So, I'm full of anti-wof talking points, prejudice and misinformed?

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bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,007
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#21
bluto - I wasn't aware that you wrote all of that stuff. I was just commenting on what you linked to. Sorry if I offended you, but I've seen a lot of these talking points before and have been rebutting them for many years.

Let's start with this claim:
Hagin taught the following heresies: Receiving healing, just as receiving salvation, is simply a matter of appropriating what already belongs to us (6/90); healing is included in the gospel (8/92); God does not afflict people with sickness and disease (12/90); he (Hagin) went to heaven and talked with his sister (6/91); Jesus appeared to him in a vision in 1950 (8/91); he once went to hell in an out-of-body experience (9/91); he does not believe in sickness and disease (7/92); it is always God's will to heal the sick (12/92); believers have a legal and redemptive right to divine healing (1/93)

Yes, Kenneth Hagin said those things (except for the part about him not believing in sickness and disease), but I don't see how you can characterize them as heresy, unless you define heresy as any teaching you don't agree with. Most people consider heresy to be a teaching that violates essential doctrines of the Christian faith, and none of those do.

Then there's this:
"The Positive Confession movement is a charismatic form of Christian Science."
First of all, the movement is the Word of Faith Movement, or the Faith Movement, not the Positive Confession Movement. Kenneth Hagin never taught positive confession, but the faith confession of the Word of God. You don't just arbitrarily decide what you want and confess it to be yours. You have to have a biblical basis for it in order to have biblical faith. Also, the Word of Faith has ZERO to do with Christian Science, which came from New Thought. The Word of Faith teaching holds to all of the essential doctrines of the Christian faith, while Christian Science and New Thought don't.

Next we have this:
Hagin went a step further, from heresy to blasphemy, when he said, "The believer is as much an incarnation of God as Jesus Christ"

This statement wasn't teaching deification, but was emphasizing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Hagin was actually quoting Kenyon here, and when Kenyon said it in his book "The Father and His Family" he was using the word "incarnation" as a reference to God the Holy Spirit indwelling our bodies of flesh, and that's what "incarnation" means - God in the Flesh.
https://goo.gl/X5Y8av

There's no heresy or blasphemy there .... just an out of context quote to misrepresent the meaning behind what he was saying.

Then there's this:
Hagin obviously did not believe God is sovereign. Jesus, according to Word-Faith theology, has no authority on earth, having delegated it all to the church.

When a person delegates authority, that doesn't mean that they relinquish all of their authority. It means that they entrust to others certain tasks to carry out under their authority. That's Management 101. It doesn't have anything to do with the sovereignty of God. It's just a teaching on how Jesus, the head of the church, is overseeing the fulfillment of the Great Commission.

Then there's the 30 year old allegations of Hagin plagiarizing Kenyon, which are easily debunked by reading what Kenyon's website says about the matter.
Plagiarism of EW Kenyons

I'm not even half way through the page, but in the interest of time and brevity I'll leave it at that. I think you get the idea.
First of all lancelot, you did not "offend" me. I am not angry nor do I have any resentment towards you. In fact, I feel sorry for you because of your "blindness" to the truth because your unable to spot "fleece" from "fur" when it comes to wof teachings. I'm talking about your lack of "discernment."

Now, I understand all the talking points you have made on behalf of hagin and how they all fall right in line as if their "scripted." I'm also a little surprised that you did not mention hagin's great book "The Midas Touch." for good measure. :rolleyes:

Now, you want to know what does offend me, the following: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dwbNvBq7eQ
You also said this: "There's no heresy or blasphemy there .... just an out of context quote to misrepresent the meaning behind what he was saying." In my original post I made it extremely clear about Jesus Christ going into hell and suffering there under Satan and his minions. Is this or is it not "blasphemy" of the highest order by hagin, copeland and many other wof teachers?

I find it interesting (to say the least) that 1 Peter 3:19 says, "in which also He/Jesus Christ went and made proclaimation to the spirits now in prison." That word "proclaimed" or "preached" means to publicly declare or to herald. What was Jesus "heralding" or "preaching?" The Apostle Peter says Jesus went to the Abyss and proclaimed His victory to the fallen angels imprisoned there. Read Colossians 2:15 where Jesus won and the cross triumphs over evil.

In other words, you have wof teachers teaching how Jesus went into hel and was tortured by Satan, beat up by Satan and as copeland stated "God the Father had enough and He "bellows" out "Enough" resulting in Jesus being born again in hell. The point is that you have Jesus Christ being a prisoner in hell when in fact he "Proclaimed" that the cross triumphs over hell. In short, your guys have it "butt backwards" like many other wof teachings. This is why I'm offended. Tell me honestly lancelot, do you think this "violates" any core essentials of the Christian faith? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
2,945
230
63
Florida
#22
Is Lancelot the guy that thought he was being persecuted for being WoF? No, that was Know1.

So strange that you can post the exegetical and Biblical truth, and it comes out being “anti WoF talking points.”

By the way, I never read that link the first time around reading this post, or the old one! I certainly will now!

LOL!

they ARE anti-WOF talking points

the Bible is full of them :p ;)
 

AuntieAnt

Senior Member
Feb 23, 2016
3,908
333
83
#23
If you want to understand what is happening, take a look at the pamphleteering* that has been happening on here in the last couple of weeks, and the ensuing reactions.

If you don't want to do that, not a problem, however, is it really fair to ask anyone to explain it all to you and then answer your question?


(Pamphleteering = when Joan dumps a "devotional" from a liar about how God owes us, if we but....)
yes_logo.png
...it is fair because it's a public forum and I had a question. Besides, I was addressing Bluto, not you.

And thank you, Bluto for answering via your response to stonesoffire's comment. :)
 

stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,827
169
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#24
Hi Bluto

Im not a follower of Copeland so I don't know what he teaches. But, my thought is that the story of the rich man and the beggar that Jesus told, shows that hell had a compartment of two sections. One was for righteous men and the other for wicked.

We know that before His coming, the Jews were looking for the Promised One. It's my thought that all who had the hope of this from time began were in this compartment of the Righteous. And I believe this is where Jesus went. He preached who He is, and then took those with Him to Paradise.

Its just my thinking however, never really studied it out.

I dont see Paradise as the 3rd heaven where Father actually dwells either, but possibly as the first level? Am thinking that the garden of Eden is there, but as I said....is just my thought. I don't know if one can know with certainty these things but just glean from what we read.

Does it matter? We know in the truth who we belong to. His Spirit, Holy Spirit gives witness within us that we are the Sons and daughters of God. Jesus said to the disciples that there would be a time they would know God as Father, and would pray to Him.

Thats what we can know without a shadow of doubt when we have this realization of the will of Father to give us His Son as sacrifice. The greatest love that He could ever show us.

Scripture does say He became sin so we could be the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. To me, this goes even above the idea of looking to the promised Messiah to come of those before His actual coming.

BillG points out that God loves us as much as He loves Jesus. I see this connecting now to how God actually views us. Just as righteous, pure and Holy as Jesus. A high calling is it not? Can we receive this in faith? For all things are presented to us as received by faith. True? If we can see....we can be.

Sin

[h=1]G264[/h]ἁμαρτάνω
hamartanō
ham-ar-tan'-o
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.
Total KJV occurrences: 43
 

stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,827
169
63
#25
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Think.....what was Paul's hope?

And then think....what would all this mean to our whole being?
 

stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,827
169
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#26
Just an add on. Pray to Father in the name of Jesus. I did leave out that but not purposely. Anything that we obtain will be done forever in His name!
 

stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,827
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#27
Being as our words are continuously recorded, does anyone really want to record against the word of faith?
 
Nov 12, 2015
8,777
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#28
Being as our words are continuously recorded, does anyone really want to record against the word of faith?
I will stand up and be recorded as against the WOF cult. I have no problem with it being recorded and I have no problem standing up for the way of the cross. I want people to know that He is always for them and their great good, even as they suffer. I want to strengthen them with my words, not condemn them.
 

Ugly

Senior Member
Apr 19, 2011
20,509
514
113
#29
Being as our words are continuously recorded, does anyone really want to record against the word of faith?
Absolutely I do. Without fear. I have spoken many times against the false teaching of WoF and will continue to do so.
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,217
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#30
Being as our words are continuously recorded, does anyone really want to record against the word of faith?
I remember both Hagin and Copeland claiming with stories how people were cursed with early death who disagreed with them.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,007
32
0
#31
Hi Bluto

Im not a follower of Copeland so I don't know what he teaches. But, my thought is that the story of the rich man and the beggar that Jesus told, shows that hell had a compartment of two sections. One was for righteous men and the other for wicked.

We know that before His coming, the Jews were looking for the Promised One. It's my thought that all who had the hope of this from time began were in this compartment of the Righteous. And I believe this is where Jesus went. He preached who He is, and then took those with Him to Paradise.

Its just my thinking however, never really studied it out.

I dont see Paradise as the 3rd heaven where Father actually dwells either, but possibly as the first level? Am thinking that the garden of Eden is there, but as I said....is just my thought. I don't know if one can know with certainty these things but just glean from what we read.

Does it matter? We know in the truth who we belong to. His Spirit, Holy Spirit gives witness within us that we are the Sons and daughters of God. Jesus said to the disciples that there would be a time they would know God as Father, and would pray to Him.

Thats what we can know without a shadow of doubt when we have this realization of the will of Father to give us His Son as sacrifice. The greatest love that He could ever show us.

Scripture does say He became sin so we could be the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. To me, this goes even above the idea of looking to the promised Messiah to come of those before His actual coming.

BillG points out that God loves us as much as He loves Jesus. I see this connecting now to how God actually views us. Just as righteous, pure and Holy as Jesus. A high calling is it not? Can we receive this in faith? For all things are presented to us as received by faith. True? If we can see....we can be.

Sin

G264

ἁμαρτάνω
hamartanō
ham-ar-tan'-o
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the base of G3313; properly to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), that is, (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin: - for your faults, offend, sin, trespass.
Total KJV occurrences: 43
Ok stones, fair enough and I do fully understand what your saying. It would be better for you to be a good "Berean" as in Acts 17:11 and learn to compare anything and everything a person says or claims by what the Bible teaches. This even includes me. In other words, you check everything out by what the Bible teaches.

Now, you said your not familar with kenneth copeland and you don't follow him. What you should do is do your homework first and then respond on whatever the issue may be. This is what's good about computers because you can find out just about everything on any subject in the world. For example, check out the following on kenneth copeland and other wof teachers here: https://www.google.com/search?sourc...+the+cross&gs_l=hp....0.0.0.24161...........0.

There are literally thousands and thousands of sites on the wof movement and who the primary players are. And a word of caution? Don't believe everything you read, this is why I made a point of telling you to check out 'EVERYTHING" with the Bible because the Bible is your plumb line. Secondly, "KNOW YOUR BIBLE" and you will know it after a lifetime of studying and immediately recognize truth from error. I've been at this for 55 years now, (and I'm NOT bragging). Plus the fact that the best gift God has given me is the gift of "discernment."

Now, after reading your post you said the following, "I don't know if one can know with certainty these things but just glean from what we read." Yes, you can know for a certainty things. One of the very first verses I memorized was 1 John 5:11-13 "And this is the record, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in the Son. vs12, He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life. vs13 THESE THINGS I HAVE WRITTEN TO YOU WHO BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD, IN ORDER THAT YOU MAY "KNOW" YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE."

Notice that word "KNOW," because God is not in the business of having His children in a state of confusion and uncertainty. In fact at vs14 it says, "And this is the 'CONFIDENCE WHICH WE HAVE." God wants you confident and not wishy washy tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine or in your standing with Him. I believe I also ask you in another post what does it mean from 2 Corinthians 5:21, "that He/God made Him/Jesus who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf?" Does all of this make sense to you stones? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Jan 6, 2018
1,217
34
48
#32
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Think.....what was Paul's hope?

And then think....what would all this mean to our whole being?
Actually, that wasn't Paul who wrote that. John was saying we shouldn't be sinning not that we are incarnations of God.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
2,945
230
63
Florida
#33
Being as our words are continuously recorded, does anyone really want to record against the word of faith?

I am for God and for His people

I am against people misusing His word and against false prophets, false teachers, lying spirits and doctrines of demons

so yeah...I stand agains the WOF false doctrines

prob not every single thing is false, so the false

at any rate, you are not the judge nor the recorder

your words sound ominous...but that is not coming from God

let it be on your own head then if you stand in the way of the truth

see how that works?
 

stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,827
169
63
#35
I am for God and for His people

I am against people misusing His word and against false prophets, false teachers, lying spirits and doctrines of demons

so yeah...I stand agains the WOF false doctrines

prob not every single thing is false, so the false

at any rate, you are not the judge nor the recorder

your words sound ominous...but that is not coming from God

let it be on your own head then if you stand in the way of the truth

see how that works?
it's your post. I said nothing but anti word of faith. That doesn't mean a group of people who have been labeled.
 

stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,827
169
63
#36
Actually, that wasn't Paul who wrote that. John was saying we shouldn't be sinning not that we are incarnations of God.
No, it wasn't. Do you think they believed differently? I was thinking of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
 

stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,827
169
63
#37
Ok stones, fair enough and I do fully understand what your saying. It would be better for you to be a good "Berean" as in Acts 17:11 and learn to compare anything and everything a person says or claims by what the Bible teaches. This even includes me. In other words, you check everything out by what the Bible teaches.

Now, you said your not familar with kenneth copeland and you don't follow him. What you should do is do your homework first and then respond on whatever the issue may be. This is what's good about computers because you can find out just about everything on any subject in the world. For example, check out the following on kenneth copeland and other wof teachers here: https://www.google.com/search?sourc...+the+cross&gs_l=hp....0.0.0.24161...........0.

There are literally thousands and thousands of sites on the wof movement and who the primary players are. And a word of caution? Don't believe everything you read, this is why I made a point of telling you to check out 'EVERYTHING" with the Bible because the Bible is your plumb line. Secondly, "KNOW YOUR BIBLE" and you will know it after a lifetime of studying and immediately recognize truth from error. I've been at this for 55 years now, (and I'm NOT bragging). Plus the fact that the best gift God has given me is the gift of "discernment."

Now, after reading your post you said the following, "I don't know if one can know with certainty these things but just glean from what we read." Yes, you can know for a certainty things. One of the very first verses I memorized was 1 John 5:11-13 "And this is the record, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in the Son. vs12, He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life. vs13 THESE THINGS I HAVE WRITTEN TO YOU WHO BELIEVE IN THE NAME OF THE SON OF GOD, IN ORDER THAT YOU MAY "KNOW" YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE."

Notice that word "KNOW," because God is not in the business of having His children in a state of confusion and uncertainty. In fact at vs14 it says, "And this is the 'CONFIDENCE WHICH WE HAVE." God wants you confident and not wishy washy tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine or in your standing with Him. I believe I also ask you in another post what does it mean from 2 Corinthians 5:21, "that He/God made Him/Jesus who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf?" Does all of this make sense to you stones? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The reason why I don't check what all others say is for the fact that I do compare scriptures with scripture. It's enough to follow the ministries that God has called me to.
 
Dec 4, 2017
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#38
Absolutely I do. Without fear. I have spoken many times against the false teaching of WoF and will continue to do so.
Isnt that like flailing against a lie similar to what ive heard called a strawman.
When there is no edification present there will be drought and soon famine.

This is a Board for believer to discuss The Holy inspired Scriptures and fellowship with one another in the Breath of Life.
Be careful that the world does not choke out the Word in your walk with the Lord.
 

stonesoffire

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2013
7,827
169
63
#39
Isnt that like flailing against a lie similar to what ive heard called a strawman.
When there is no edification present there will be drought and soon famine.

This is a Board for believer to discuss The Holy inspired Scriptures and fellowship with one another in the Breath of Life.
Be careful that the world does not choke out the Word in your walk with the Lord.
In the book of Ruth are some amazing insights when you look at Hebrew definitions. The family left their homeland because of a shortage or famine in the land. No bread. They end up in Moab? I think. Am winging it, not looking because of a need to go elsewhere. They produce two sons, whose names translates to sickly, weak, and first the father dies, then the two sons.

The widow has no way to provide for herself without sons. An important key is there about being wholly dependant on the Lord in the picture of a widow. The famine? A lack of bread. No revelation of the scriptures. No life.

I know pin you have the insight to see beyond what's written to truth. Just sharing my small gems. :)
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,007
32
0
#40
The reason why I don't check what all others say is for the fact that I do compare scriptures with scripture. It's enough to follow the ministries that God has called me to.
Then stones, can you please explain Acts 17:11 where the Apostle Paul said the following: "Now these were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica, (why stones?) for or because they received the word with great eagerness, EXAMINING THE SCRIPTURES DAILY, to see WHETHER THESE THINGS WERE SO."

That was the point of my post to you. Surley when you hear the word of God preached whether it be at your Church or on tv, a cd, reading something in a book or pamphlet or article your suppose to check it out to see if it agrees with what the Bible teaches. We are not commanded to just sit there and say (like hundreds of others say) "And as for you, the annointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you, but as His annointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him."

What do you think this means stones? And btw, why did you not address the question I ask you about what it means that Jesus Christ was made sin" at 2 Corinthians 5:21? I'm trying to light a fire under you to get into the battle because Christianity is NOT passive as many Christians think. Jude 3, Beloved while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the NECESSITY to write to you APPEALING that you CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH WHICH WAS ONCE FOR ALL DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS."

And another reason I started this thread was to find out like the Apostle Paul stated at Galatians 3:1, "You fooolish Galatians, who has BEWITCHED you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified." In other words, Paul is saying "Who has confused, hypnotized you/let someone trick you." This is the question I am asking lancelot because in his mind he thinks these wof teachers and preachers are misunderstood and they mean well. To that I say "Horse Hockey." Millions and I mean millions of lives have been "shipwrecked" and worse yet "destroyed" due to wof teachings and it needs to stop.

Lastly, I want you to know that I have been gentle with you on purpose. I can tell your not real confident with your Christianity possibly because you may be still drinking milk or any number of other reasons, but that is between you and God. I already know my calling and I hope and pray you find yours. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto