Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14

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Noose

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Apr 18, 2016
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There is no record of disciples other than Paul being water baptized (Acts 22) However, that does not negate the fact that there are at least 4 witnesses of its necessity. According to 2 Corinthians 13:1 every concept is established at the mouth of 2-3 witnesses.

Also, John chapters 3 and 4 record Jesus attending water baptisms. If water baptism was not required why didn't He dispute their actions. he did not.
Was the thief on the right hand of Jesus baptized?
The thief and the disciples are more than 2-3 witnesses already, enough to establish that water baptism is not a requirement.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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So Peter has more authority than Jesus?
Jesus gave Peter authority:
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matt 16:18-19

The rock that Jesus would build His church upon was the fact that He, Jesus, was indeed the Son of God. Jesus went on to say He would give Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Not ONE key, but KEYS.
 

Noose

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Apr 18, 2016
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There is no record of disciples other than Paul being water baptized (Acts 22) However, that does not negate the fact that there are at least 4 witnesses of its necessity. According to 2 Corinthians 13:1 every concept is established at the mouth of 2-3 witnesses.

Also, John chapters 3 and 4 record Jesus attending water baptisms. If water baptism was not required why didn't He dispute their actions. he did not.
How do you explain this incident:

Acts 8:
9Prior to that time, a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and astounded the people of Samaria. He claimed to be someone great, 10and all the people, from the least to the greatest, heeded his words and said, “This man is the divine power called the Great Power.” 11They paid close attention to him because he had astounded them for a long time with his sorcery.

12But when they believed Philip as he preached the gospel of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Even Simon himself believed and was baptized. He followed Philip closely and was astounded by the great signs and miracles he observed.

14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15On their arrival, they prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit. 16For the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money. 19“Give me this power as well,” he said, “so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20But Peter replied, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in our ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and pray to the Lord. Perhaps He will forgive you for the intent of your heart.23For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and captive to iniquity.”

24Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me, so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”
 

Wansvic

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Of the recorded instances (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6) of people receiving the Holy Ghost and submitting to water baptism, SOME submit to water baptism first and others receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost first.
 

Noose

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Of the recorded instances (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6) of people receiving the Holy Ghost and submitting to water baptism, SOME submit to water baptism first and others receive the infilling of the Holy Ghost first.
I just wanted to know, is there a clear case where someone was not baptized but was saved? yes- the thief on the cross is a very clear evidence. So water baptism is not a must for salvation but believing and trusting Jesus is.
 

Wansvic

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Was the thief on the right hand of Jesus baptized?
The thief and the disciples are more than 2-3 witnesses already, enough to establish that water baptism is not a requirement.
Because there is nothing recorded concerning the water baptism of the disciples does not mean it did not take place.

Secondly, the thief was under the OT dispensation. The NT did not officially begin until Jesus' resurrection. He, Jesus, is the first fruit of the NT (1 Cor 15:23).
 

Wansvic

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How do you explain this incident:

Acts 8:
9Prior to that time, a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and astounded the people of Samaria. He claimed to be someone great, 10and all the people, from the least to the greatest, heeded his words and said, “This man is the divine power called the Great Power.” 11They paid close attention to him because he had astounded them for a long time with his sorcery.

12But when they believed Philip as he preached the gospel of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Even Simon himself believed and was baptized. He followed Philip closely and was astounded by the great signs and miracles he observed.

14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15On their arrival, they prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit. 16For the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money. 19“Give me this power as well,” he said, “so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20But Peter replied, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in our ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and pray to the Lord. Perhaps He will forgive you for the intent of your heart.23For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and captive to iniquity.”

24Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me, so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”
Peter said everyone must repent, be water baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. According to the record you quote Simon was not filled with the Holy Ghost. And there is nothing recorded to indicate he repented and was filled with the Spirit at a later date.
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Because there is nothing recorded concerning the water baptism of the disciples does not mean it did not take place.

Secondly, the thief was under the OT dispensation. The NT did not officially begin until Jesus' resurrection. He, Jesus, is the first fruit of the NT (1 Cor 15:23).
1. So the thief was saved because he stole?! what kind of OT dispensation is that? The thief was rightly judged for stealing and was paying for his sins as per the law - even he himself admitted and repented when he told the other thief to shut up. He also believed and trusted in Jesus. Last time i checked, salvation through believing and trusting in Jesus is a NT dispensation thing.

2.Jesus resurrected that very night, at that very moment:

Matt 27:50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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How do you explain this incident:

Acts 8:
9Prior to that time, a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and astounded the people of Samaria. He claimed to be someone great, 10and all the people, from the least to the greatest, heeded his words and said, “This man is the divine power called the Great Power.” 11They paid close attention to him because he had astounded them for a long time with his sorcery.

12But when they believed Philip as he preached the gospel of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Even Simon himself believed and was baptized. He followed Philip closely and was astounded by the great signs and miracles he observed.

14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15On their arrival, they prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit. 16For the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money. 19“Give me this power as well,” he said, “so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

20But Peter replied, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in our ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and pray to the Lord. Perhaps He will forgive you for the intent of your heart.23For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and captive to iniquity.”

24Then Simon answered, “Pray to the Lord for me, so that nothing you have said may happen to me.”
What transpired with Simon is interesting. It clearly shows that belief alone was not going to keep Simon from perishing.

“May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in our ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and pray to the Lord. Perhaps He will forgive you for the intent of your heart
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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Jesus gave Peter authority:
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matt 16:18-19

The rock that Jesus would build His church upon was the fact that He, Jesus, was indeed the Son of God. Jesus went on to say He would give Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Not ONE key, but KEYS.
Predictable answer but of course totally wrong.

Church is built on Christ and there is no greater authority than Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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1. So the thief was saved because he stole?! what kind of OT dispensation is that? The thief was rightly judged for stealing and was paying for his sins as per the law - even he himself admitted and repented when he told the other thief to shut up. He also believed and trusted in Jesus. Last time i checked, salvation through believing and trusting in Jesus is a NT dispensation thing.

2.Jesus resurrected that very night, at that very moment:

Matt 27:50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.
Jesus did not resurrect until 3 days later.
The OT requirement was to believe the messiah was coming, and follow God's command to Abraham and be circumcised.
The NT requirement is to believe in Jesus' sacrifice as the messiah and follow the God inspired instructions given by Peter.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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Predictable answer but of course totally wrong.

Church is built on Christ and there is no greater authority than Jesus.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
All scripture must be studied to come to a valid conclusion.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matt 16:18-19
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
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Peter said everyone must repent, be water baptized and receive the Holy Ghost. According to the record you quote Simon was not filled with the Holy Ghost. And there is nothing recorded to indicate he repented and was filled with the Spirit at a later date.
Simon was water baptized; another evidence that water baptism is nothing more than symbolic.

Peter did not say people must be water baptized, he said "..repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins; this promise is for you and the children after you"
The last part about the children/generations after them disqualifies water baptism because water baptism was for the generation that preceded them- I mean John the baptist and the rest.
 

CS1

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May 23, 2012
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Thanks.
He asked my not to respond to him and I said I would honor that request.
he is wrong Spoonjuly out of respect to you and that you have been I think, resistant in being offensive SMH means shaking my head

in your response well I responded to a post I smh. it was not to be rude. please don't listen to notuptome he is wrong again.
 

Noose

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Apr 18, 2016
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Jesus did not resurrect until 3 days later.
The OT requirement was to believe the messiah was coming, and follow God's command to Abraham and be circumcised.
The NT requirement is to believe in Jesus' sacrifice as the messiah and follow the God inspired instructions given by Peter.
You are obviously wrong about the OT and the NT things but about resurrection, what do we do with this part of the scripture?

Matt 27:50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

It clearly says Jesus resurrected that very moment that He died.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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All scripture must be studied to come to a valid conclusion.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matt 16:18-19
Oh please do check with the current pope and see what he has done with those keys.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
Beings Peter commanded that three things must be done I believe all are necessary for salvation. If this were not so than surely Peter would not have added anything other than the need to believe in Jesus' sacrificial work as the Messiah.

We know that the exact sequence is not required because the record shows some got water baptized first, and vice versa. One can assume there is a reason the experience differed because God does nothing haphazardly; everything He does has a purpose.

God already knew Cornelius would be obedient to His command to be water baptized, maybe that is a key.
Thanks for being honest and stating that you are only assuming.
Personally, I really dislike having to assume. I really want to know.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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You are obviously wrong about the OT and the NT things but about resurrection, what do we do with this part of the scripture?

Matt 27:50When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.

It clearly says Jesus resurrected that very moment that He died.
Never studied it out, but am certainly going to. Thanks.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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Thanks for being honest and stating that you are only assuming.
Personally, I really dislike having to assume. I really want to know.
Don't profess to know everything. Never will either-just on a journey.