So, I'm full of anti-wof talking points, prejudice and misinformed?

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bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,007
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0
#1
This is what lancelot accused me of when I posted to joaniemarie the heretical views of kenneth hagin who in turn passed down these views to kenneth copeland who's a real "peach" of a heretic.

So lancelot, the following is what joaniemarie sain in a number of her post regarding a statement of faith. Point #3 says, "We believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life as He walked among men, demonstrated the authority and power of God in works and speech, died on the cross, rose from the dead on the third day, (Now pay attention to this part lancelot?) and is now seated at the right hand of God HAVING ACCOMPLISHED ALL THAT IS NECESSARY FOR MAN'S SALVATION." Did you cathch that lancelot?

The following is what some wof heretical teaches teach to this day. kenneth copeland in one of his tapes said to his audience, "You don't know what happend at the cross." Here is what happened according to some of these wof teachers.

"Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid our price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God" (Frederick K.C. Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger, June 1990, p. 7).
"Ladies and gentlemen, the serpent is a symbol of Satan. Jesus Christ knew the only way he would stop Satan was by becoming one in nature with him. You say, What did you say? What blasphemy is this? No, you hear this! He did not take my sin; He became my sin" (Benny Hinn, Benny Hinn broadcast on TBN, December 15, 1990).
"When Jesus cried "It is finished!" He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne. He was referring to the Abrahamic Covenant Jesus' death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption" (Kenneth Copeland, "Jesus - Our Lord of Glory", Believer's Voice of Victory, April, 1982, p. 3).
"The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at that moment that He did so He cried, `My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?' You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? That use to bug me. I said, `Why in the world would you want to put a snake up there - the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb on that pole?' And the Lord said, `Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross.' He (Jesus) said, `I accepted in my own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off'" (Kenneth Copeland, What Happened From the Cross to the Throne? cassette tape, Kenneth Copeland Ministries, parenthesis mine).


So I ask you lancelot, do you believe what these teaches said happened to Jesus Christ? So tell me how I am "misinformed" or "prejudice?" And btw, don't give me the lame excuse that I'm taking them out of context. I have many of their complete tapes, cd's, books and pahphlets i.e primary sources from way back to the early 1980"s. PS: I'm only scratching the surface on this stuff. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,827
169
63
#2
Am not Lancelot Bluto...but this scripture came to mind.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
 

AuntieAnt

Senior Member
Feb 23, 2016
3,908
333
83
#3
Sorry Brother Bluto, I'm confused and don't understand what the question or topic is here. (Which isn't unusual for me. hehe :rolleyes: ) Can you please explain? Who are you quoting , who are you addressing (Lancelot or other CC members?), are you for or against WOF, and who is accusing who of being prejudice or misinformed?

Also, I never really considered this scripture in that context before, Jesus actually becoming sin.

II Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him
.

Can you please explain what you are saying the Word is telling us here? Thanks brother!
:)
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,007
32
0
#4
This is what lancelot accused me of when I posted to joaniemarie the heretical views of kenneth hagin who in turn passed down these views to kenneth copeland who's a real "peach" of a heretic.

So lancelot, the following is what joaniemarie sain in a number of her post regarding a statement of faith. Point #3 says, "We believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life as He walked among men, demonstrated the authority and power of God in works and speech, died on the cross, rose from the dead on the third day, (Now pay attention to this part lancelot?) and is now seated at the right hand of God HAVING ACCOMPLISHED ALL THAT IS NECESSARY FOR MAN'S SALVATION." Did you cathch that lancelot?

The following is what some wof heretical teaches teach to this day. kenneth copeland in one of his tapes said to his audience, "You don't know what happend at the cross." Here is what happened according to some of these wof teachers.

"Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid our price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God" (Frederick K.C. Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger, June 1990, p. 7).
"Ladies and gentlemen, the serpent is a symbol of Satan. Jesus Christ knew the only way he would stop Satan was by becoming one in nature with him. You say, What did you say? What blasphemy is this? No, you hear this! He did not take my sin; He became my sin" (Benny Hinn, Benny Hinn broadcast on TBN, December 15, 1990).
"When Jesus cried "It is finished!" He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne. He was referring to the Abrahamic Covenant Jesus' death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption" (Kenneth Copeland, "Jesus - Our Lord of Glory", Believer's Voice of Victory, April, 1982, p. 3).
"The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at that moment that He did so He cried, `My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?' You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? That use to bug me. I said, `Why in the world would you want to put a snake up there - the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb on that pole?' And the Lord said, `Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross.' He (Jesus) said, `I accepted in my own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off'" (Kenneth Copeland, What Happened From the Cross to the Throne? cassette tape, Kenneth Copeland Ministries, parenthesis mine).


So I ask you lancelot, do you believe what these teaches said happened to Jesus Christ? So tell me how I am "misinformed" or "prejudice?" And btw, don't give me the lame excuse that I'm taking them out of context. I have many of their complete tapes, cd's, books and pahphlets i.e primary sources from way back to the early 1980"s. PS: I'm only scratching the surface on this stuff. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Ok let me try and unconfuse some of you. The following is what I posted to joainmarie which would be post #410. Here it is.

Healing in the Atonement?

Originally Posted by bluto

You might want to read the following first because not everything is what it seems to be especially when it comes to so-called Word of faith ministries. Kenneth Hagin - General Teachings/Activities :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto




Full of anti-WoF talking points based on religious prejudice and misinformation. I'd be happy to discuss any particulars, but we might need another thread as it would require a lot of commentary.

lancelot posted to me the above. "Full of anti-Wof talking points etc." I then decided to start another thread addressing lancelot's concerns with proof. Any more questions? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto​
 
Sep 14, 2017
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#5
Lancelot is pretty adamant about being WOF, & yeah, he dislikes those that opposes it.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
9,899
699
113
#6
Is Lancelot the guy that thought he was being persecuted for being WoF? No, that was Know1.

So strange that you can post the exegetical and Biblical truth, and it comes out being “anti WoF talking points.”

By the way, I never read that link the first time around reading this post, or the old one! I certainly will now!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,491
406
83
#7
Am not Lancelot Bluto...but this scripture came to mind.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Yes, this is certainly Scripture, but it must be interpreted in the light of all Gospel truth. The WOF false teachers have perverted this and do teach what Bluto has posted. Here are the errors of their doctrine regarding the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross:

1. They have failed to interpret "hell" correctly as mentioned in Acts 2:27: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. That word is the Greek word "hades" and should have been transliterated as Hades. That would have avoided a lot of confusion. It refers to what Christ said about being in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. Hades is in the "lower parts of the earth" and the moment Christ died, His soul and spirit went to Hades to "preach" (proclaim victory) to the spirits in prison. However, the WOF preachers have failed to study the matter and simply assumed that this is a reference to the Lake of Fire.

2. When Christ cried out loudly from the Cross "It is finished", He had indeed finished the work of redemption. He had paid the full penalty for the sins of the whole world. He had become the Propitiation (satisfactory sacrifice) for the sins of the whole world. But the WOF false teaching is that He DID NOT finished His work of redemption at the Cross but went into the Lake of Fire to suffer the agonies of eternal Hell. That is false.

3. As shown above they claim that Christ took "the sin nature of Satan". That is utter nonsense. When the Bible says that "He was made Sin for us", it must be interpreted in the light of Isaiah 53 -- that God the Father laid up the Lamb of God "the iniquity of us all". All of our sins and our guilt were laid upon His holy soul, therefore "He made His soul and offering for sin". And yes, the Brazen Serpent represented Christ taking upon Himself the sins of the world -- collectively called "the SIN of the world by John the Baptist -- so that He would pay the just penalty for our sins through His sufferings (body, soul, and spirit), His shed blood, and His death on the Cross. Why would He take the sin nature of Satan when He was actually destroying the power of sin, death, Hades, Hell, and Satan on the Cross?

4. This is not the only false teaching of the WOF preachers. But it is sufficiently distorted from Bible truth to call it heretical teaching.
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
7,474
309
83
#8
kenneth hagin = one of the most demonic, spell-binding', so called preachers of the century!!!

watching some of his t=wee programs and those whom he spelled, including KC, is the
personification of 'pure witch-craft'...
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,007
32
0
#9
Am not Lancelot Bluto...but this scripture came to mind.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Do you know what that statement means stones? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,084
155
63
#10
Lancelot is pretty adamant about being WOF, & yeah, he dislikes those that opposes it.

Actually., Lancalot is pretty adamant on the truth and seeks to bring it out and speak it out in subjects concerning Bible interpretation. And especially when there are misconceptions and wrong 2nd 3rd and 4th re-written ideas of what word of faith really means by those who are not word of faith or who know nothing about word of faith from a proper perspective. Have never seen Lancalot dislike anyone or be disrespectful to anyone if they disagree with him. Or "oppose" him as you say Speak2.

Just as their are many different Baptist beliefs in denominations... there are many different word of faith beliefs in denominations. Just because a bunch of people agree with each others opinions ....this does not a truth make.

It often will take time to learn to listen. And that is a lost art these days. Many prefer to jump to assumptions and conclusions based on things they've "known" for years. We all do it and we all need to learn a better way. (the new and living way) Just take a look at American politics. Prime example that should make us all shudder as Christians and show us not to be that way.
 
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joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,084
155
63
#11
Just found one of the videos by Ron Saunders and will post it here. If you want to discuss this., then you need to listen to have some kind of common ground. Ron Saunders is clear on his investigation and what he has learned. So give a listen and then give your opinion about what is said about word of faith.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzGEV5y17Iw&t=54s
 

Lancelot

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2015
165
11
18
#12
bluto - I wasn't aware that you wrote all of that stuff. I was just commenting on what you linked to. Sorry if I offended you, but I've seen a lot of these talking points before and have been rebutting them for many years.

Let's start with this claim:
Hagin taught the following heresies: Receiving healing, just as receiving salvation, is simply a matter of appropriating what already belongs to us (6/90); healing is included in the gospel (8/92); God does not afflict people with sickness and disease (12/90); he (Hagin) went to heaven and talked with his sister (6/91); Jesus appeared to him in a vision in 1950 (8/91); he once went to hell in an out-of-body experience (9/91); he does not believe in sickness and disease (7/92); it is always God's will to heal the sick (12/92); believers have a legal and redemptive right to divine healing (1/93)

Yes, Kenneth Hagin said those things (except for the part about him not believing in sickness and disease), but I don't see how you can characterize them as heresy, unless you define heresy as any teaching you don't agree with. Most people consider heresy to be a teaching that violates essential doctrines of the Christian faith, and none of those do.

Then there's this:
"The Positive Confession movement is a charismatic form of Christian Science."
First of all, the movement is the Word of Faith Movement, or the Faith Movement, not the Positive Confession Movement. Kenneth Hagin never taught positive confession, but the faith confession of the Word of God. You don't just arbitrarily decide what you want and confess it to be yours. You have to have a biblical basis for it in order to have biblical faith. Also, the Word of Faith has ZERO to do with Christian Science, which came from New Thought. The Word of Faith teaching holds to all of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith, while Christian Science and New Thought don't.

Next we have this:
Hagin went a step further, from heresy to blasphemy, when he said, "The believer is as much an incarnation of God as Jesus Christ"

This statement wasn't teaching deification, but was emphasizing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Hagin was actually quoting Kenyon here, and when Kenyon said it in his book "The Father and His Family" he was using the word "incarnation" as a reference to God the Holy Spirit indwelling our bodies of flesh, and that's what "incarnation" means - God in the Flesh.
https://goo.gl/X5Y8av

There's no heresy or blasphemy there .... just an out of context quote to misrepresent the meaning behind what he was saying.

Then there's this:
Hagin obviously did not believe God is sovereign. Jesus, according to Word-Faith theology, has no authority on earth, having delegated it all to the church.

When a person delegates authority, that doesn't mean that they relinquish all of their authority. It means that they entrust to others certain tasks to carry out under their authority. That's Management 101. It doesn't have anything to do with the sovereignty of God. It's just a teaching on how Jesus, the head of the church, is overseeing the fulfillment of the Great Commission.

Then there's the 30 year old allegations of Hagin plagiarizing Kenyon, which are easily debunked by reading what Kenyon's website says about the matter.
Plagiarism of EW Kenyons

I'm not even half way through the page, but in the interest of time and brevity I'll leave it at that. I think you get the idea.
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,221
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#13
Am not Lancelot Bluto...but this scripture came to mind.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
You have no Savior if your Jesus was sinful. This is how to understand that verse:

For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, ...
2 Corinthians 5:21 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/2co.5.21.NLT

God just TREATED Jesus in the way we deserve to be punished. The animals sacrificed and the scape goats never were actually sinful but only TREATED as sin. They were "made to be sin" or put another way, they were a sin offering. Jesus was always the spotless lamb even as He hung and died on the cross.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#14
bluto - I wasn't aware that you wrote all of that stuff. I was just commenting on what you linked to. Sorry if I offended you, but I've seen a lot of these talking points before and have been rebutting them for many years.

Let's start with this claim:
Hagin taught the following heresies: Receiving healing, just as receiving salvation, is simply a matter of appropriating what already belongs to us (6/90); healing is included in the gospel (8/92); God does not afflict people with sickness and disease (12/90); he (Hagin) went to heaven and talked with his sister (6/91); Jesus appeared to him in a vision in 1950 (8/91); he once went to hell in an out-of-body experience (9/91); he does not believe in sickness and disease (7/92); it is always God's will to heal the sick (12/92); believers have a legal and redemptive right to divine healing (1/93)

Yes, Kenneth Hagin said those things (except for the part about him not believing in sickness and disease), but I don't see how you can characterize them as heresy, unless you define heresy as any teaching you don't agree with. Most people consider heresy to be a teaching that violates essential doctrines of the Christian faith, and none of those do.

Then there's this:
"The Positive Confession movement is a charismatic form of Christian Science."
First of all, the movement is the Word of Faith Movement, or the Faith Movement, not the Positive Confession Movement. Kenneth Hagin never taught positive confession, but the faith confession of the Word of God. You don't just arbitrarily decide what you want and confess it to be yours. You have to have a biblical basis for it in order to have biblical faith. Also, the Word of Faith has ZERO to do with Christian Science, which came from New Thought. The Word of Faith teaching holds to all of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith, while Christian Science and New Thought don't.

Next we have this:
Hagin went a step further, from heresy to blasphemy, when he said, "The believer is as much an incarnation of God as Jesus Christ"

This statement wasn't teaching deification, but was emphasizing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Hagin was actually quoting Kenyon here, and when Kenyon said it in his book "The Father and His Family" he was using the word "incarnation" as a reference to God the Holy Spirit indwelling our bodies of flesh, and that's what "incarnation" means - God in the Flesh.
https://goo.gl/X5Y8av

There's no heresy or blasphemy there .... just an out of context quote to misrepresent the meaning behind what he was saying.

Then there's this:
Hagin obviously did not believe God is sovereign. Jesus, according to Word-Faith theology, has no authority on earth, having delegated it all to the church.

When a person delegates authority, that doesn't mean that they relinquish all of their authority. It means that they entrust to others certain tasks to carry out under their authority. That's Management 101. It doesn't have anything to do with the sovereignty of God. It's just a teaching on how Jesus, the head of the church, is overseeing the fulfillment of the Great Commission.

Then there's the 30 year old allegations of Hagin plagiarizing Kenyon, which are easily debunked by reading what Kenyon's website says about the matter.
Plagiarism of EW Kenyons

I'm not even half way through the page, but in the interest of time and brevity I'll leave it at that. I think you get the idea.
Nice job there ignoring the Satanic Jesus doctrine bluto started off with.
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,221
34
48
#15
bluto - I wasn't aware that you wrote all of that stuff. I was just commenting on what you linked to. Sorry if I offended you, but I've seen a lot of these talking points before and have been rebutting them for many years.

Let's start with this claim:
Hagin taught the following heresies: Receiving healing, just as receiving salvation, is simply a matter of appropriating what already belongs to us (6/90); healing is included in the gospel (8/92); God does not afflict people with sickness and disease (12/90); he (Hagin) went to heaven and talked with his sister (6/91); Jesus appeared to him in a vision in 1950 (8/91); he once went to hell in an out-of-body experience (9/91); he does not believe in sickness and disease (7/92); it is always God's will to heal the sick (12/92); believers have a legal and redemptive right to divine healing (1/93)

Yes, Kenneth Hagin said those things (except for the part about him not believing in sickness and disease), but I don't see how you can characterize them as heresy, unless you define heresy as any teaching you don't agree with. Most people consider heresy to be a teaching that violates essential doctrines of the Christian faith, and none of those do.

Then there's this:
"The Positive Confession movement is a charismatic form of Christian Science."
First of all, the movement is the Word of Faith Movement, or the Faith Movement, not the Positive Confession Movement. Kenneth Hagin never taught positive confession, but the faith confession of the Word of God. You don't just arbitrarily decide what you want and confess it to be yours. You have to have a biblical basis for it in order to have biblical faith. Also, the Word of Faith has ZERO to do with Christian Science, which came from New Thought. The Word of Faith teaching holds to all of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith, while Christian Science and New Thought don't.

Next we have this:
Hagin went a step further, from heresy to blasphemy, when he said, "The believer is as much an incarnation of God as Jesus Christ"

This statement wasn't teaching deification, but was emphasizing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Hagin was actually quoting Kenyon here, and when Kenyon said it in his book "The Father and His Family" he was using the word "incarnation" as a reference to God the Holy Spirit indwelling our bodies of flesh, and that's what "incarnation" means - God in the Flesh.
https://goo.gl/X5Y8av

There's no heresy or blasphemy there .... just an out of context quote to misrepresent the meaning behind what he was saying.

Then there's this:
Hagin obviously did not believe God is sovereign. Jesus, according to Word-Faith theology, has no authority on earth, having delegated it all to the church.

When a person delegates authority, that doesn't mean that they relinquish all of their authority. It means that they entrust to others certain tasks to carry out under their authority. That's Management 101. It doesn't have anything to do with the sovereignty of God. It's just a teaching on how Jesus, the head of the church, is overseeing the fulfillment of the Great Commission.

Then there's the 30 year old allegations of Hagin plagiarizing Kenyon, which are easily debunked by reading what Kenyon's website says about the matter.
Plagiarism of EW Kenyons

I'm not even half way through the page, but in the interest of time and brevity I'll leave it at that. I think you get the idea.
The word "incarnation" is a theological term coined from John 1:14 for God becoming a human:

So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.
John 1:14 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/jhn.1.14.NLT

So, WOF is teaching blasphemy to say they are an incarnation of God just as Jesus was. And when you say Jesus was only indwelt by God then you are teaching Nestorian heresy.
 
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Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
22,166
480
83
Philly, PA, USA
#16
This is what lancelot accused me of when I posted to joaniemarie the heretical views of kenneth hagin who in turn passed down these views to kenneth copeland who's a real "peach" of a heretic.

So lancelot, the following is what joaniemarie sain in a number of her post regarding a statement of faith. Point #3 says, "We believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life as He walked among men, demonstrated the authority and power of God in works and speech, died on the cross, rose from the dead on the third day, (Now pay attention to this part lancelot?) and is now seated at the right hand of God HAVING ACCOMPLISHED ALL THAT IS NECESSARY FOR MAN'S SALVATION." Did you cathch that lancelot?

The following is what some wof heretical teaches teach to this day. kenneth copeland in one of his tapes said to his audience, "You don't know what happend at the cross." Here is what happened according to some of these wof teachers.

"Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid our price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God" (Frederick K.C. Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger, June 1990, p. 7).
"Ladies and gentlemen, the serpent is a symbol of Satan. Jesus Christ knew the only way he would stop Satan was by becoming one in nature with him. You say, What did you say? What blasphemy is this? No, you hear this! He did not take my sin; He became my sin" (Benny Hinn, Benny Hinn broadcast on TBN, December 15, 1990).
"When Jesus cried "It is finished!" He was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before He went to the throne. He was referring to the Abrahamic Covenant Jesus' death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption" (Kenneth Copeland, "Jesus - Our Lord of Glory", Believer's Voice of Victory, April, 1982, p. 3).
"The righteousness of God was made to be sin. He accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own spirit. And at that moment that He did so He cried, `My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me?' You don't know what happened at the cross. Why do you think Moses, upon instruction of God, raised the serpent upon that pole instead of a lamb? That use to bug me. I said, `Why in the world would you want to put a snake up there - the sign of Satan? Why didn't you put a lamb on that pole?' And the Lord said, `Because it was a sign of Satan that was hanging on the cross.' He (Jesus) said, `I accepted in my own spirit, spiritual death; and the light was turned off'" (Kenneth Copeland, What Happened From the Cross to the Throne? cassette tape, Kenneth Copeland Ministries, parenthesis mine).


So I ask you lancelot, do you believe what these teaches said happened to Jesus Christ? So tell me how I am "misinformed" or "prejudice?" And btw, don't give me the lame excuse that I'm taking them out of context. I have many of their complete tapes, cd's, books and pahphlets i.e primary sources from way back to the early 1980"s. PS: I'm only scratching the surface on this stuff. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Let me answer your three questions:
1. Are you anti-WoF? Yes! Praise the Lord!
2. Are you prejudice against WoF? Yes! Thank you, Lord!
3. Are you misinformed? Apparently not! You're very informed. (Dang, you spent a lot of time reading the WoF garbage to pull out the crux of the lies. Do you have to wash your eyes after that, just to feel a little cleaning after going through the piles of garbage?)

But will Lancelot come here to respond to you? He might come on here eventually. He tends to wait around until a post hits multiple-page level, and it usually has to be WoF talking points. He usually comes on to bolster how soft and kind WoFers are, how evil everyone is for not going along, and something-something-something-totally-unrelated-to-subject-matter-or-Bible point as his closer. (i.e. Job only had one bad year.)

HOWEVER, I am sure this post will bring Joan with another copy-paste for something-something-something-totally-unrelated, along with playing victimhood again, and "saddened" how no one understands.

AND, you will never get an honest answer out of any WoFers, because they have absolutely no idea what "honest answer" looks like.

(Did I help by answering your questions?)
 

Depleted

Senior Member
Dec 13, 2015
22,166
480
83
Philly, PA, USA
#17
Sorry Brother Bluto, I'm confused and don't understand what the question or topic is here. (Which isn't unusual for me. hehe :rolleyes: ) Can you please explain? Who are you quoting , who are you addressing (Lancelot or other CC members?), are you for or against WOF, and who is accusing who of being prejudice or misinformed?

Also, I never really considered this scripture in that context before, Jesus actually becoming sin.

II Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him
.

Can you please explain what you are saying the Word is telling us here? Thanks brother!
:)
If you want to understand what is happening, take a look at the pamphleteering* that has been happening on here in the last couple of weeks, and the ensuing reactions.

If you don't want to do that, not a problem, however, is it really fair to ask anyone to explain it all to you and then answer your question?


(Pamphleteering = when Joan dumps a "devotional" from a liar about how God owes us, if we but....)
 

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#18

Actually., Lancalot is pretty adamant on the truth and seeks to bring it out and speak it out in subjects concerning Bible interpretation. And especially when there are misconceptions and wrong 2nd 3rd and 4th re-written ideas of what word of faith really means by those who are not word of faith or who know nothing about word of faith from a proper perspective. Have never seen Lancalot dislike anyone or be disrespectful to anyone if they disagree with him. Or "oppose" him as you say Speak2.

Just as their are many different Baptist beliefs in denominations... there are many different word of faith beliefs in denominations. Just because a bunch of people agree with each others opinions ....this does not a truth make.

It often will take time to learn to listen. And that is a lost art these days. Many prefer to jump to assumptions and conclusions based on things they've "known" for years. We all do it and we all need to learn a better way. (the new and living way) Just take a look at American politics. Prime example that should make us all shudder as Christians and show us not to be that way.
And this written after proving again and again that you don't listen. You didn't even listen to the first post. Why is it everyone and their mother MUST respond to your first post, and yet you don't feel a need to respond to anyone else's?
 

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#19
Just found one of the videos by Ron Saunders and will post it here. If you want to discuss this., then you need to listen to have some kind of common ground. Ron Saunders is clear on his investigation and what he has learned. So give a listen and then give your opinion about what is said about word of faith.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzGEV5y17Iw&t=54s
Good grief! Now you're telling people to listen to and pine opinions on what you post that is NOT your thread, and unrelated to the subject, other than more pamphleteering. All the while ignoring the OP on THIS thread!
 

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#20
bluto - I wasn't aware that you wrote all of that stuff. I was just commenting on what you linked to. Sorry if I offended you, but I've seen a lot of these talking points before and have been rebutting them for many years.

Let's start with this claim:
Hagin taught the following heresies: Receiving healing, just as receiving salvation, is simply a matter of appropriating what already belongs to us (6/90); healing is included in the gospel (8/92); God does not afflict people with sickness and disease (12/90); he (Hagin) went to heaven and talked with his sister (6/91); Jesus appeared to him in a vision in 1950 (8/91); he once went to hell in an out-of-body experience (9/91); he does not believe in sickness and disease (7/92); it is always God's will to heal the sick (12/92); believers have a legal and redemptive right to divine healing (1/93)

Yes, Kenneth Hagin said those things (except for the part about him not believing in sickness and disease), but I don't see how you can characterize them as heresy, unless you define heresy as any teaching you don't agree with. Most people consider heresy to be a teaching that violates essential doctrines of the Christian faith, and none of those do.

Then there's this:
"The Positive Confession movement is a charismatic form of Christian Science."
First of all, the movement is the Word of Faith Movement, or the Faith Movement, not the Positive Confession Movement. Kenneth Hagin never taught positive confession, but the faith confession of the Word of God. You don't just arbitrarily decide what you want and confess it to be yours. You have to have a biblical basis for it in order to have biblical faith. Also, the Word of Faith has ZERO to do with Christian Science, which came from New Thought. The Word of Faith teaching holds to all of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith, while Christian Science and New Thought don't.

Next we have this:
Hagin went a step further, from heresy to blasphemy, when he said, "The believer is as much an incarnation of God as Jesus Christ"

This statement wasn't teaching deification, but was emphasizing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Hagin was actually quoting Kenyon here, and when Kenyon said it in his book "The Father and His Family" he was using the word "incarnation" as a reference to God the Holy Spirit indwelling our bodies of flesh, and that's what "incarnation" means - God in the Flesh.
https://goo.gl/X5Y8av

There's no heresy or blasphemy there .... just an out of context quote to misrepresent the meaning behind what he was saying.

Then there's this:
Hagin obviously did not believe God is sovereign. Jesus, according to Word-Faith theology, has no authority on earth, having delegated it all to the church.

When a person delegates authority, that doesn't mean that they relinquish all of their authority. It means that they entrust to others certain tasks to carry out under their authority. That's Management 101. It doesn't have anything to do with the sovereignty of God. It's just a teaching on how Jesus, the head of the church, is overseeing the fulfillment of the Great Commission.

Then there's the 30 year old allegations of Hagin plagiarizing Kenyon, which are easily debunked by reading what Kenyon's website says about the matter.
Plagiarism of EW Kenyons

I'm not even half way through the page, but in the interest of time and brevity I'll leave it at that. I think you get the idea.
First, my apology for assuming you wouldn't come along until this post hit a few pages.

Second, you're confusing "sovereign" with "Management: 101" or "reign." Sovereign is neither.

Third, really? It has been shown why those people are heretics more than once. If you had read the rebuttals, then either you have a comprehension problem or you're fine with the heretics of the teachers.