There are far to many points to discuss for me to discuss about in a single thread, but if I were to pick one I would do the whole predestination idea. Believing in predestination limits those who can be saved,does a loving and caring father predestine people for hell? No matter what they do or what they believe they just end up in hell?
Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate
- Thread starter cgaviria
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Colossians 1:15-21
“And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.”
Note that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word "first-born" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation. You cannot be created and at the same time be the creator of all things. Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.
Therefore, the phrase "first-born of all creation" proclaims Christ’s preeminence over all creation. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation!
“And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.”
Note that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word "first-born" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation. You cannot be created and at the same time be the creator of all things. Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.
Therefore, the phrase "first-born of all creation" proclaims Christ’s preeminence over all creation. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation!
V
Let me get this straight: You intentionally want to debate Christians who are standing firmly on the Word of God and want to prove that your beliefs are true. In addition, you want to find other like-minded individuals who would testify that they have not "ever met anyone YET that truly has the spirit of God." (your previous quote). In other words, you want to challenge the Christian beliefs this site is based upon, thereby breaking the rules members are required to follow and you don't expect to be banned. Is that correct?
By any chance, did you bother to read the Christian Chat rules?
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_________________ Will someone please explain to me why we're still entertaining someone who joins this site and announces they want to debate Christians, expresses that they intend to prove the truths of the Bible are false based on their own personal beliefs, and even goes on to say they were asked to leave another Bible site for spreading false teachings?
He did NOT say that he wants to discuss anything - did NOT say he wants to learn more about Jesus and the Word. He is saying his beliefs prove your beliefs WRONG. WHY IS HE STILL HERE??
By any chance, did you bother to read the Christian Chat rules?
Rules for Chat Rooms and Forums
1. Nothing anti-Christian, or inappropriate for a Christian chat room or forum.
Please do not try to register any blasphemous or offensive nicknames. Also please do not engage in any blasphemous, profane, or improper talk, or any talk that is offensive to our Christian community.
Also, please don't post any inappropriate links in your chat profile or in the forums, or in the chat rooms (e.g., links to anti-Christian sites, sites with inappropriate content, sites promoting other religions, cults, or doctrines contrary to the Bible).
_________________ Will someone please explain to me why we're still entertaining someone who joins this site and announces they want to debate Christians, expresses that they intend to prove the truths of the Bible are false based on their own personal beliefs, and even goes on to say they were asked to leave another Bible site for spreading false teachings?
He did NOT say that he wants to discuss anything - did NOT say he wants to learn more about Jesus and the Word. He is saying his beliefs prove your beliefs WRONG. WHY IS HE STILL HERE??
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Because buddy, if he is claiming that Christ is a created being, then nothing else matters. What good is it to discuss predestination or any of the other topics when he is believing that Christ is a created being? When I saw that claim, then none of the other stuff mattered. As it is, by believing in Christ as a created being he is believing in another Lord and another gospel and we know what scripture has to say about that.
It seems that I have offended some of you guys. I asked you people if this was an open forum, and you welcomed me to post here. If you wish to block and shun me because you can't bear my mere opinion, then so be it. If you don't like what I have to say, then please by all means move on to the next thread. I will not be upset. I want to discuss these topics with some of you who are knowledgeable in scripture, and arent quick to getting offended or insulting me calling me a heretic, and so far I have found a few that agree with some of the things I posted, and those are the ones I wish to discuss scriptures with. I told you people I don't have all the answers, I consider myself still a student of scripture and I am still searching for answers on many things. Right now, I truly believe most of christianity is deceived by an entire false set of teachings. Its deeper than you really think.
if we don't see eye to eye, i think it's our duty in Christ to enlighten each other rather than shun each other -- or at least to try. sharpening each other, like iron. people get het-up quickly when they read things that are contrary to what they believe here - and that's offense taken for Christ's sake, and we's all do well to remember that it's the ideas and the doctrines that we have issues with, not the people.
it takes forgiveness and meekness all around to have these kinds of discussions. may we all be given it
i do agree with a lot of what you put in the first post. there's some i don't agree with too. i don't want to go into all of it all at once because this thread could easily be 16 threads instead - it'll all get muddled if i don't pick one thing to talk to you about.
doesn't bug me if someone else wants to talk about a different thing.
welcome, and yes, it is an open forum - for discussion. not open for proselytizing false doctrines. what the difference between discussing and proselytizing is, don't ask me - i'm not a mod nor am i mod material, for a lot of reasons, one being that i'd rather talk to trolls than boot them (not that you're a troll).
i think it's good to hash out the details of things we don't agree about. it makes us look closely at them and increases our understanding - even if after all is said and done you can't convince the other or be convinced yourself, we should be able to grow through the process.
(( this post is my round-about way of saying "peace!" ))
Hello cgaviria,
What you are not understanding is that, by your belief that Jesus is a created being, that you are not even a Christian and that because you are believing in another Lord and another gospel. And because you believe this, those other topics become irrelevant. You need to understand that Jesus is God in the flesh, fully God and fully man and not a created being, but the creator, having neither beginning nor ending, self existent, Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, first and last, omniscient and omnipresent. Thomas recognized who he was when he said, "My Lord and my God." You can't be God and be a created being. I would think that any true Christian after reading your claim that Jesus was created, that there would be no sense in discussing anything else! I don't think that you understand the gravity of your claim.
What you are not understanding is that, by your belief that Jesus is a created being, that you are not even a Christian and that because you are believing in another Lord and another gospel. And because you believe this, those other topics become irrelevant. You need to understand that Jesus is God in the flesh, fully God and fully man and not a created being, but the creator, having neither beginning nor ending, self existent, Almighty, the Alpha and Omega, first and last, omniscient and omnipresent. Thomas recognized who he was when he said, "My Lord and my God." You can't be God and be a created being. I would think that any true Christian after reading your claim that Jesus was created, that there would be no sense in discussing anything else! I don't think that you understand the gravity of your claim.
someone asked about who else had come back from being dead before Christ -- here's a list i snagged from 'neverthirsty.org' (not being knowledgeable enough to just come up with a list myself)
there are three mentioned in the old testament, before Christ's advent.
so "firstborn among the dead" doesn't mean what you might think it means at 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century face-value translation into English.
IMO the fact that that word "firstborn" carried a sense of supremacy & primacy that's not necessarily directly tied to being the first literally born is an important point. i'm told that in the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century Roman world, a person could be adopted and declared "prototokos" even if they were not a naturally born child of a man, and even if that man already had many natural children older than the one declared "firstborn"
there are three mentioned in the old testament, before Christ's advent.
so "firstborn among the dead" doesn't mean what you might think it means at 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century face-value translation into English.
IMO the fact that that word "firstborn" carried a sense of supremacy & primacy that's not necessarily directly tied to being the first literally born is an important point. i'm told that in the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century Roman world, a person could be adopted and declared "prototokos" even if they were not a naturally born child of a man, and even if that man already had many natural children older than the one declared "firstborn"
I don't think it's your place to say if everything else matters or not. This is the bible discussion forum where we talk about all things of God, and thus it is appropriate that I discuss predestination as well anything else in his posts that I feel need to be discussed. Getting upset because someone is not wanting to discuss the same thing as you is pointless and the importance of the topics is not based upon your own views
Good day Posthuman,
The only thing that I would add to that list is that, those people resurrected with the same sinful nature and all died again. The "first born from the dead" is in reference to the resurrection in that glorified body that can never die again and will be free from that the sinful nature and will be raised a glorified body with power.
The only thing that I would add to that list is that, those people resurrected with the same sinful nature and all died again. The "first born from the dead" is in reference to the resurrection in that glorified body that can never die again and will be free from that the sinful nature and will be raised a glorified body with power.
V
If you are genuinely searching for answers, here's a few for you:
1. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Lord of All. God. I AM. Father. Yahweh. Holy One.
2. Your hateful view against America is violent opposition. Your extremist rant against the US could cause more unrest in our country. It is absolutely unacceptable.
i was going to ask if you were mormon, but as far as i understand, #2 and #12 are pretty anti-mormon beliefs. i agree with both of those btw
So, you think that anything else is relevant when the issue of Christ as a created being is one of the issues? My point being that, even if you came to an agreement on any of those other issues, with his claim that Christ is a created being what do any of the those other topics matter? He's got the most important one wrong making what he is believing and teaching another Lord and another gospel. What is the difference of what he is claiming from the Witnesses who believe that Christ is Michael the archangel incarnate or that the Mormons who believe that Jesus is the spirit brother to Lucifer? With those beliefs, nothing else needs to be discussed and that because they've got the main truth wrong, for they don't even know who the Lord is, much less discussing lesser topics. I would just think that as a Christian, that would be a game ender for you or any Christian regarding the rest of the issues.
V
You haven't met anyone yet who could impart the truth to you? How about Jesus Christ? He said that if anyone lacks wisdom, ask and He will give it. The Lord is faithful to do it.
You can spin a tale all day about your religious history but I won't let you dodge the fact that you came onto this site and immediately "concluded" to the world that Jesus isn't God and that America is the beast.
You can spin a tale all day about your religious history but I won't let you dodge the fact that you came onto this site and immediately "concluded" to the world that Jesus isn't God and that America is the beast.
Firstborn to rise from the dead is concerning those who are raised to life never to die again. No one who lived in OT times died and was raised to eternal life, and went to dwell with God in Heaven. In this respect, Christ was the first born to rise from the dead so that in everything he might have the supremacy