Should women be silent in church and wear head coverings?

[Nehemiah6]

No, it isn't! You've played with the order of the text. The order, as given is as follows:

Christ is the head of every man (every, as in plural)
The man is the head of the woman (specific singular)
God is the head of Christ.

God put it the way God wanted it. We don't get to fudge it to suit any agenda.

So you think this is "fudging"? There is no fudging in paraphrasing Scripture or from the top to the bottom, since in the end nothing changes. So let's look at that verse again to ensure that no one is fooled by your comments.

But I would have you know,
that the head of every man is Christ;
and the head of the woman is the man;
and the head of Christ is God.

Now let us simply rearrange this to begin with God as the Head of Christ, and then go down progressively:

and the head of Christ is God
that the head of every man is Christ;
and the head of the woman is the man

Has there been a change of doctrine? If not then you must be the one with the agenda.

 

[tourist]

In that case, he may have shrunk somewhat

Probably just a tad.

 

[Dino246]

So you think this is "fudging"? There is no fudging in going paraphrasing Scripture or from the top to the bottom, since in the end nothing changes. So let's look at that verse again to ensure that no one is fooled by your comments.

But I would have you know,
that the head of every man is Christ;
and the head of the woman is the man;
and the head of Christ is God.

Now let us simply rearrange this to begin with God as the Head of Christ, and then go down progressively:
and the head of Christ is God
that the head of every man is Christ;
and the head of the woman is the man

Has there been a change of doctrine? If not then you must be the one with the agenda.

I'm not the one who insists on changing the Scripture. Again I say that God put it the way we wanted it. By changing the order, you make your conclusion convenient. I suggest that the text is the way it is because your conclusion is not what God intended.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I'm not the one who insists on changing the Scripture. Again I say that God put it the way we wanted it. By changing the order, you make your conclusion convenient. I suggest that the text is the way it is because your conclusion is not what God intended.

Really? Well just read the rest of that passage, and you will note that that is EXACTLY what God intended:

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.


9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

 

[Angela53510]

He has a primacy in creation and he was not deceived. Thats what the text says...

Again, context requires we read the whole Bible, and not just pull one verse out of context. In fact, Adam was to blame for sin entering the world, because he deliberately disobeyed God. Eve was not even created, according to Genesis 2: when God gave the command not to eat of the tree.

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” Genesis 2:15-18

Eve was deceived, but Adam disobeyed, the worst sin of all!

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all menbecause all sinned." Romans 5:12

Who was that one man? Adam!

"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." Romans 5:14

The fact is, we are all in this together. women are not punished more or less than men for either the first sin, or the sin we all do in life.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slavenor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

Our hope is in Jesus Christ, who died on the cross and made atonement for sin. No one is deserving of salvation, but whoever calls on the name of the sordid will be saved!

"For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:13

It is not who sinned first, or worse, but ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God!

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:3

But, we have a Saviour! Let's look to him instead of this fruitless exercise in judging and blaming!

"Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen." Jude 24-25

 

[Zen]

I'm not the one who insists on changing the Scripture. Again I say that God put it the way we wanted it. By changing the order, you make your conclusion convenient. I suggest that the text is the way it is because your conclusion is not what God intended.

He didn't change scripture, he listed things that are in scripture.

 

[trofimus]

No, it isn't! You've played with the order of the text. The order, as given is as follows:

Christ is the head of every man (every, as in plural)
The man is the head of the woman (specific singular)
God is the head of Christ.

God put it the way God wanted it. We don't get to fudge it to suit any agenda.

Θέλω δὲ ὑμᾶς εἰδέναι ὅτι παντὸς ἀνδρὸς ἡ κεφαλὴ ὁ Χριστός ἐστιν, κεφαλὴ δὲ γυναικὸς ὁ ἀνήρ, κεφαλὴ δὲ τοῦ Χριστοῦ ὁ Θεός.

What do you mean by "specific singular"?

 

[trofimus]

Again, context requires we read the whole Bible, and not just pull one verse out of context. In fact, Adam was to blame for sin entering the world, because he deliberately disobeyed God. Eve was not even created, according to Genesis 2: when God gave the command not to eat of the tree.

"The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”18 Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” Genesis 2:15-18

Eve was deceived, but Adam disobeyed, the worst sin of all!

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all menbecause all sinned." Romans 5:12

Who was that one man? Adam!

"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." Romans 5:14

The fact is, we are all in this together. women are not punished more or less than men for either the first sin, or the sin we all do in life.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slavenor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

Our hope is in Jesus Christ, who died on the cross and made atonement for sin. No one is deserving of salvation, but whoever calls on the name of the sordid will be saved!

"For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Romans 10:13

It is not who sinned first, or worse, but ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God!

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:3

But, we have a Saviour! Let's look to him instead of this fruitless exercise in judging and blaming!

"Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen." Jude 24-25

I just said that "Man has a primacy in creation and he was not deceived. Thats what the text says..."

I do not see you are contradicting it, if I understand you right... so, what is the problem?

 

[Dino246]

Θέλω δὲ ὑμᾶς εἰδέναι ὅτι παντὸς ἀνδρὸς ἡ κεφαλὴ ὁ Χριστός ἐστιν, κεφαλὴ δὲ γυναικὸς ὁ ἀνήρ, κεφαλὴ δὲ τοῦ Χριστοῦ ὁ Θεός.

Why do you mean by "specific singular"?

"The" man is the head of "the" woman. In English, "the" is a specific article (where "a" or "an" are non-specific articles). "Man" and "woman" are singular, not plural, when accompanied by "the".

 

[Dino246]

He didn't change scripture, he listed things that are in scripture.

He changed the order of phrases; that is changing Scripture. Listing them out of order, and making a conclusion from the manipulated text, is not sound exegesis. If it were, we could make the text say literally anything.

 

[Zen]

He changed the order of phrases; that is changing Scripture. Listing them out of order, and making a conclusion from the manipulated text, is not sound exegesis. If it were, we could make the text say literally anything.

God created Eve. God created Adam.

Both of these things are true. I changed the order and it literally doesn't matter.

 

[trofimus]

"The" man is the head of "the" woman. In English, "the" is a specific article (where "a" or "an" are non-specific articles). "Man" and "woman" are singular, not plural, when accompanied by "the".

I do not see this definite article before "gynaikos"... so why do you think it should be translated "the woman"?

 

[Dino246]

God created Eve. God created Adam.

Both of these things are true. I changed the order and it literally doesn't matter.

It's one thing to take non-proximal verses out of order and draw no particular conclusion; it's quite another to take proximal verses out of order and then claim that the re-ordered verses say something specific. Nehemiah6 presented the verses, which occur together, in an order other than how they appear in Scripture. He concluded that there is a hierarchy implied in those verses, as he presented them.

Had he simply presented the verses as given in Scripture, and made his conclusion, I would have no issue with his presentation. He could simply say, "yes, I changed them, and it does matter" but he has defended his manipulation, as have you, by saying that it doesn't matter. I call that scripture-twisting.

I do not see this definite article before "gynaikos"... so why do you think it should be translated "the woman"?

It's translated that way in both the KJV and the NASB. I would concede that point, as I'm not a Greek expert by any means.

 

[trofimus]

It's translated that way in both the KJV and the NASB. I would concede that point, as I'm not a Greek expert by any means.

I am not expert neither, but I am also no expert on English and still I can understand concepts or reasons... we do not have to have doctorates or titles in front and behind our names to discuss this

"But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God."
ESV

"But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ."
NET

You are right that most of English translations added "the" before "woman". But apparently not all... I have no idea why the majority added it.
Its not in the text.

I checked all Greek variations, I checked also critical apparatus in Nestlé Aland 27, but nothing, no definite article.

 

[kaylagrl]

He has a primacy in creation and he was not deceived. Thats what the text says...

​It also says that Adam sinned...

 

[kaylagrl]

God created Eve. God created Adam.

Both of these things are true. I changed the order and it literally doesn't matter.

Ya,it does,God created Eve from Adam.

 

[Zen]

He concluded that there is a hierarchy implied in those verses, as he presented them.

God
Christ
Man
Woman

I just listed the hierarchy. I didn't change scripture, add to it or take from it.

Are you not able to discern? His intention is not to deceive you. It seems like you're simply being argumentative for the sake of it.

 

[Dino246]

God
Christ
Man
Woman

I just listed the hierarchy. I didn't change scripture, add to it or take from it.

Are you not able to discern? His intention is not to deceive you. It seems like you're simply being argumentative for the sake of it.

You presented concepts from Scripture in a non-scriptural order. Just stick with the order as presented in the Scripture (Christ-man, man-woman, God-Christ); not the way you want it to be.

To you and Nehemiah6: since you have both made this assertion, it falls to you to explain why God did not have Paul write it in the way you both present it (God-Christ, Christ-man, man-woman, in that order).

 

[trofimus]

You presented concepts from Scripture in a non-scriptural order. Just stick with the order as presented in the Scripture (Christ-man, man-woman, God-Christ); not the way you want it to be.

To you and Nehemiah6: since you have both made this assertion, it falls to you to explain why God did not have Paul write it in the way you both present it (God-Christ, Christ-man, man-woman, in that order).

Whats the difference, logically?

 

[Dino246]

Whats the difference, logically?

I believe that the order as given in Scripture is significant, and that it suggests something other than a direct hierarchy. I don't have an answer for what that is though. Changing the order to make it "clearly" support a complementarian agenda is unacceptable.