Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[zone]

Hopefully Elin will address some of the points you have raised and then move on to the gospel of Grace, once she has done all of the backdrop

why don't you do it?
oh....you like to do the minimum.

let others do the work, criticize and complain.
then probably adopt it later, take what you like,
pretend you learned it all by yoseff,
and never apologize for the hassle.

standard.

 

[mark54]

I can only support meanings which you can understand, which is not possible when one does not understand the terms.


Pure evasion as you have no contextual scripture to support your terms as to the disagreement

That won't be happening on this thread, because it is not its topic.

There also will be no discussion of the Trinity, or the deity of Jesus, because they likewise are not the topics of this thread.

And you have again demonstrated why we can't communicate.

So whaddya' say you stop tryin'.

Pure evasion from, an unwillingness it seems to move on to the Gospel of Grace and the role of the Holy Spirit, which is a surprise, as you believe you have the meat, but seem unwilling to share it

 

[Elin]

And it is explained without adding 'the will of' (which is not even in the KJV or the Greek) what is meant here in Luk 12:6-7.

So what do you think is the meaning of, "yet, not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father."?

 

[cfultz3]

not forgetting what exactly?
something He knew would happen anyway?
or didn't He know?

Forgetting nothing in His omniscience.
Foreknowledge does not equate pre-determination. But, a determination can be filled through a foreknowledge.
If He foreknows, then certainly He can use that knowledge to bring good out of what another meant for harm. Just like EG mentioned.

 

[cfultz3]

So what do you think is the meaning of, "yet, not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father."?

And it is explained without adding 'the will of' (which is not even in the KJV or the Greek) what is meant here in Luk 12:6-7. Let us fear God, seeing that He forgets nothing, but will bring all things to remembrance.

Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luk 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
Luk 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

 

[Elin]

It does not take away from His Sovereignty, but to add a meaning without having harmonized it with the other Gospels will lead one to assume what it means and thereby conclude the heart's desire. Simply, if it is not there, don't assume, search Scripture.

And if God is all-knowing, which we all agree on, then He would know even the number of hairs on one's head, even as He has named every star by name.

And has named every hair on every head with a number.

 

[Elin]

Hopefully Elin will address some of the points you have raised and then move on to the gospel of Grace, once she has done all of the backdrop

Nope, this thread is about backdrop only.

 

[Elin]

This is comforting to know. God knows everything .... including how many hairs are on my head. And He won't forget when the sparrows fall to the ground either. Annnnd .... we are worth many sparrows ... so He'll "remember" us even more so. I think I finally understand what it means to say that God is sovereign. God knows and remembers everything. Thanks for clearing this up for me He'd be GREAT on Jeopardy

He is in control of everything (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4), down to the last detail (Mt 10:30).

 

[unclefester]

He is in control of everything (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4), down to the last detail (Mt 10:30).

...EXACTLY ! ....and Amen.

 

[cfultz3]

So what do you think is the meaning of, "yet, not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father."?

This verse left standing alone would mean, 'without your Father' and gives no indication as to what 'without your Father' would pertain to. Could it be, 'without your Father ordaining it', or 'without your Father knowing about it'.

The process I went through to conclude my stance:
Without trying to imply anything, I automatically went and searched Scripture where this is talked about again. I then ended up in Luke. I saw there that Luke qualified that with 'forget'. Now, having taken that into consideration, I read the verses surrounding that verse and safely concluded that Mathew was talking about how God is omniscience and will bring all things to remembrance.

 

[mark54]

Nope, this thread is about backdrop only.

As I said previously, a Calvanist on another website, knew much of the 'backprop' as you put it, but was lost , in fact he didn't even bother to discuss the Gospel of Grace, and when you put questions to him on it he refused to answer
I wonder if it was something to do, in his case, with his sidestepping of discussing the Holy Spirit, and continually ridiculing the gifts of the Spirit for today, It seemed to me that his Trinity was Father, Son and the Bible. But he believed he was qualified to teach the word, and, to use his words, 'stupid people like truck drivers were not'

To me, you can have all the theological discussion you want, but only the Holy Spirit can lead into truth, and it is those that don't rely on him that cannot even grasp the very basics of the faith, vs proved on websites like these. Though noticeably this is not the case in the overwhelming majority of Christians in churches, and thankfully only concerns a few even on the internet. I will leave you to your theological discussion

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He is in control of everything (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4), down to the last detail (Mt 10:30).

Finally something we can agree on

 

[cfultz3]

He is in control of everything (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4), down to the last detail (Mt 10:30).

I repeat, His Sovereignty of Him being in control is not in question to me. What is in question is that leap from having pre-determined all things which were to happen to the Christ and concluded that all things are pre-determined, even one's salvation and the detrimental implications of that 'limited atonement' doctrine.

 

[Elin]

Pure evasion from, an unwillingness it seems to move on to the Gospel of Grace and the role of the Holy Spirit, which is a surprise, as you believe you have the meat, but seem unwilling to share it

More of that piety which we saw here. . .

Knowledge of God should always be beneficial to a Christian.

"let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me." (Jer 9:24)**

**Jer 9:23-24:

"Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom
or the strong man boast in his strength
or the rich man boast in his riches,

but let him who boasts boast in this:
that he understands and knows me,
that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness,
justice and righteousness on earth,
for in these I delight," declares the LORD.

I.---The Christian has absolutely nothing to boast of.

Their salvation is a gift from God
Their one and only righteousness in God's sight is faith in Christ
And any true Spiritual knowledge they have is because the Holy Spirit has revealed that knowledge to them
He is the one who sanctifies them

Let Him who boasts, boast in the Lord
1Cor1:31

I believe Jer 9:23-24.

II.---I hope you also agree with the following:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

I thought you would readily endorse those scriptures, but from your response you appear reluctant to.

Such piety. . .

Do we have a double standard here, between your own "non-endorsement" in I., and

then your criticism of the perceived same by someone else in II.?

Methinks so.

 

[SarahM777]

This is comforting to know. God knows everything .... including how many hairs are on my head. And He won't forget when the sparrows fall to the ground either. Annnnd .... we are worth many sparrows ... so He'll "remember" us even more so. I think I finally understand what it means to say that God is sovereign. God knows and remembers everything. Thanks for clearing this up for me He'd be GREAT on Jeopardy

Yeah but remember He knows all the correct answers,so wouldn't He always win at Jeopardy?

 

[Elin]

It is interesting. The high priest and his father willingly did all they could to hang Christ on a tree. Knowing the OT curse,, so they could discredit Christ. Yet God used their freewill choice to discredit the one who apposed them to free mankind.. He took the death barrabus was supposed to die.. and turned it into the payment of sin for us, by taking the death we were supposed to die.. Being cursed by God.. "cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"

Yep. . .God never violates our Biblical free will.

 

[cfultz3]

which is exactly what Elin has been saying.

My stance is not about His foreknowledge, it is the conclusion of 'limited atonement'.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep. . .God never violates our Biblical free will.

He does not have to violate our free will at all. He can use it to his own advantage, and at the same time, make us look like the fools we are.. He has proven this over and over.

 

[Elin]

And it is explained without adding 'the will of' (which is not even in the KJV or the Greek) what is meant here in Luk 12:6-7. Let us fear God, seeing that He forgets nothing, but will bring all things to remembrance.

Well, if we're going to stay with the Greek text, it reads: "and one of them is not having been forgotten before God."
It states nothing about "will bring all things to remembrance."

So what does Jesus mean by "not forgotten"?

Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luk 12:6 Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
Luk 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

So what do you think Jesus means by "not forgotten"?

Is it about memory?
Is he stating that God's memory is great?

Or is it about something else?

The context here is the fierce opposition of the Pharisees and teachers of the law (Lk 11:53).
His remarks are to his disciples, not to the crowd.

His remarks are warnings and encouragement to his disciples regarding persecution (12:4),

warnings not to fear those who can only kill the body, and can do no more after that, but do fear him who can throw you into hell after your body is killed;

and encouragement that God has "not forgotten" them.

So what does "not forgotten" mean in this context?

 

[Abiding]

I'm sorry to hear that you think Paul and Jesus were inconsistent.

I have to own up to the same thing about my reprobate brother.

As does zone about her mother.



What can I say. . .[/QUOTE





Wow! you cut up and pasted my comment. Now its the opposite
of my point. Nice work Elin