you , who are unnatural branches (paraphrase)

So Paul is warning the gentile church (not induviduals) do not get proud (sadly the church did not listen as we are witnessing even here in CC) and he even prophesies that Isreal will repent.

So lets take the passage in question in context.

Rom 11:
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.


Here Paul states WHEN the partial blindness of Isreal will end,

26 And so (in this way) all Israel will be saved,

Here paul states, What will happen when the partial blindness is removed, ie all isreal will repent.

Paul also says in what way, (“In this way”) or what will cause them to repent.

as it is written:

This is how it will happen (in this way)

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

Here paul Quotes Psalms

Ps 14: 7 -
7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord brings back the captivity of His people, Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.


27 For this is My covenant with them, (Israel, NOT THE CHURCH) When I take away their sins.”

Here paul quotes the prophet Isaiah,


Is 59: 15 Then the Lord saw it, and it displeased Him
That there was no justice.
16 He saw that there was no man,
And wondered that there was no intercessor;

Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him;
And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.
17 For He put on righteousness as a breastplate,
And a helmet of salvation on His head;
He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing,
And was clad with zeal as a cloak.
18 According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay,
Fury to His adversaries,
Recompense to His enemies;
The coastlands He will fully repay.

19 So shall they fear
The name of the Lord from the west,
And His glory from the rising of the sun;
When the enemy comes in like a flood,
The Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him.

20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,”
Says the Lord.

21 “As for Me,” says the Lord, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the Lord, “from this time and forevermore.”


So we see How (In this way) Israel will be saved.

1. They will be restored to their land, when the redeemer comes to Zion, and restores them
2.Israel will repent
3. God will punish the world who mistreated them, Vengence is mine says the lord
4. This is Gods covenant with ISRAEL. (NOT THE CHURCH)


The problem with people in interpreting romans 9 - 11 is they ignore the context of the OT passages paul continues to use, To the jews and people in pauls day who knew the OT. They would have understood exactly what Paul meant, because these OT passages would have immediately come to mind, with the context of each passage as written.
 

Quantrill

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Sep 20, 2018
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#58
Mar 14, 2011
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#59
Well, you can read "The Greatness of the Kingdom' by Alva J. MC Clain. In fact I believe everyone should have it in their library. It is one of the best to explain the Kingdom and the Church's and Israel's relation to it.

Quantrill
Or better yet, Just read the bible. Its not that hard to understand if we open our eyes and hearts

Never heard of that author though.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#60
Well, you can read "The Greatness of the Kingdom' by Alva J. MC Clain. In fact I believe everyone should have it in their library. It is one of the best to explain the Kingdom and the Church's and Israel's relation to it.

Quantrill
The material I posted is just a list of verses grouped by subtitles, no opinions and no deep theology of the author.