SIGNS AND WONDERS

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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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#61
First, that has nothing to do with the OP.

Second, "not necessary" does not equate in any way to "never happens". Try applying some elementary logic to your views.
I'm saying we need to look at what the bible says . And its clear these signs accompanied those that needed confirmation of their message...to the Jews. Its not happening today in that same way . I don't say its ceased Just that its not arbitrary. Its for the jews . Not Gentiles .
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#62
Yes, of course nothing wrong. I usually try to keep in mind what Paul instructs us in Romans 8 regarding our attitude when we are sick

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
And Paul himself save because he saw Jesus on the way to Damascus.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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#63
The question I have for you is why they happen and why do they happen today ?
As I understand it for anyone, if they have faith in God it will happen. Faith doesn't question, It just does. When I have prayed for someone and they get healed, I just know that is what is going to happen.

A 4 Y.O. doesn't delve into the theology of it. They put their faith into action and lo and behold what they were expecting happens. If you doubt, it is very likely nothing happens. These four-year-olds prayed because they expected something to happen because they had seen miracles happen before so to them it was an everyday occurrence and there was nothing in their theology that said a 4 y.o could not pray for a miracle.

I am sure it helped growing up in an environment where miracles were the norm, not the exception.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#64
As I understand it for anyone, if they have faith in God it will happen. Faith doesn't question, It just does. When I have prayed for someone and they get healed, I just know that is what is going to happen.

A 4 Y.O. doesn't delve into the theology of it. They put their faith into action and lo and behold what they were expecting happens. If you doubt, it is very likely nothing happens. These four-year-olds prayed because they expected something to happen because they had seen miracles happen before so to them it was an everyday occurrence and there was nothing in their theology that said a 4 y.o could not pray for a miracle.

I am sure it helped growing up in an environment where miracles were the norm, not the exception.
Why do you think Paul advise Timothy to drink wine for his illness? 1 Timothy 5:23

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Why not just declare "by his stripes you are healed"?
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,378
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#65
Why do you think Paul advise Timothy to drink wine for his illness? 1 Timothy 5:23

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Why not just declare "by his stripes you are healed"?
What Paul told Timothy is irrelevant to my story of what happened in Burundi. In every situation that I have read about where miracles do happen, I have read that some miracles do not happen. God is sovereign so he decides who gets healed and who doesn't. It is not for me or anyone else to question why that is the case.

Jesus healed many, many people, but there were some people he did not heal. Work that one out.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
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#66
Sad to say, but Africa is leading the pack in abuse, the false prosperity gospel has taken hold, as wealthy church leaders drive around in luxury cars, living in luxury homes, flying private jets, as people starve?.
That is not the truth. The truth is SOME of Africa is leading the pack in abuse. It is quite wrong to tar everyone with the same brush. In Burundi, where my story takes place, they haven't got two cents to rub together.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,378
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#67
The skepticism is nothing new. It's not like this was not described or addressed in the Bible:

"Master, we saw another casting the devils out in Your name, and we forbade him, because he followed not with us" "Forbid him not, for there is no man who does a miracle in my name that can soon afterward speak evil of Me", And also: "Forbid him not, for he who is not against us is for us". In short, God has chosen his way of operation long ago. He will use everyone He can, and sort out the details later.

Jesus remarked, when questioned if His healing was from God:
"Satan cannot cast out satan, for his kingdom will not stand"
We should have this in mind. When someone gets healed, satan cannot be the one who healed them. What a terrible thing to suggest, that healing can come from satan, don't we know to make a difference between the Spirit's fruits and demonic fruits? Vehemently saying things like these is sure to invoke condemnation. These people think they know the Spirit but they don't, and when they finally die and meet Him for real whose presence so repulsed them on earth, what do you think happens?

Also Jesus said:
"When therefore ye who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more the Father in Heaven will give good things to those who ask Him?"
So we don't ask for a fish, and get a snake. We don't ask for bread, to get a stone. We don't sincerely pray to God to help us only to get a demonic "not of God" response, because it's not how this works, Jesus said it's not how it works, and people who still doubt need to re-read their Bibles. God always hears. Always helps. It's only that His help doesn't always come in the form and on time schedule we imagined. But sometimes it does, though!

But the OP didn't even specify anything about any church, or pastor, or their beliefs or legitimacy. They simply stated that poor people come to church and pray for healing for hours and they have many breakthroughs through faith and prayer. Why would our reflex be to doubt that, or believe that these desperate people come and ask for a fish and Father gives them a snake?
Top stuff!!
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#68
What Paul told Timothy is irrelevant to my story of what happened in Burundi. In every situation that I have read about where miracles do happen, I have read that some miracles do not happen. God is sovereign so he decides who gets healed and who doesn't. It is not for me or anyone else to question why that is the case.

Jesus healed many, many people, but there were some people he did not heal. Work that one out.
It’s relevant to this topic because Paul had the sign gift healing in acts. His handkerchiefs could heal

But when he wrote Timothy, he was reaching the end of his ministry and life.
 

mustaphadrink

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2013
1,378
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#69
It’s relevant to this topic because Paul had the sign gift healing in acts. His handkerchiefs could heal

But when he wrote Timothy, he was reaching the end of his ministry and life.
I will say it again. It is not relevant because Paul was not called to minister in Burundi. And age has no relevance to signs and wonders being performed.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,868
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#70
What Paul told Timothy is irrelevant to my story of what happened in Burundi. In every situation that I have read about where miracles do happen, I have read that some miracles do not happen. God is sovereign so he decides who gets healed and who doesn't. It is not for me or anyone else to question why that is the case.

Jesus healed many, many people, but there were some people he did not heal. Work that one out.
Jesus healed all those that came to him . He wasn't forcing the healing . His ministry was to demonstrate he was who he said he was . To Israel . They should have recognised the signs .
luke 7
20¶When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?
21And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight.
22¶Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
23And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,868
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#71
unfortunately it often gets taught in Christendom that we may not have enough faith to be healed . Or that someone is hindered by lack of faith.
Mark 6 gets used as a example as if the reason he could not do miracles at certain times was because of their unbelief.
4¶But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

But notice the point isn't about lots of people coming to Jesus. Only a few CAME ,and those few that CAME , were healed ,because Jesus laid his actual hands on them . Meaning only a few CAME to Jesus. And notice they are healed immediately and its nothing to do with an amount of faith they did or did not have. The Point is about only a few came to Jesus as apposed to in other places many CAME . It s not saying lots of people came but only the ones who had lots of faith were healed . In certain towns ect he was not seen with honour .
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#72
I will say it again. It is not relevant because Paul was not called to minister in Burundi. And age has no relevance to signs and wonders being performed.
Looks like your definition of signs and wonders is very broad. I think what you are actually referring to are miracles.

Yes, there are still miraculous healings today, but they are not signs. A sign point to something.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#73
I believe God have a reason why He make miracle. I listen a lot of testimonies from Indonesian Muslim, come to Christ because miracle. I know healing miracle not always happen, up to the Lord.
If every time miracle healing happen, we never die, if one kill apostle, God rise Him, than Paul still with us now.

Miracle have reason, and I believe the reason is to make us believe in Jesus so we save.
After we save, is better for us to die and go to heaven than we always heal and never die.
There is a time for us to die and be with Jesus.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
17,511
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#74
I'm saying we need to look at what the bible says . And its clear these signs accompanied those that needed confirmation of their message...to the Jews. Its not happening today in that same way . I don't say its ceased Just that its not arbitrary. Its for the jews . Not Gentiles .
You're drawing conclusions from narrative passages, not from didactic passages. Nothing in Scripture says that the Jews needed confirmation while Gentiles didn't, nor that healings were for Jews but not Gentiles.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
9,868
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#75
You're drawing conclusions from narrative passages, not from didactic passages. Nothing in Scripture says that the Jews needed confirmation while Gentiles didn't, nor that healings were for Jews but not Gentiles.
Jesus and the apostles ministry was Jewish and to Jews. The bible says ' Jews seek after a sign ' . God's dealing with the Jews has always been through signs . Think moses ect . Jesus confirms his ministry to the Jews with signs and miracles. Jewish signs and miracles. Not one miracle or sign he did was random or arbitrary. Gentiles are not given signs and miracles as confirming the message . Jews everytime .
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
17,511
9,594
113
#77
Jesus and the apostles ministry was Jewish and to Jews. The bible says ' Jews seek after a sign ' . God's dealing with the Jews has always been through signs . Think moses ect . Jesus confirms his ministry to the Jews with signs and miracles. Jewish signs and miracles. Not one miracle or sign he did was random or arbitrary. Gentiles are not given signs and miracles as confirming the message . Jews everytime .
Again, your conclusion is incorrect because you are not applying sound hermeneutical methods. I suggest you take a class or read a good book on the subject.

God's dealings with the Jews included signs but was never limited to signs. Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar were gentile kings, but God showed Himself to them through signs. Those events trump your position. Nothing in Scripture states or clearly implies that Gentiles are not given signs.

Paul did indeed write, "The Jews look after a sign". However, right after that, he wrote, "but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block". In other words, God doesn't respond with signs just because Jews want signs. Maybe instead of taking isolated verses out of their context in order to support your position, learn how to take the words of Scripture in their context and you will have some hope of drawing sound conclusions.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,079
2,397
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#78
Again, your conclusion is incorrect because you are not applying sound hermeneutical methods. I suggest you take a class or read a good book on the subject.

God's dealings with the Jews included signs but was never limited to signs. Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar were gentile kings, but God showed Himself to them through signs. Those events trump your position. Nothing in Scripture states or clearly implies that Gentiles are not given signs.

Paul did indeed write, "The Jews look after a sign". However, right after that, he wrote, "but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block". In other words, God doesn't respond with signs just because Jews want signs. Maybe instead of taking isolated verses out of their context in order to support your position, learn how to take the words of Scripture in their context and you will have some hope of drawing sound conclusions.
1 Corinthians14:22KJV

Tongues Is Gods "Sign" to all the unsaved world.

1 Corinthians 14:22KJV
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
7,186
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#79
As I understand it for anyone, if they have faith in God it will happen. Faith doesn't question, It just does. When I have prayed for someone and they get healed, I just know that is what is going to happen.

A 4 Y.O. doesn't delve into the theology of it. They put their faith into action and lo and behold what they were expecting to happen. If you doubt, it is very likely nothing happens. These four-year-olds prayed because they expected something to happen because they had seen miracles happen before so to them it was an everyday occurrence and there was nothing in their theology that said a 4 y.o could not pray for a miracle.

I am sure it helped growing up in an environment where miracles were the norm, not the exception.
Faith also asks God for and believes HE can. Why does sign & wonders happen and why they happen today is seen in the word of God.


Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

“The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.” – Acts 15:12

Rom 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

The Living God does them because a dead god can't. The very works God does testifies to HIM as being alive!
 
L

lenna

Guest
#80
Jesus and the apostles ministry was Jewish and to Jews. The bible says ' Jews seek after a sign ' . God's dealing with the Jews has always been through signs . Think moses ect . Jesus confirms his ministry to the Jews with signs and miracles. Jewish signs and miracles. Not one miracle or sign he did was random or arbitrary. Gentiles are not given signs and miracles as confirming the message . Jews everytime .

here we go again

yeah yeah yeah blah blah blah

let's all remember you do not believe the gospels, book of Acts and a few more books, have anything to say in the present tense to us dummies here

oh maybe here and there Jesus said something relevant, but of course we have that lovely saying far too many deceived folks like to mouth:

'not everything Jesus said is to us, but everything is for us'

and of course, there is no doctrine to be found in Acts because it is only a history

believe much? I don't think so

for those with tender ears, please forgive my sarcasm but this lie going the round in Christian circles is straight from ...not heaven