Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate
- Thread starter cgaviria
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Not so my friend. Look at Genesis,
Well isn't this interesting. This scripture is written BEFORE the speech of God began creating the heaven and the earth. The Spirit was already there. And guess what else was there...... water. And what else was there? there is a third thing that was there as well. The speech, or that is the word, as it began speaking the heaven and the earth into existence. So we have three things here, present in the beginning, before the creation of the heaven and earth. One of them being water. Does this mean that water has always existed? No. Water was created as well, but before the speech began speaking everything else into existence. Why is this important? Because it indicates that altho these things did precede the founding of the heaven and earth, that they were indeed created as well in the beginning, but before the founding of the heaven and earth..... what things? the Spirit, the water, and the speech (the word, aka Jesus). The father is the only entity that has no beginning. He has always existed.
Well isn't this interesting. This scripture is written BEFORE the speech of God began creating the heaven and the earth. The Spirit was already there. And guess what else was there...... water. And what else was there? there is a third thing that was there as well. The speech, or that is the word, as it began speaking the heaven and the earth into existence. So we have three things here, present in the beginning, before the creation of the heaven and earth. One of them being water. Does this mean that water has always existed? No. Water was created as well, but before the speech began speaking everything else into existence. Why is this important? Because it indicates that altho these things did precede the founding of the heaven and earth, that they were indeed created as well in the beginning, but before the founding of the heaven and earth..... what things? the Spirit, the water, and the speech (the word, aka Jesus). The father is the only entity that has no beginning. He has always existed.
T
Excuse me. I think I know what early Genesis says. You're wrong. God the Father was there at the beginning of all things, as was God the Son (Jesus), as was Holy Spirit. All three were present at the beginning of all things. God is one. Finally, try a translation other than the Amplified Version. That adds a lot of extra words.
Below is an example of those of Cornelius' household not needing anyone to lay hands on them, yet they received the Holy Spirit while Peter was still speaking and that because God purified their hearts by faith.
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongue sand praising God."
Everyone receives the Spirit at the time they receive Christ as Lord and savior, but not everyone has the same gifts. The gift of tongues/languages and prophesying were given as outer signs of the Spirit. However, these are not required as proof of having the Holy Spirit.
"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret?
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongue sand praising God."
Everyone receives the Spirit at the time they receive Christ as Lord and savior, but not everyone has the same gifts. The gift of tongues/languages and prophesying were given as outer signs of the Spirit. However, these are not required as proof of having the Holy Spirit.
"Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret?
You do realize that nothing of what I just said refutes what you just said. I just affirmed that the Father, the Spirit, and the Word were there in the beginning. Did you not catch that?????????? What I did clarify here was the order of things that were created in the beginning. Reread what i wrote, maybe 30 times, and maybe you'll catch it. Also, I don't use the Amplified Version, all other translations say the same thing about water and spirit, and the speech, its not any different. Check it out Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
But if Christ is in you your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness rom8:10
The holy spirit sanctifies the christian,(rom15:16) if he does not dwell in you, you cannot be sanctified.
You do not have to be sinless to be led of the holy spirit in the truth of the Gospel message:
If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Gal2:17
It would be blasphemy to say the holy spirit leads you to commit sin, but you are led of the holy spirit in the truth of the gospel message while yourself are a sinner
The holy spirit sanctifies the christian,(rom15:16) if he does not dwell in you, you cannot be sanctified.
You do not have to be sinless to be led of the holy spirit in the truth of the Gospel message:
If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin? Gal2:17
It would be blasphemy to say the holy spirit leads you to commit sin, but you are led of the holy spirit in the truth of the gospel message while yourself are a sinner
I totally agree with you Tintin,
"Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
"Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.”
"A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”
"Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven"
Sorry, I included some scriptures also showing the multiple persons of the God-head since I was here anyway
"Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
"Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.”
"A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”
"Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven"
Sorry, I included some scriptures also showing the multiple persons of the God-head since I was here anyway
There are indeed three heavens.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
There is the heavens in which the birds fly.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
There is the heavens where the sun moon and stars reside we call space.
Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
and there is the heavens where God resides
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
The third heaven or the place where God resides is also called paradise. This is simply common speak for their generation and culture.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
There is the heavens in which the birds fly.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
There is the heavens where the sun moon and stars reside we call space.
Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
and there is the heavens where God resides
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
The third heaven or the place where God resides is also called paradise. This is simply common speak for their generation and culture.
God knows. He did not reveal to us everything. f.e. He will create a new earth and a new heaven ( rev 21,1) But he reveals not how it looks like and what we are doing then.
So he did not reveal how it was before he createt the creation. So we want to know this all, but we have to live with not to become an answer. God reveals to us that what wr need to know. Maby because our mind is to limitet to understand everything.
Still, if you proclaim that Jesus Christ is createt, then it means he is not God.
On the concil of nicae they decidet against Arius. So this doctrine is heresy. Jesus is God. as well the Holy Spirit is God.
we can debate about how somebody should be baptised, ore who is the beast, but there is no place to debate Jesus Christ is God ore not. He is God!
So he did not reveal how it was before he createt the creation. So we want to know this all, but we have to live with not to become an answer. God reveals to us that what wr need to know. Maby because our mind is to limitet to understand everything.
Still, if you proclaim that Jesus Christ is createt, then it means he is not God.
On the concil of nicae they decidet against Arius. So this doctrine is heresy. Jesus is God. as well the Holy Spirit is God.
we can debate about how somebody should be baptised, ore who is the beast, but there is no place to debate Jesus Christ is God ore not. He is God!
wisdom
15He hath made the earth (by his power), he hath established the world by (his wisdom),
and hath stretched out the heaven by (his understanding).
5I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, (by my great power)
and by my outstretched arm, (and have given it) (unto whom it seemed meet unto me).
-who is wisdom?
1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
(Proverbs 8:1-22-31 still about wisdom)
22The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
23)From ancient times I was installed, From the start,
from times earlier than the earth.
24)When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,
When there were no springs overflowing with water.
25)Before the mountains were set in place,
Before the hills, I was brought forth,
26)When he had not yet made the earth and its fields Or the first clods of earth’s soil.
27)When he prepared the heavens, I was there;
When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,
28)When he established the clouds above, When he founded the fountains of the deep,
29)When he set a decree for the sea That its waters should not pass beyond his order,
When he established the foundations of the earth,
30)Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time;
31)I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men
- in the begining was the word, and the word was with God John 1:2
-John 17:24 Father, because you loved me before the founding of the world
-1john 4:9 God sent his only-begotten Son
-John 8:29; And the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself,
because I always do the things pleasing to him.
-col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
-Matthew 13:35 Jesus said: I will proclaim things hidden since the founding....
All things were created by Christ, in heaven, earth, visible, invisible, spiritual forces (Col 1:16),
All things are sustained by Christ (Col 1:17),
2“The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him — the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
Who is as the wise man? and who knoweth the interpretation of a thing?
a man's wisdom maketh his face to shine, and the boldness of his face shall be changed
Hast thou heard the secret of God?
and dost thou restrain wisdom to thyself?
15He hath made the earth (by his power), he hath established the world by (his wisdom),
and hath stretched out the heaven by (his understanding).
5I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are upon the ground, (by my great power)
and by my outstretched arm, (and have given it) (unto whom it seemed meet unto me).
-who is wisdom?
1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.
4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.
5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
(Proverbs 8:1-22-31 still about wisdom)
22The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way,
before his works of old.
23)From ancient times I was installed, From the start,
from times earlier than the earth.
24)When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,
When there were no springs overflowing with water.
25)Before the mountains were set in place,
Before the hills, I was brought forth,
26)When he had not yet made the earth and its fields Or the first clods of earth’s soil.
27)When he prepared the heavens, I was there;
When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,
28)When he established the clouds above, When he founded the fountains of the deep,
29)When he set a decree for the sea That its waters should not pass beyond his order,
When he established the foundations of the earth,
30)Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time;
31)I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men
- in the begining was the word, and the word was with God John 1:2
-John 17:24 Father, because you loved me before the founding of the world
-1john 4:9 God sent his only-begotten Son
-John 8:29; And the One who sent me is with me; he did not abandon me to myself,
because I always do the things pleasing to him.
-col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:
-Matthew 13:35 Jesus said: I will proclaim things hidden since the founding....
All things were created by Christ, in heaven, earth, visible, invisible, spiritual forces (Col 1:16),
All things are sustained by Christ (Col 1:17),
2“The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him — the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
Who is as the wise man? and who knoweth the interpretation of a thing?
a man's wisdom maketh his face to shine, and the boldness of his face shall be changed
Hast thou heard the secret of God?
and dost thou restrain wisdom to thyself?
The words paradise are only used three times that I know of:
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
here where the tree of life is which is over the river that flows form the throne of God in the City.
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Here which Paul also refers to as the third heaven the dwelling place of God.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
and Here where he makes promise to the thief on the cross.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
here where the tree of life is which is over the river that flows form the throne of God in the City.
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Here which Paul also refers to as the third heaven the dwelling place of God.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
and Here where he makes promise to the thief on the cross.
There are indeed three heavens.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
There is the heavens in which the birds fly.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
There is the heavens where the sun moon and stars reside we call space.
Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
and there is the heavens where God resides
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
The third heaven or the place where God resides is also called paradise. This is simply common speak for their generation and culture.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
There is the heavens in which the birds fly.
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
There is the heavens where the sun moon and stars reside we call space.
Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
and there is the heavens where God resides
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
The third heaven or the place where God resides is also called paradise. This is simply common speak for their generation and culture.
Today you will be with me in paradise. He did not mean heaven.
Jesus said he would be in the heart of the earth, not heaven and on the third day he would be raised to life
He also told Mary after he rose from the dead
Do not touch me, for I have not yet returned to the father(in heaven)
Therefore, you have proved by stating Paul was taken up to paradise( the third heaven) he was not taken to heaven where God dwelt
Last edited:
T
No. No, you didn't. This is what you wrote:
Because it indicates that although these things did precede the founding of the heaven and earth, that they were indeed created as well in the beginning, but before the founding of the heaven and earth..... what things? The Spirit, the water, and the speech (the Word, aka Jesus). The father is the only entity that has no beginning. He has always existed.
The simple truth is that Father, Son and Spirit have always existed and have no beginning or end.
Because it indicates that although these things did precede the founding of the heaven and earth, that they were indeed created as well in the beginning, but before the founding of the heaven and earth..... what things? The Spirit, the water, and the speech (the Word, aka Jesus). The father is the only entity that has no beginning. He has always existed.
The simple truth is that Father, Son and Spirit have always existed and have no beginning or end.
First of all, I keep quoting this scripture and its very PLAIN,
But NOT CONTINUING TO SIN does not mean that we have not committed any sins before. We have all sinned. As it is even written,
What it really means to have the Spirit is to STOP SINNING. Its not say you HAVENT SINNED IN THE PAST, WE ALL HAVE. BUT NOW WE ARE INSTRUCTED TO STOP SINNING. As even Jesus said,
And also,
But how can one be PERFECT, and NOT SIN ANYMORE? By the power of the spirit! What do you think repent means? Its written all over scripture, repent! Repent means stop sinning!
But NOT CONTINUING TO SIN does not mean that we have not committed any sins before. We have all sinned. As it is even written,
What it really means to have the Spirit is to STOP SINNING. Its not say you HAVENT SINNED IN THE PAST, WE ALL HAVE. BUT NOW WE ARE INSTRUCTED TO STOP SINNING. As even Jesus said,
And also,
But how can one be PERFECT, and NOT SIN ANYMORE? By the power of the spirit! What do you think repent means? Its written all over scripture, repent! Repent means stop sinning!
yes you are correct, there is not one verse in the bible that
authorized the Sabbath to sunday change.
that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
authorized the Sabbath to sunday change.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they
that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Last edited:
Not really, Paul calls the third heaven paradise. they are one and the same.
The thief aspect of your argument is based on a false premise.
You think the thief went to paradise that day and I know why you think that. because that is what it seems to say. however it does not. Jesus himself did not go to paradise that day and all indications are that paradise is the third heaven not the grave where Jesus was. I think this is getting into another error of what happens when a person dies.
The reality is that Jesus promised him that day but he did not go that day. As seen in the fact that Jesus himself did not go till a few days later.
The real issue is what is paradise once we know that we can better decide what was meant. Paul calls paradise the third heaven. This is common language for His time in reference to the dwelling place of God. as apposed to the atmosphere heaven and the space heaven.
The thief aspect of your argument is based on a false premise.
You think the thief went to paradise that day and I know why you think that. because that is what it seems to say. however it does not. Jesus himself did not go to paradise that day and all indications are that paradise is the third heaven not the grave where Jesus was. I think this is getting into another error of what happens when a person dies.
The reality is that Jesus promised him that day but he did not go that day. As seen in the fact that Jesus himself did not go till a few days later.
The real issue is what is paradise once we know that we can better decide what was meant. Paul calls paradise the third heaven. This is common language for His time in reference to the dwelling place of God. as apposed to the atmosphere heaven and the space heaven.