Some truth about speaking in tongues, the Holy Ghost, spiritual gifts and 1 Corinthians 14
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Regarding acts, its not in the way that someone takes man records more then the records of the book of acts.
The point is, in my view, that one said acts 2,8, 10 and 19 are written as an information for the believer to accept that the Gospel is for all mankind.
And the other makes out of it a doctrine, that who receives the Holy Spirit got the gift to speak in tongues as proof for it.
And split this in a two different meanings: the one meaning is that that this also a matter of be saved.
The other said it is as empowerment
and to edify the believer.
I could follow your view, if I could find this anywhere else taught in the scripture.
But this teaching is not taught in the scripture to other believers. This is the main point. Add to this it was also not taught during the churchhistory till 1900. So in my understanding this is an man made doctrine and not an biblical teaching, even you took it out of the bible.
The point is, in my view, that one said acts 2,8, 10 and 19 are written as an information for the believer to accept that the Gospel is for all mankind.
And the other makes out of it a doctrine, that who receives the Holy Spirit got the gift to speak in tongues as proof for it.
And split this in a two different meanings: the one meaning is that that this also a matter of be saved.
The other said it is as empowerment
and to edify the believer.
I could follow your view, if I could find this anywhere else taught in the scripture.
But this teaching is not taught in the scripture to other believers. This is the main point. Add to this it was also not taught during the churchhistory till 1900. So in my understanding this is an man made doctrine and not an biblical teaching, even you took it out of the bible.
You don't know how happy it makes me that you answered this post. Not because it provokes a battle, but because I know what you have 
And I know that I can simply tell you something and you'll know how to go pray about it and actually let God answer you. (whenever he sees fit, rather than rushing it).
So, I'll share this with you, knowing that I'll still carry respect for you whether you are able to receive it now, or if instead it takes a while and you receive it later. And of course, I intend to 'challenge' your ability to believe. Not towards overthrowing it, but rather like you are weightlifting to see if you can handle an extra plate on each side. The thing is this:
The apostles didn't receive the Holy Ghost twice. It was impossible for them to receive the NT Holy Ghost until Jesus was glorified (John 7:39 (as you know)... but this does not mean when he died on the cross....it means when he ascended... because He said also "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." John 16:7 KJV therefore it was impossible for them to have received the Promise/Comforter/HolyGhost until he departed (at his ascension Acts 1). Shortly afterwards they received the Holy Ghost.(Acts 2).
Here's the hard part.... Have you ever considered the reason people why want so badly to declare themselves or anyone else as "saved"?? <--really think about that.
SPOILER ALERT: ............. It's because of fear, not faith.
Men love that word (and have nearly deified it and built a shrine to it, lol) because it gives the illusion that everything difficult is in the past. I call it an illusion because of the very first stipulation Jesus mentioned regarding how to be "saved". He said "he that endureth to the end shall be saved." <---doesn't sound much like the way men use it today, does it?
The word saved simply means "delivered" and/or "protected".
Do a bible search and check it out. See if those words (the definition of saved) give clarity pretty much everywhere the word "saved" is used.
And consider this.... if you "save" money, that means you "protect" and "deliver" it from things that would devour it. And if you "save" yourself until marriage, that means you "protect" and "deliver" yourself intact and undefiled all the way to the wedding.
God was "saving"....(protecting and delivering) the apostles since the day each was conceived. It doesn't make it anything more or less if we try to declare them "ultimately saved" at some point, just so we can feel good about it.
There's so much more to say on this topic but I think I'll wait to see what questions/comments you might have so far.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
And I know that I can simply tell you something and you'll know how to go pray about it and actually let God answer you. (whenever he sees fit, rather than rushing it). So, I'll share this with you, knowing that I'll still carry respect for you whether you are able to receive it now, or if instead it takes a while and you receive it later.
And of course, I intend to 'challenge' your ability to believe. Not towards overthrowing it, but rather like you are weightlifting to see if you can handle an extra plate on each side. The thing is this:The apostles didn't receive the Holy Ghost twice. It was impossible for them to receive the NT Holy Ghost until Jesus was glorified (John 7:39 (as you know)... but this does not mean when he died on the cross....it means when he ascended... because He said also "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." John 16:7 KJV therefore it was impossible for them to have received the Promise/Comforter/HolyGhost until he departed (at his ascension Acts 1). Shortly afterwards they received the Holy Ghost.(Acts 2).
Here's the hard part.... Have you ever considered the reason people why want so badly to declare themselves or anyone else as "saved"?? <--really think about that.
SPOILER ALERT: ............. It's because of fear, not faith.
Men love that word (and have nearly deified it and built a shrine to it, lol) because it gives the illusion that everything difficult is in the past. I call it an illusion because of the very first stipulation Jesus mentioned regarding how to be "saved". He said "he that endureth to the end shall be saved." <---doesn't sound much like the way men use it today, does it?
The word saved simply means "delivered" and/or "protected".
Do a bible search and check it out. See if those words (the definition of saved) give clarity pretty much everywhere the word "saved" is used.
And consider this.... if you "save" money, that means you "protect" and "deliver" it from things that would devour it. And if you "save" yourself until marriage, that means you "protect" and "deliver" yourself intact and undefiled all the way to the wedding.
God was "saving"....(protecting and delivering) the apostles since the day each was conceived. It doesn't make it anything more or less if we try to declare them "ultimately saved" at some point, just so we can feel good about it.
There's so much more to say on this topic but I think I'll wait to see what questions/comments you might have so far.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
ALL born again WILL endure to the end. The enduring is descriptive of the saved, NOT prescriptive.
I'm not even slightly sure how you can say they somehow DIDN'T receive the Holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on them, when the text unequivically says they did!
Well, I hope an I don't know is an acceptable answer! LOL
Jesus said something similar earlier in His ministry.
Maybe this has to do with this verse:
Matthew 19:28 New King James Version (NKJV)
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jesus said something similar earlier in His ministry.
Maybe this has to do with this verse:
Matthew 19:28 New King James Version (NKJV)
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
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Wise choice, many Christians I have met didn't even realized that verse existed. I wouldn't have realized it a few years ago too, better not open Pandora's box
But I do agree with you there, the 12 of them clearly have special privileges, which includes judging the 12 tribes of Israel. If Jesus is willing to promise them that, then it makes sense they are also given special power to forgive sins.
But I do agree with you there, the 12 of them clearly have special privileges, which includes judging the 12 tribes of Israel. If Jesus is willing to promise them that, then it makes sense they are also given special power to forgive sins.
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No sir.
Paul differentiates speaking in tongues in private prayer,from speaking in tongues in the assembly in prophetic messages.
The cessationist ignores Paul's differentiation and misquotes the narrative to present a convenient falsehood.
Paul said "my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful"
And, "I speak in tongues more than you all" ...( no mention of anything interpreted)
Paul differentiates speaking in tongues in private prayer,from speaking in tongues in the assembly in prophetic messages.
The cessationist ignores Paul's differentiation and misquotes the narrative to present a convenient falsehood.
Paul said "my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful"
And, "I speak in tongues more than you all" ...( no mention of anything interpreted)
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Here ya go.
Eat your heart out in knowing you dont know what you are talking about.
A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds."
A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."
A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.
A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days, he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."
A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."
Eat your heart out in knowing you dont know what you are talking about.
A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says: "Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly embraced the true faith with their whole minds."
A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."
A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.
A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days, he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."
A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."
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If you would like to get technical, which I'm willing to do for clarification's sake, you could also say that even the apostles are not recorded as having received the Holy Ghost at the moment Jesus breathed on them. Look closely. It only records what Jesus did, not the apostles' participation.
He did something and gave them a commandment. It doesn't say there was an immediate response or outcome.
He did something and gave them a commandment. It doesn't say there was an immediate response or outcome.
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I agree with what you say here
why did Jesus tell the Apostles to wait for the Holy Spirit if they already had Him?
further, Jesus also stated that He had to return to the Father so that the Holy Spirit could be sent
I believe it is clear that the Apostles received the Holy Spirit at the same time as everyone else in the upper room
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you are addressing public or congregational use of the gift of tongues. I agree it should be done 'decently and in order' as Paul states.
however, I would like to ask you about this 'often' you mention with regards to people being 'whipped into a frenzy'
I have never seen people 'whipped into a frenzy' and I have been around alot of different churches that do believe in the gifts,
if the congregation is praying in tongues that does not need interpretation as Absolutely already pointed out to you
but further, in how many churches or how many times have you actually witnessed this frenzy you speak of and what does that look like?
when someone paints with a very broad brush, I would expect some specific illustration or information because anyone can say anything when generalizing that way
for example, I could state that everyone here has only negative remarks to make
that is not a true statement. only some people here have only negative remarks to make. that really narrows the field and changes the perception
you are so right concerning how a cessationist tries to explain how tongues should be used
they do not seem able to understand there is a difference and it certainly does present a falsehood that fits right in with their understanding which is NOT the correct understanding as presented by Paul
however, I would like to ask you about this 'often' you mention with regards to people being 'whipped into a frenzy'
I have never seen people 'whipped into a frenzy' and I have been around alot of different churches that do believe in the gifts,
if the congregation is praying in tongues that does not need interpretation as Absolutely already pointed out to you
but further, in how many churches or how many times have you actually witnessed this frenzy you speak of and what does that look like?
when someone paints with a very broad brush, I would expect some specific illustration or information because anyone can say anything when generalizing that way
for example, I could state that everyone here has only negative remarks to make
that is not a true statement. only some people here have only negative remarks to make. that really narrows the field and changes the perception
you are so right concerning how a cessationist tries to explain how tongues should be used
they do not seem able to understand there is a difference and it certainly does present a falsehood that fits right in with their understanding which is NOT the correct understanding as presented by Paul
I would agree with that. The proof in respect to that seen the sign. It clearly does not edify but rather just the opposite....(curse) it confirms those who do require a sign before the believe. The stumbling of the cross for those and yet for all as to what God has revealed as it is written God shows them as unbelievers.(no faith)
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;1 Corinthians 1:22-23
They who loved their wonderments made Jesus into a "circus seal" mocking Him . The same one he mocks with stammering lip in Isaiah 28 as a sign against them to confirm something.
John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Jesus informed those who seek to confirm after a suppositious wonderment gospel as another authority other than as it is written alone
John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
If you can receive this without getting angry, I would say that "the rails" are the doctrines that encourage you to read that verse backwards to how it is written.
Matthew 10:22 KJV
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
"Endureth to the end" is the prerequisite
"Shall be saved" is the result.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
Matthew 10:22 KJV
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
"Endureth to the end" is the prerequisite
"Shall be saved" is the result.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
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I think the "breathing on" is like spit, sweat, or water it is used as a metaphor in
parables to represent the doctrine of God that come from above. .He is our breath of eternal life.
God is not a man as us to breath on is to receive the unseen work of Christ. It as it is written does work in us both to will and perform His good pleasure.