Soul and Spirit

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Consumed

Guest
#41
There are many more, but you get the point.
PONT BEING that there are verses to support both. Context is so important, as is understanding if a verse is literal or figurative….a study of hermeneutics would be helpful.
Maggie
Believers in the concept of an immortal soul should consider some "difficulties" that exist if in fact all men have immortal souls:
1) Why did God not reveal that all men have immortal souls right from the beginning? The book of Genesis is silent about such a doctrine. There is no mention of eternal torments for the souls of the wicked in Genesis, or in Exodus, etc... Would not something so important and vital to the well-being of all mankind be revealed right from the beginning? Many Christians point out that the doctrine of immortal souls and their eternal torment in hell was something that was hidden from the Hebrews and only in the New Testament was this "truth" fully revealed. If this be the case, then one must admit that God kept this "truth" a near-secret for thousands of years, waiting only for Jesus and his disciples to appear and reveal this truth to their listeners. Do you have any idea of how many ignorant, wicked "souls" from Adam to Christ entered an eternity of suffering and torment simply because it wasn't time to reveal this truth to them during their eras?
2) If all men have immortal souls, then it begs the question, when exactly did these immortal souls come into existence? Does an unborn baby have an immortal soul? Does a fetus have an immortal soul? Does a fertilized egg at conception have an immortal soul? If so, what do these immortal souls look like if the unborn baby dies in the womb? Does the soul of a stillborn baby instantly gain full adulthood in appearance when they reach heaven (or hell)? Do the souls of these dead babies have fully developed brains when they reach heaven (or hell)? Where will they have gained the knowledge to speak and the powers of memory and reason? What does instantly elevating a dead baby into the presence of Jesus in heaven do to the core doctrines of the Christian faith, such as, "Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6) , "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:10)?
3) If an immortal soul comes into existence at the moment an egg is fertilized in the mother's womb, then that would mean that our immortal soul at one point did not exist. If this be true, then why is it inconceivable that this immortal soul could not once more cease from existing? In other words, if our soul at one time did not exist, why cannot that state of non-existence repeat itself?
4) If immortal souls have bodies -- fingers, toes, eyes, etc.. - based upon Luke 16 and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man... then what use is there for a resurrected body? If the soul has a physical appearance, with human appendages, then the body rotting in the grave is of no further use, and reuniting the immortal soul with its resurrected body at a future date would be useless. William Tyndale, who first translated the Bible into English made the point:
"And ye, in putting them (the dead) in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection....if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of a resurrection.... The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together: things so contrary that they cannot agree....And because the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to establish it."
William Tyndale was able to see what most in our day cannot. A resurrection of those who are still alive (in heaven or hell) is no resurrection at all but an empty show.

Consider what the Apostle Paul had to say concerning the necessity of the resurrection:
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:13-18
5) The belief that the righteous and wicked go to their reward in heaven or hell not only destroys the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, but it destroys the core doctrine of the necessity of Jesus' death. If Abraham and Lazarus and all the ancient faithful were rewarded for their lives of righteousness BEFORE Jesus was even born and died, then why did Jesus have to die in the first place? Obviously Abraham got to "paradise" without Jesus, so why does one need Jesus in the first place?
6) Revelation 20:13, 15: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
What purpose is the Final Judgment if all men and their immortal souls are judged immediately upon death? What sense is there in calling back the dead from "hell"? If the "****ed" are sent to a fiery, eternal torment when they die, then what is the logic of judging them a second time at the "Final Judgment"? Will there be new evidence that will exonerate some of the ****ed so that a new "final" verdict will move them from hell to heaven? Will new witnesses come forward to testify that some of the wicked were in fact righteous and that they were assigned to the fiery torment in error? If not, then what purpose does it serve to raise the dead? Is not their future fate the same as the one they were experiencing prior to the Final Judgment?
you amaze me bro, no hell, no soul, no diety in Christ Jesus, the doctrines you hold i could never subscribe to, goes against the gift of salvation and denies the cross, so Jesus died for no reason???
 
Apr 30, 2010
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#42
you amaze me bro, no hell, no soul, no diety in Christ Jesus, the doctrines you hold i could never subscribe to, goes against the gift of salvation and denies the cross, so Jesus died for no reason???
What is it about the false accusations continually

Do not claim I say things I do not.

I believe in Souls

I believe in Hell

I believe in diety

I believe in Chist

I do not believe Christ is diety and have shown scripturaly in great detail that he certainly isn't

All i get from you is opinions and false claims in what I have said.

If you cannot prove your accusations or doctrines.. Don't make things up that are not true about ones character. Is that what you would calll christian?

I find a lot of anger and accusations coming from certain people who claim to be christian..yet their doctrine and lack of scripture show a totally different story.
 
May 21, 2009
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#43
Col 2
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
 
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Consumed

Guest
#44
What is it about the false accusations continually

Do not claim I say things I do not.

I believe in Souls

I believe in Hell

I believe in Deity

I believe in Christ

I do not believe Christ is Deity and have shown scripturally in great detail that he certainly isn't

All i get from you is opinions and false claims in what I have said.

If you cannot prove your accusations or doctrines.. Don't make things up that are not true about ones character. Is that what you would call Christian?

I find a lot of anger and accusations coming from certain people who claim to be christian..yet their doctrine and lack of scripture show a totally different story.
sorry, truly am, i read what you write and it does come across that way,you say there is a hell but claim there is no eternal hell of fire and brimstone, correct me if I'm wrong, You stated that Jesus is not God yet confess the Deity of Christ, you say that God wouldn't send people to "hellfire" as you put it but Jesus tells us and confirms the place's existence. No point in showing you scriptures you will interpret them with your philosophy to them, i just read it as it says, keeps my life simple. I'm sorry if you think I'm attacking you, I'm not, your views are your views, i believe in free will to do and say and think whatever one likes, truly i do, hence i respect the fact that thats the way you see it, then you counter me with scripture" that God is not a respecter of persons", ok ill word it differently, i accept that thats how you believe, doesn't mean i have to agree with it though. Sorry, i can bring up scriptures and write interpretations about what i feel it says, end of the day as with the start we should use it to edify the body of Christ,
 

MaggieMye

Senior Member
May 19, 2009
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#45
I do not think our souls are ETERNAL. Rather, I think they could be Everlasting. THere is a difference. Eternal ...there is only ONE that is Eternal and that is God because he has no beginning and no end. Not even the angels are eternal. The angels are everlasting, created beings, as are we, spiritually. We WILL know joy (emotion) and comprehend (the mind) and worship (our WILL) when we are in heaven. Mind, will, and emotions, ...the Soul.

Maggie
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#46
sorry, truly am, i read what you write and it does come across that way,you say there is a hell but claim there is no eternal hell of fire and brimstone, correct me if I'm wrong, You stated that Jesus is not God yet confess the Deity of Christ, you say that God wouldn't send people to "hellfire" as you put it but Jesus tells us and confirms the place's existence. No point in showing you scriptures you will interpret them with your philosophy to them, i just read it as it says, keeps my life simple. I'm sorry if you think I'm attacking you, I'm not, your views are your views, i believe in free will to do and say and think whatever one likes, truly i do, hence i respect the fact that thats the way you see it, then you counter me with scripture" that God is not a respecter of persons", ok ill word it differently, i accept that thats how you believe, doesn't mean i have to agree with it though. Sorry, i can bring up scriptures and write interpretations about what i feel it says, end of the day as with the start we should use it to edify the body of Christ,
It's hard to hit a moving target. When you give him scripture, he just redefines the words. When you reason, he accuses you of not being scriptural. If you correct him, he plays the "don't lie about me" card. If you point out his judgementalness, he says it is to save you from hell. If you make the same claim, he says that's okay because hell is just the grave. If you corner him, as I did, he says, let's just ignore each other. lol
 
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Consumed

Guest
#47
It's hard to hit a moving target. When you give him scripture, he just redefines the words. When you reason, he accuses you of not being scriptural. If you correct him, he plays the "don't lie about me" card. If you point out his judgementalness, he says it is to save you from hell. If you make the same claim, he says that's okay because hell is just the grave. If you corner him, as I did, he says, let's just ignore each other. lol

that is so so true, and then on top of it all calls it debate, lol
 
Apr 30, 2010
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#48
Consumed

sorry, truly am, i read what you write and it does come across that way,you say there is a hell but claim there is no eternal hell of fire and brimstone, correct me if I'm wrong,
correct

You stated that Jesus is not God yet confess the Deity of Christ,
Incorrect...
I have said many times Christ is not deity according to scripture. It matters not what you or I believe Christ to be..it is up to what the scriptures say on it.. I just quote scriptures. If that goes against what people believe thats not my fault. That has to be taken out with the author later.
you say that God wouldn't send people to "hellfire" as you put it but Jesus tells us and confirms the place's existence.
Incorrect

No point in showing you scriptures you will interpret them with your philosophy to them,
Incorrect
I don’t use any philosophy as you claim. I just interpret the bible for what it is saying. I do however understand how Trinitarians interpret different, hey ive heard the same old verses and versions of verses for yeas. Nothing has changed. However most all of them seem to believe the bible was written in English and totally refuse to see waht words mean in the Hebrew/greek , and in doing so hold to a doctrine over English words that were never in the scriptures.

i just read it as it says, keeps my life simple. I'm sorry if you think I'm attacking you, I'm not, your views are your views, i believe in free will to do and say and think whatever one likes, truly i do, hence i respect the fact that thats the way you see it, then you counter me with scripture" that God is not a respecter of persons", ok ill word it differently, i accept that thats how you believe, doesn't mean i have to agree with it though. Sorry, i can bring up scriptures and write interpretations about what i feel it says, end of the day as with the start we should use it to edify the body of Christ,
Agreed
We need however anyone interprets it is their will and their salvation lies on if that is correct. We agree to appoint on this then,,that neither of us are here to ‘save’ the other..we are just putting or not putting scriptures to each other in healthy debate.
Unlike some who just wish to debate to cause strife
 
Apr 30, 2010
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#49
It's hard to hit a moving target. When you give him scripture, he just redefines the words. When you reason, he accuses you of not being scriptural. If you correct him, he plays the "don't lie about me" card. If you point out his judgementalness, he says it is to save you from hell. If you make the same claim, he says that's okay because hell is just the grave. If you corner him, as I did, he says, let's just ignore each other. lol
You really do seem very bitter and just can't handle that people have their own free will and arnt all led by man made religions to lose salvation.

I offered 3 times now to ignore me..Why do you feel the need to run people down through other people. Truly pentecostal church tactics.
You are certainly showing the cult you are in is against the true church.

Why can't understand people dont want to believe heresy and you can't make them..and just leave them and move onto other victims when they confront you instead of going through others to do your cowardly attacking.

christian???? pthhh.. too funny
 
Apr 30, 2010
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#50
Col 2
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
Colossians 2:9 is a reference to the post-resurrection Christ and refers to divine nature - not "the Godhead." The word "Godhead" is simply an English invention, with absolutely no Scriptural parallel - not in the OT, nor even the NT.
I have no problem with the verse at all,

word deity is as i stated earlier, it means many things..never that jesus is god though
 
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Consumed

Guest
#51
You really do seem very bitter and just can't handle that people have their own free will and arnt all led by man made religions to lose salvation.

I offered 3 times now to ignore me..Why do you feel the need to run people down through other people. Truly pentecostal church tactics.
You are certainly showing the cult you are in is against the true church.

Why can't understand people dont want to believe heresy and you can't make them..and just leave them and move onto other victims when they confront you instead of going through others to do your cowardly attacking.

christian???? pthhh.. too funny


here we go again, sects, pppthhh, brother please, he is entitled to his opinion to be be taken with acceptance, i agree with his statememt as it is made in a broad sense, your not the first to be judgemental and at times offensive cause people dont agree to your churches doctrine, hey you still believe in Jesus, we are to be a light into the world not a blowtorch
 
Apr 30, 2010
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#52
that is so so true, and then on top of it all calls it debate, lol
I'm dissapointed you let him persuade you to stoop to his level. Peer pressure is rife in 'christendom'

yet on saying that..
It makes my faith stronger, as it shows people who claim christianity are so not what they claim.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#53
Consumed

sorry, truly am, i read what you write and it does come across that way,you say there is a hell but claim there is no eternal hell of fire and brimstone, correct me if I'm wrong,
correct

You stated that Jesus is not God yet confess the Deity of Christ,
Incorrect...
I have said many times Christ is not deity according to scripture. It matters not what you or I believe Christ to be..it is up to what the scriptures say on it.. I just quote scriptures. If that goes against what people believe thats not my fault.
This is called argument by presumption. He says he only quotes scripture and that proves him right. But he refers to no scripture in saying that.
That has to be taken out with the author later.
you say that God wouldn't send people to "hellfire" as you put it but Jesus tells us and confirms the place's existence.
Incorrect

No point in showing you scriptures you will interpret them with your philosophy to them,
Incorrect
I don’t use any philosophy as you claim. I just interpret the bible for what it is saying. I do however understand how Trinitarians interpret different, hey ive heard the same old verses and versions of verses for yeas. Nothing has changed. However most all of them seem to believe the bible was written in English and totally refuse to see waht words mean in the Hebrew/greek ,
You do not know Greek or Hebrew. You believed that angeloi was Greek You did not know the difference between "eimi" and "ego eimi"
and in doing so hold to a doctrine over English words that were never in the scriptures.

i just read it as it says, keeps my life simple. I'm sorry if you think I'm attacking you, I'm not, your views are your views, i believe in free will to do and say and think whatever one likes, truly i do, hence i respect the fact that thats the way you see it, then you counter me with scripture" that God is not a respecter of persons", ok ill word it differently, i accept that thats how you believe, doesn't mean i have to agree with it though. Sorry, i can bring up scriptures and write interpretations about what i feel it says, end of the day as with the start we should use it to edify the body of Christ,
Agreed
We need however anyone interprets it is their will and their salvation lies on if that is correct. We agree to appoint on this then,,that neither of us are here to ‘save’ the other..we are just putting or not putting scriptures to each other in healthy debate.
Unlike some who just wish to debate to cause strife
This is called defense by disclaimer. You say, "they are arguing because they are causing strife". Then if any disagree, you say, "See, they're just causing strife, just like I said."
You look for those who you think you can bluff and ignore or try to slander any others. You are not seeking truth, only your own agenda.
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#54
I'm dissapointed you let him persuade you to stoop to his level. Peer pressure is rife in 'christendom'

yet on saying that..
It makes my faith stronger, as it shows people who claim christianity are so not what they claim.
It is not I who persuaded him, but your own actions. He was seeing these things long before my conversation with him.
 
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Consumed

Guest
#55
ok, you just ensure that whenever i see a post from "gospelonly" i will be sure never to read it, not for its content, just the rudeness you display when people challenge your churches doctrine. well done, keep using the blowtorch method, its working
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#56
You really do seem very bitter and just can't handle that people have their own free will and arnt all led by man made religions to lose salvation.

I offered 3 times now to ignore me..Why do you feel the need to run people down through other people. Truly pentecostal church tactics.
You are certainly showing the cult you are in is against the true church.

Why can't understand people dont want to believe heresy and you can't make them..and just leave them and move onto other victims when they confront you instead of going through others to do your cowardly attacking.

christian???? pthhh.. too funny
Well, I will not ignore your heresy. Answer me this, what is your true church. For you it can't be the Catholics, the Anglicans, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, the Baptists, the Orthodox, the Christian church (denomination), the Seventh-day Adventist, the Church of God, the Church of Christ, the Pentecostals, the Brethren, the Church of the Nazarene, the Eastern Catholics, the Evangelicals, the Lutherans, the Mennonites or the Reformed. All of these by your definition, as well as the vast majority of indenpendent churches, fall into your definition of sects. You must be very lonely, a body of one. The more I think of it the sadder it seems.
 
Apr 30, 2010
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#57
here we go again, sects, pppthhh, brother please, he is entitled to his opinion to be be taken with acceptance, i agree with his statememt as it is made in a broad sense, your not the first to be judgemental and at times offensive cause people dont agree to your churches doctrine, hey you still believe in Jesus, we are to be a light into the world not a blowtorch

here we go again twisting my words.. i said cults..

look the two words up for their correct meaning.
My church which i didn't need constant coaxing to display it here..is christs only church.. not some false pentecostal talking in tongues church. A world apart.

if you want to follow your friend in name calling and show your form of 'christianity' .do so.. its water off a ducks back.

If i offend anyone..then as i also said last night, there must be error in the one feeling offended..if you feel offended, that proves your not sure of what you believe.otherwise why on earth would you be offended. If i spoke lies and you truly believe it you could never be offended. As I am not offended by anything anyone says regarding my belief..which is EXACTLY the same as the aposltes and christs..exactly

funny thing i find is the people who join forces to supposedly help each other in pack mentality actually disagree with major doctrines on other things themselves..and wile they are not banding together like school bullies, they are in their seperate 'churches' running those very same 'allies' down, because they dont believe they are actually christan deep down

there is only one chrisitanity.. the apostles never broke off and formed different belief churches.. like today, catholics,baptists, pentecostals, methodists etc etc. who as i said band together on trinity and call each other christians.. but mention a doctrine that they dont agree on and they will look for another allie to helpthem out.

weak but thats how it goes..

So glad I'm not of christendom.. and so glad I know the true god..

Think how you look before you let certain people persuade you to their uncrhsitian level. It reflects on yourself. And makes you look weak in your own argument.. play the ball not the man, and play the man by your own arguments.. bully tactics are also unaustralian. Im gathering you ARE? Australian born?
 
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Consumed

Guest
#58
It is not I who persuaded him, but your own actions. He was seeing these things long before my conversation with him.

that is exactly 100% true in the post you made charis.your words did not form my opinion, his did.

and im not offended, amazed, but not childish over playin on words
 
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Consumed

Guest
#59
Well, I will not ignore your heresy. Answer me this, what is your true church. For you it can't be the Catholics, the Anglicans, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, the Baptists, the Orthodox, the Christian church (denomination), the Seventh-day Adventist, the Church of God, the Church of Christ, the Pentecostals, the Brethren, the Church of the Nazarene, the Eastern Catholics, the Evangelicals, the Lutherans, the Mennonites or the Reformed. All of these by your definition, as well as the vast majority of indenpendent churches, fall into your definition of sects. You must be very lonely, a body of one. The more I think of it the sadder it seems.
church of self righteousness??? fruit of the tree of knowledge, puffs up so much it blinds when eaten in extreme copious amounts
 
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charisenexcelcis

Guest
#60
Colossians 2:9 is a reference to the post-resurrection Christ and refers to divine nature - not "the Godhead." The word "Godhead" is simply an English invention, with absolutely no Scriptural parallel - not in the OT, nor even the NT.
I have no problem with the verse at all,

word deity is as i stated earlier, it means many things..never that jesus is god though
And what Greek word would that be? You can probably look it up, but you don't know Greek. By the way, this is the only place in scripture that this word "theotetos" is used. Since there is no other use of this word, it's translation would be unique.
Also, you begin by stating your interpretation and then use your interpretation to prove your interpretation.