Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[zone]

I have already told you why we cannot communicate, you refuse to explain why you are bringing forth scripture to back up your points that do not back them up at all.

To me you were doing ok(just my opinion obviously) until you got to mans limited free will not to sin, and you try and support that view with scripture, the problem is you don't have scripture that directly relates to that view for the convert/Christian. Why don't you? The answer to
that should be plain.
So thus far(though I have read hardly any posts the last two days) you have spoken of , mans lack of free will to cease all sin, predestination, limited atonement, we are all born with a sin nature. If that is as far as you go it is a pretty depressing picture to me.
I haven't seen any meat yet concerning a person who is a Christian, or for someone searching. So far it just seems like rationalisation of the fallen state of man, and there is no Gospel if you leave it at that.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html < click

 

[unclefester]

hi Bookends:

if you took up smoking and some heavy drinking or if you decided to kill yourself, i believe God's foreknowledge means He knew the end from the beginning and decree it (the end from the beginning and all in it) would be so.

nothing happened or will happen except He decreed it (that it would all happen), and willed it or we wouldn't be here at all.

take care,
God Bless In Christ our Lord.

Matthew 10:29 ... Are not two sparrows sold for a penny ? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.

 

[Elin]

I see why so many miss the amil view also. Its reformed doctrine that did
that by hyjacking the best proof of it by their use of Romans 9. Weird huh?

Wherever did you get that?

The Reformation was 400 years ago, and addressed nothing regarding a future temporal earthly Messianic kingdom.

You seem to be grinding a personal axe regarding Ro 9, because that is not the best proof of amillennialism anyway.

That would be Da 2:44, where the kingdom of Messiah which was set up during the Roman empire endures forever, so there will not be two Messianic kingdoms, the current one and a future one.

In addition, are many other things presented in the NT; e.g.,

1) the parables of Jesus which consistently portray Jesus' kingdom as spiritual (of heaven) and as now (Mt 13:24, 31, 33, 44, 45, 47, 18:23, 20:1; Mk 4:26);

2) our reigning now with Christ (Eph 2:6) in his kingdom (Lk 22:69; Eph 1:19-22; Mk 14:62, 16:19; Ro 8:34; 1Co 15:25; Col 3:1; Heb 1:3, 8:1, 10:12-13, 12:2; 1Pe 3:22; Rev 1:6; Ps 2:6 w/Heb 12:22).

The revelation of Jesus (Heb 1:1-2), which is the NT given through the apostles, does not present a future temporal earthly Messianic kingdom. That notion has its origins in Jewish interpretation of prophecy, which in the third century linked Rev 20:4, 6 with that Jewish interpretation, which is an interpretation Jesus had rejected (Jn 18:36, 6:15; Lk 17:20-21; cf Mt 21:43, 23:38).

 

[Elin]

I have already told you why we cannot communicate, you refuse to explain why you are bringing forth scripture to back up your points that do not back them up at all.

To me you were doing ok(just my opinion obviously) until you got to mans limited free will not to sin, and you try and support that view with scripture, the problem is you don't have scripture that directly relates to that view for the convert/Christian. Why don't you? The answer to
that should be plain.
So thus far(though I have read hardly any posts the last two days) you have spoken of , mans lack of free will to cease all sin, predestination, limited atonement, we are all born with a sin nature. If that is as far as you go it is a pretty depressing picture to me.
I haven't seen any meat yet concerning a person who is a Christian, or for someone searching. So far it just seems like rationalisation of the fallen state of man, and there is no Gospel if you leave it at that.

Okay, so I can't communicate because you don't understand the terms.

And you can't communicate because I won't present any Scripture involved in such terms.

So we still agree we cannot communicate.

 

[zone]

Wherever did you get that?

The Reformation was 400 years ago, and addressed nothing regarding a future temporal earthly Messianic kingdom.

You seem to be grinding a personal axe regarding Ro 9, because that is not the best proof of amillennialism anyway.

That would be Da 2:44, where the kingdom of Messiah which was set up during the Roman empire endures forever, so there will not be two Messianic kingdoms, the current one and a future one.

In addition, are many other things presented in the NT; e.g.,

1) the parables of Jesus which consistently portray Jesus' kingdom as spiritual (of heaven) and as now (Mt 13:24, 31, 33, 44, 45, 47, 18:23, 20:1; Mk 4:26);

2) our reigning now with Christ (Eph 2:6) in his kingdom (Lk 22:69; Eph 1:19-22; Mk 14:62, 16:19; Ro 8:34; 1Co 15:25; Col 3:1; Heb 1:3, 8:1, 10:12-13, 12:2; 1Pe 3:22; Rev 1:6; Ps 2:6 w/Heb 12:22).

The revelation of Jesus (Heb 1:1-2), which is the NT given through the apostles, does not present a future temporal earthly Messianic kingdom. That notion has its origins in Jewish interpretation of prophecy, which in the third century linked Rev 20:4, 6 with that Jewish interpretation, which is an interpretation Jesus had rejected (Jn 18:36, 6:15; Lk 17:20-21; cf Mt 21:43, 23:38).

St-i-i-i-i-i-ill !!!
people keeping posting my posts before i get to post them!

 

[cfultz3]

Matthew 10:29 ... Are not two sparrows sold for a penny ? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.

And it is explained without adding 'the will of' (which is not even in the KJV or the Greek) what is meant here in Luk 12:6-7. Let us fear God, seeing that He forgets nothing, but will bring all things to remembrance.

Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luk 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
Luk 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

 

[zone]

And it is explained without adding 'the will of' (which is not even in the KJV or the Greek) what is meant here in Luk 12:6-7. Let us fear God, seeing that He forgets nothing, but will bring all things to remembrance.

Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luk 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
Luk 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

i wonder why this need to take away from God's absolute authority, and will, and control, and determination, and decrees, and Upholding of all things by the Word of His Power.


Matthew 10:29
New International Version (©1984)
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.

New Living Translation (©2007)
What is the price of two sparrows--one copper coin? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Aren't two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father's consent.

International Standard Version (©2012)
"Two sparrows are sold for a penny, aren't they? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's permission.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

but He doesn't know exactly whose hair is numbered specifically. it's just a general statement.
k.

 

[cfultz3]

i wonder why this need to take away from God's absolute authority, and will, and control, and determination, and decrees, and Upholding of all things by the Word of His Power.

It does not take away from His Sovereignty, but to add a meaning without having harmonized it with the other Gospels will lead one to assume what it means and thereby conclude the heart's desire. Simply, if it is not there, don't assume, search Scripture.

And if God is all-knowing, which we all agree on, then He would know even the number of hairs on one's head, even as He has named every star by name.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It does not take away from His Sovereignty, but to add a meaning without having harmonized it with the other Gospels will lead one to assume what it means and thereby conclude the heart's desire. Simply, if it is not there, don't assume, search Scripture.

And if God is all-knowing, which we all agree on, then He would know even the number of hairs on one's head, even as He has named every star by name.

He knows every thought and intention of the heart also. There is nothing that gets by him..

 

[cfultz3]

He knows every thought and intention of the heart also. There is nothing that gets by him..

No, nothing. And we shall all face our Maker to give an account of those things He has not forgotten. If He has not forgotten the feather which falls, then certainly He shall not forget the intent of a person's heart.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, nothing. And we shall all face our Maker to give an account of those things He has not forgotten. If He has not forgotten the feather which falls, then certainly He shall not forget the intent of a person's heart.

It is interesting. The high priest and his father willingly did all they could to hang Christ on a tree. Knowing the OT curse,, so they could discredit Christ. Yet God used their freewill choice to discredit the one who apposed them to free mankind.. He took the death barrabus was supposed to die.. and turned it into the payment of sin for us, by taking the death we were supposed to die.. Being cursed by God.. "cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"

 

[cfultz3]

Matthew 10:29
New International Version (©1984)
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.

New Living Translation (©2007)
What is the price of two sparrows--one copper coin? But not a single sparrow can fall to the ground without your Father knowing it.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Aren't two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father's consent.

International Standard Version (©2012)
"Two sparrows are sold for a penny, aren't they? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father's permission.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

I went and looked up every Bible Translation you posted and Luke 12:6 still explains it to us as God not forgetting.

 

[cfultz3]

It is interesting. The high priest and his father willingly did all they could to hang Christ on a tree. Knowing the OT curse,, so they could discredit Christ. Yet God used their freewill choice to discredit the one who apposed them to free mankind.. He took the death barrabus was supposed to die.. and turned it into the payment of sin for us, by taking the death we were supposed to die.. Being cursed by God.. "cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"

It is amazing how God's foreknowledge was in play here also. He used their intent for good. Yet, not once trodden their freewill.

 

[mark54]

The back drop MUST be depressing otherwise one can not truly understand what the cross means. Without that back drop the message of the cross becomes nothing more then a feel good story. The message of the cross MUST be presented against this backdrop. It must show us how much God HATES sin,how His justice against sin must be paid,how His wrath MUST be poured out against sin,and yet in the center of that it shows His love,that He would send His son to take our place,and it also shows His great mercy in that it was done while we were yet far away from Him. The message of the cross shines so much brighter against that back drop and without it one can not truly understand what that cross meant.

Hopefully Elin will address some of the points you have raised and then move on to the gospel of Grace, once she has done all of the backdrop

 

[mark54]

Okay, so I can't communicate because you don't understand the terms.

And you can't communicate because I won't present any Scripture involved in such terms.

So we still agree we cannot communicate.

Well I think I do somewhat understand the terms as you see them, but if you cannot produce any scripture in support of your terms, I would say you are on shaky ground.
But hopefully you will progress the discussion so it may benefit the new convert, or those seeking, by discussing the Gospel of grace, the role of the Holy Spirit and what causes sin to wrap itself so tightly around the individual(without mentioning Adam's sin again, as I guess that wouldn't help the individual crying out to see much freedom in their life)) and how we are to see victory over much sin in our lives by living not under law but under grace, hopefully with scriptural support in context of what you are saying
That would seem to me anyway what the new convert would be crying out to know, and a natural progression of the subject

 

[Elin]

St-i-i-i-i-i-ill !!!
people keeping posting my posts before i get to post them!

Is that because great minds run on the same track, or

because gooey things run together?

I'm happy with either. . .

 

[unclefester]

It does not take away from His Sovereignty, but to add a meaning without having harmonized it with the other Gospels will lead one to assume what it means and thereby conclude the heart's desire. Simply, if it is not there, don't assume, search Scripture.

And if God is all-knowing, which we all agree on, then He would know even the number of hairs on one's head, even as He has named every star by name.

This is comforting to know. God knows everything .... including how many hairs are on my head. And He won't forget when the sparrows fall to the ground either. Annnnd .... we are worth many sparrows ... so He'll "remember" us even more so. I think I finally understand what it means to say that God is sovereign. God knows and remembers everything. Thanks for clearing this up for me He'd be GREAT on Jeopardy

 

[zone]

I went and looked up every Bible Translation you posted and Luke 12:6 still explains it to us as God not forgetting.

not forgetting what exactly?
something He knew would happen anyway?
or didn't He know?

 

[zone]

It is amazing how God's foreknowledge was in play here also. He used their intent for good. Yet, not once trodden their freewill.

which is exactly what Elin has been saying.

 

[Elin]

Well I think I do somewhat understand the terms as you see them, but if you cannot produce any scripture in support of your terms,

I can only support meanings which you can understand, which is not possible when one does not understand the terms.

But hopefully you will progress. . .by discussing the Gospel of grace, the role of the Holy Spirit and what causes sin to wrap itself so tightly around the individual(without mentioning Adam's sin again,

That won't be happening on this thread, because it is not its topic.

There also will be no discussion of the Trinity, or the deity of Jesus, because they likewise are not the topics of this thread.

And you have again demonstrated why we can't communicate.

So whaddya' say you stop tryin'.