Speaking in Tongues (Privately, Outside of Church)

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,958
662
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#21
Just to clarify are you saying an unknown tongue is a supernatural language?
If you would kindly re-read what was posted, I clarified the matter thus (and we can ignore "unknown"):

[and this is with respect to a genuine human language spoken supernaturally]

So to further clarify, when the genuine gift of tongues was operational, God enabled men who normally spoke and understood only Aramaic (perhaps Greek) to speak in about 15 foreign languages SUPERNATURALLY. This was miraculous, just as though you would start speaking fluent Swahili by the power of the Holy Spirit. You would not understand a word, but your Swahili hearers would admire your fluency.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
452
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#22
The real issue is whether or not tongues SHOULD BE USED in this manner.

1. There is NOT A SINGLE DIRECTIVE in Scripture to pray in any other language than the normal language which you use for everyday speech.
1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

2. There is absolutely no merit awarded to anyone for praying in foreign languages or mouthing gibberish.
While there is certainly no merit to mouthing gibberish, there is a lot of value in speaking in tongues.

Acts 2:
11) Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Acts 10:
46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

17) For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

3. God is not glorified if a strange language is used to address Him, when Christ taught us to pray with simplicity and sincerity.
The Bible states that when a person speaks in tongues he is speaking the wonderful works of God, and magnifying God. To me, that qualifies as glorifying God.

4. The meaning of 1 Corinthians 14:14,15 has been thoroughly perverted to accommodate modern "prayer language".

So what is Paul really teaching us here?

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

For if I pray in an unknown tongue: The Greek text says "if I pray in a language" [supernaturally]
Right. Speaking in tongues is speaking a language, supernaturally.

my spirit prayeth: only my spirit is involved [and this is with respect to a genuine human language spoken supernaturally]
Tongues can be languages of men or angels, and they may be current languages or languages no longer used. And yes, speaking in tongues is supernatural.

but my understanding is unfruitful: my mind and my thoughts are not involved
Yes, when a person speaks in tongues, his mind is not involved. He is not responsible for the words he says (although he is responsible to speak..).

What is it then?: one could paraphrase this in modern parlance as "And that's a shame"
That is an utterly ridiculous assertion, Nehemiah. NO translation even comes close to suggesting such a thing. If you're going to assert that "and that's a shame" is a viable translation of the Greek, show your work.

I will pray with the spirit: I will engage in genuine prayer, where my spirit communes with God
Paul is talking about speaking in tongues. "Praying in the spirit" is speaking in tongues.

and I will pray with the understanding also: I will engage my mind and my thoughts in my praying.
Praying with the understanding means praying in your known language.

So how can anyone claim that these verses are encouraging prayer language, when they are actually telling people to pray intelligently and intelligibly?
Your understanding of what those verses are saying is incorrect.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Florida
#23
I'm looking for a definition for "free vocalization" and Im not finding one. Humor me and tell me what your definition is.Thanks.
I believe that term means that talk is cheap. :)
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
9,661
458
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#24
Evening

Can I ask why you mean by “free vocalisation ability?
A learned ability to speak words and sentences without any actual meaning.

Children do it, some singers do it, some pagans do it, muslims do it, charismatics do it.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
9,661
458
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#25
"Free vocalization (glossolalia) occurs when
(1) a human being produces a connected sequence of speech sounds,
(2) he cannot identify the sound-sequence as belonging to any natural language that he already knows how to speak,
(3) he cannot identify and give the meaning of words or morphemes (minimal lexical units),
(4) in the case of utterances of more than a few syllables, he typically cannot repeat the same sound-sequence on demand,
(5) a naive listener might suppose that it was an unknown language."


https://frame-poythress.org/linguis...speaking-their-contributions-and-limitations/
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
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#26
The apostle Paul was not expressing wishful thinking, rather he understood that people could covet earnestly the best gifts. Meaning that we have the nine manifestations, or gifts, and if we so desire to operate in them we may seek them from the Lord for the edification of those we encounter. So he was sincere in such a desire, and people ought to seek those gifts, the best gifts, for the edification of all.
If Christians are to seek tongues as a gift, that leaves the door open for people to claim that they sought it, but God did not give it to them. That could leave them thinking that they are not worthy, or that there is some reason, some fault with them, for not receiving it. Also, it would make God a respecter of persons, something He is not.

Manifestations and gifts are not the same thing. EVERY Christian has the gift of the Holy Spirit, enabling him to operate the manifestations of that gift, something God wants all Christians to do.

I believe the Bible is true when Paul, by revelation, said that "I would like all of you to speak in tongues".
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,958
662
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#27
Your understanding of what those verses are saying is incorrect.
Your understanding of this thread is incorrect. Here is the title:
[h=2]Speaking in Tongues (Privately, Outside of Church)[/h]
Since the thread is about praying in tongues outside the church meeting, my explanation is perfectly correct and exactly what Paul was trying to teach.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,958
662
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#28
Manifestations and gifts are not the same thing. EVERY Christian has the gift of the Holy Spirit, enabling him to operate the manifestations of that gift, something God wants all Christians to do.
The spiritual gifts are indeed manifestations, but since not all Christians will have all of the gifts, the underlying premise that all will (or could) speak in tongues is nonsense. And in any event, modern tongues are also nonsensical language.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
452
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#29
Your understanding of this thread is incorrect. Here is the title:
[h=2]Speaking in Tongues (Privately, Outside of Church)[/h]
Since the thread is about praying in tongues outside the church meeting, my explanation is perfectly correct and exactly what Paul was trying to teach.
Christians can, and should, pray in tongues all the time, whether inside or outside a church meeting.
 

Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#30
Your understanding of what those verses are saying is incorrect.
Paul says tongue speakers do not know what he is saying when speaking in tongues;

Paul as a tongue speaker himself, says that while he speaks in tongues as manifested by the Holy Spirit, he is praying silently that another will interpret that tongue, otherwise that tongue is unfruitful for him until he understood it when interpreted.

There is no point in going verse by verse with you on this.

Your bifocles are on for using tongues privately. This is for the benefit of the readers by His grace & help to see how off base you are wresting scriptures out of context of Paul's message trying to get believers, when zealous for spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter, to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts and especially over tongues.

His point thru out that chapter is that tongues is not for private use because it has to come with interpretation for why prophesy is the gift to seek after, over all spiritual gifts; not tongues....but somehow you missed the forest for all the trees.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
5,334
806
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#31
A learned ability to speak words and sentences without any actual meaning.

Children do it, some singers do it, some pagans do it, muslims do it, charismatics do it.
Are you then saying that tongues are fake?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
452
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#32
The spiritual gifts are indeed manifestations
Gifts are gifts, manifestations are manifestations. A gift can have manifestations.

but since not all Christians will have all of the gifts, the underlying premise that all will (or could) speak in tongues is nonsense.
1 Cor 12:
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Eph 6:
18) Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Jude
20) But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

And in any event, modern tongues are also nonsensical language.
Thanks for your opinion. Enow will probably 'like' all your posts on this topic.

I disagree with your understanding.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
12,205
337
83
#34
A learned ability to speak words and sentences without any actual meaning.

Children do it, some singers do it, some pagans do it, muslims do it, charismatics do it.

So my pastor friend who became saved because a woman spoke in tongues in his own language and told him how to be saved, you would say to him....?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
452
83
#35
Paul says tongue speakers do not know what he is saying when speaking in tongues;
That is correct.

Paul as a tongue speaker himself, says that while he speaks in tongues as manifested by the Holy Spirit, he is praying silently that another will interpret that tongue, otherwise that tongue is unfruitful for him until he understood it when interpreted.
That is incorrect. When a person speaks in tongues in public, that person is to be the one to interpret. If he is speaking to himself, no interpretation is necessary.

There is no point in going verse by verse with you on this.
You have made that very apparent, Enow.

Your bifocles are on for using tongues privately.
My bifocals are on what the scriptures say. Yours are focused on a false belief, preventing you from understand what the scriptures are saying.

This is for the benefit of the readers by His grace & help to see how off base you are wresting scriptures out of context of Paul's message trying to get believers, when zealous for spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter, to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts and especially over tongues.
The Bible never states to seek the "gift" of prophesy over the "gift" of tongues. Prophesy is greater than tongues in the church unless the tongues are interpreted, so the church can be edified. But when a person speaks in tongues to himself, he is edifying himself, magnifying God, and giving thanks well.

His point thru out that chapter is that tongues is not for private use
That is flat out false, Enow.

because it has to come with interpretation
Yes, in the church, in an assembly, tongues must always be interpreted.

for why prophesy is the gift to seek after, over all spiritual gifts; not tongues....but somehow you missed the forest for all the trees.
We should be seeking opportunities to operate ALL of the manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit. Tongues is one we can do almost all the time.

Signing off for now...
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
9,661
458
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#36
So my pastor friend who became saved because a woman spoke in tongues in his own language and told him how to be saved, you would say to him....?
Nothing, so far it is just 3rd or 4th hand saying.

Neither you nor me were present.
 
Last edited:

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
9,661
458
83
#37
Are you then saying that tongues are fake?
I have never met a non-fake tongue. So far still learned free vocalization, sometimes mixed with languages known to speaker (like with English, Spanish, whatever they heard somewhere).
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
5,958
662
113
#38
Christians can, and should, pray in tongues all the time, whether inside or outside a church meeting.
Really? Which instructions of Christ are you referring to?
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,055
313
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28
#39
The real issue is whether or not tongues SHOULD BE USED in this manner.

1. There is NOT A SINGLE DIRECTIVE in Scripture to pray in any other language than the normal language which you use for everyday speech.

2. There is absolutely no merit awarded to anyone for praying in foreign languages or mouthing gibberish.

3. God is not glorified if a strange language is used to address Him, when Christ taught us to pray with simplicity and sincerity.

4. The meaning of 1 Corinthians 14:14,15 has been thoroughly perverted to accommodate modern "prayer language".

So what is Paul really teaching us here?

For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

For if I pray in an unknown tongue: The Greek text says "if I pray in a language" [supernaturally]

my spirit prayeth: only my spirit is involved [and this is with respect to a genuine human language spoken supernaturally]

but my understanding is unfruitful: my mind and my thoughts are not involved

What is it then?: one could paraphrase this in modern parlance as "And that's a shame"

I will pray with the spirit: I will engage in genuine prayer, where my spirit communes with God

and I will pray with the understanding also: I will engage my mind and my thoughts in my praying.

So how can anyone claim that these verses are encouraging prayer language, when they are actually telling people to pray intelligently and intelligibly?
Actually, we do have such directives.

1 Corinthians 14:14-17 King James Version (KJV)

14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

In these verses we see that it speaks of praying in tongues. There is your directive, to pray and even sing in tongues (verse 15).


1 Corinthians 14:28King James Version (KJV)

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Given the context, here is another directive to the tongue speaker to speak in tongues between himself and the Lord (prayer). Emphasis on silence in the church. Yet privately, feel free to speak to the Lord in tongues, considering tongues are not to men but to God (as shown in 1 Corinhians 14:2).

There are plenty of directives, not to mention the admonition to pray without ceasing. What better way, than in tongues as the Lord guides you on what to pray for and about? His perfect will.