Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate

[RickyZ]

someone asked about who else had come back from being dead before Christ -- here's a list i snagged from 'neverthirsty.org' (not being knowledgeable enough to just come up with a list myself)

View attachment 140012

there are three mentioned in the old testament, before Christ's advent.
so "firstborn among the dead" doesn't mean what you might think it means at 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century face-value translation into English.
IMO the fact that that word "firstborn" carried a sense of supremacy & primacy that's not necessarily directly tied to being the first literally born is an important point. i'm told that in the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century Roman world, a person could be adopted and declared "prototokos" even if they were not a naturally born child of a man, and even if that man already had many natural children older than the one declared "firstborn"

Good day Posthuman,

The only thing that I would add to that list is that, those people resurrected with the same sinful nature and all died again. The "first born from the dead" is in reference to the resurrection in that glorified body that can never die again and will be free from that the sinful nature and will be raised a glorified body with power.

Yes, that would be the difference. Those who have been healed, and those who have been raised, all went on to die anyway - except for Christ.

 

[popeye]

ok guys,Jesus was NOT the first to be raised from the dead.

The non negotiable truth lies in "God incarnate crucified,thus the grave could not hold him"

Thus it HAD TO BE GOD ON THE CROSS.

ONLY GOD COULD SATISFY THAT LAST DIMENSION.

NOAH,DANIEL,ETC WOULD NOT HAVE THAT ABILITY.

That makes ANYTHING but God on the cross fall short.

This is the firstborn raised from the dead.

 

[psalm6819]

Do you still sin?

are you my judge? I acknowledge Him in all my ways and I find my nature being changed and my desires lining up with His.

 

[james57]

ok guys,Jesus was NOT the first to be raised from the dead.

The non negotiable truth lies in "God incarnate crucified,thus the grave could not hold him"

Thus it HAD TO BE GOD ON THE CROSS.

ONLY GOD COULD SATISFY THAT LAST DIMENSION.

NOAH,DANIEL,ETC WOULD NOT HAVE THAT ABILITY.

That makes ANYTHING but God on the cross fall short.

This is the firstborn raised from the dead.

Then I am sure you are not pleased with Paul that he did not write the non negotiable truth in the words you have done in the above in 1Colossians. He said the son (Jesus) was the first to rise from the dead. Shame on him!!!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Then I am sure you are not pleased with Paul that he did not write the non negotiable truth in the words you have done in the above in 1Colossians. He said the son (Jesus) was the first to rise from the dead. Shame on him!!!

Paul didn't say he was the first person to rise from the dead, but the firstborn, which means that out of all of those who have died, he inherited the rights of the firstborn. He could have been the 100th person raised from the dead and still would have been the firstborn because GOD chooses who the firstborn is. It has nothing to do with primogeniture. He is the firstborn of the new creation, the inheritor of all rights.

 

[james57]

Paul didn't say he was the first person to rise from the dead, but the firstborn, which means that out of all of those who have died, he inherited the rights of the firstborn. He could have been the 100th person raised from the dead and still would have been the firstborn because GOD chooses who the firstborn is. It has nothing to do with primogeniture.

In your opinion who was the first person to be raised from the dead, never to die again?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

In your opinion who was the first person to be raised from the dead, never to die again?

It's irrelevant to the discussion. GOD chooses who the firstborn is.

 

[james57]

It's irrelevant to the discussion. GOD chooses who the firstborn is.

No one had entered Heaven apart from Jesus, when he walked this earth:

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man John 3:13

No one who died in OT times was raised to eternal life to dwell with God. Therefore Jesus was the first one to rise from the dead, never to die again, so in everything he had the supremacy

 

[gotime]

Who in your opinion was the firstborn to rise from the dead?

My opinion does not matter. But what Gods word says does. Elijah and Elisha raised a boy to life form death. Jesus raised Lazarus and a girl and another boy. These are well known stories so I wont post the scripture.

 

[james57]

My opinion does not matter. But what Gods word says does. Elijah and Elisha raised a boy to life form death. Jesus raised Lazarus and a girl and another boy. These are well known stories so I wont post the scripture.

They were not raised to eternal life, never to die again. Jesus was the firstborn concerning this, so in everything he might have the supremacy

 

[gotime]

They were not raised to eternal life, never to die again. Jesus was the firstborn concerning this, so in everything he might have the supremacy

Interesting position, what reason do you have for this position that no one was raised to eternal life?

 

[james57]

Interesting position, what reason do you have for this position that no one was raised to eternal life?

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man John 3:13

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No one had entered Heaven apart from Jesus, when he walked this earth:

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man John 3:13

No one who died in OT times was raised to eternal life to dwell with God. Therefore Jesus was the first one to rise from the dead, never to die again, so in everything he had the supremacy

Moses appeared alive on the mount with Christ. Was that just an apparition?

 

[james57]

Moses appeared alive on the mount with Christ. Was that just an apparition?

He didn't come down from Heaven where he dwelt with God to meet Jesus, according to John 3:13.

You are probably better versed than me concerning sheol/paradise, the place referred to where those are who await the resurrection of the dead. Moses and Elijah must have come from there to meet Jesus

 

[crossnote]

1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,

Titus 3:9-10 KJVS
[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. [10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Nobody here is quarreling, we are here discussing scripture. I don't claim to have all the answers, hence me saying I am a student of scripture as many of you. If you don't want to discuss these topics I have brought up with me, then by all means carry on unto another thread, I will not quarrel with you, lol.

Gee, I never addressed you...are you speaking out of a guilty conscience?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

He didn't come down from Heaven where he dwelt with God to meet Jesus, according to John 3:13.

You are probably better versed than me concerning sheol/paradise, the place referred to where those are who await the resurrection of the dead. Moses and Elijah must have come from there to meet Jesus

I would like to point out that in John 3:13 Christ told Nicodemus that no man had ascended to heaven except the son of man. At that point in time the son of man had not yet ascended to heaven. So I think it's probably wise to consider that Jesus was talking about something altogether different than what you are trying to imply. Maybe, perhaps, Christ was referring to the new birth, which would allow man to ascend into heaven through the forerunner who ascended first, after he first descended from heaven.

 

[gotime]

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man John 3:13

Ok we differ on how we read that scripture.

Jesus says this as you have quoted:

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

And it is in this context:

Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

1st bringing or testifying of heavenly things. So no one has ascended to heaven except Jesus who has come down to testify of heaven. Only Jesus has done this, even though both Moses and Elijah had come down they did not testify to the world of heavenly things as Jesus did.

Second:

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

It is in the context of righteousness by faith through Jesus. I believe Jesus is using an idiomatic phrase by borrowing imagery from here:

Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?


Jesus is our righteousness which we have by faith in Him, he came down that we need not go to heaven in order to find or have it.

Thus I don't think Jesus is saying no one else has ever gone to heaven as we are told Elijah did. But rather that no one else has come form heaven who testifies of heaven and also brings righteousness by faith.

You may not agree but I find this to be in harmony with other texts and fits the contextual arrangement. Jesus is speaking to a teacher of the law who would have made the connections.

That is why after alluding to Deut Jesus immediately alludes to Numbers 21 about Moses and righteousness by faith. It is contextually and logically compliant.

 

[crossnote]

1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,

Titus 3:9-10 KJVS
[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. [10] A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

No I wasn't mormon, I was raised in a baptist church, and then a non-denominational church here in Florida (Calvary Chapel), and then a church in Phoenix that was moreorless pentecostal. In my late teens I went through a deep search of truth, as I did not believe in Jesus at the time and with very philosophical. It was then in a moment of reading scriptures, specifically the gospels and being intrigued trying to understand some of the parables, that everything clicked in my head and I had such a deep realization in my head about God and creation and the necessity of Jesus that I immediately went into a bathroom and starting crying (I didn't want to be seen by me peers just bursting into tears from just reading something). Ever seen I have gone through periods of study, and have identified certain teachings that I really believe are true, that do oppose alot of what main christianity teaches. And I really honestly also believe that just because most people teach something, doesnt make it true. In fact, often times, what the majority believes, is false. I'm not affiliated with any church at the moment though, in each sect I see different errors in doctrines, its like everybody has their own flavor of christianity, but what I have noticed that all of them have in common is the lack of knowledge in being able to sin no more as imparted by the holy spirit. This is a doctrine of the scripture. I really believe in the imparting of the holy spirit by the laying of hands. I dont claim to have this holy spirit, its never been imparted to me. I just know alot about the bible. I wish it to be imparted to me, but I haven't met anyone that has it yet.

We see Peter had sinned in Galatians 2, so I guess that X's him out.

 

[Blain]

So, you think that anything else is relevant when the issue of Christ as a created being is one of the issues? My point being that, even if you came to an agreement on any of those other issues, with his claim that Christ is a created being what do any of the those other topics matter? He's got the most important one wrong making what he is believing and teaching another Lord and another gospel. What is the difference of what he is claiming from the Witnesses who believe that Christ is Michael the archangel incarnate or that the Mormons who believe that Jesus is the spirit brother to Lucifer? With those beliefs, nothing else needs to be discussed and that because they've got the main truth wrong, for they don't even know who the Lord is, much less discussing lesser topics. I would just think that as a Christian, that would be a game ender for you or any Christian regarding the rest of the issues.

The main truth needing to be discussed is in the eye of the beholder, yes I understand that the topic of Christ being created is important but it isn't the only and most important topic. if the topic of Christ being created cripples everything and makes all other topics about God void then perhaps that is a major issue not on his side but ours because he just struck a major blow on us and made it where we have to focus on that specific topic and everything else about God is not worthy of discussion.

It's very similar to how satan loves to distract us by making our focus on something about Christ and not Christ himself, I have said before and I will say it again both God and satan are very active in the forums and we are the game pieces. If we focus solely on one subject we ignore all the others that make up the bigger picture and getting upset because someone wishes to discuss something about God that isn't what you think is the most important is playing into the enemies trap.

As Christian I will discuss anything about God that my heart is lead to and if you have a problem with this then perhaps my heart isn't the issue but yours, I am not after just part of God I am after all of him and thus I will discuss any part of him that my heart leads me too.

 

[crossnote]

He didn't come down from Heaven where he dwelt with God to meet Jesus, according to John 3:13.

You are probably better versed than me concerning sheol/paradise, the place referred to where those are who await the resurrection of the dead. Moses and Elijah must have come from there to meet Jesus

Compartments in Sheol/Hades etc., is all theory and conjecture with no biblical proof. If anything the appearance of Moses and Elijah on the Mount with Jesus is evidence that when an OT saint died his soul went immediately into the presence of God/paradise.