Speculation for a seemingly biblical contradiction

[Benadam]

Who would put boundaries on God's creativity. Maybe there are other planets with unfallen rational creatures. But even if so God hasn't given us reason to be concerned about it......I think we are the first .

We live here and as of yet the possibility of rational moral agents on another planet hasn't presented a reason to shift focus from life on earth.

Robo, there is interesting theology developed around the idea. Christology to be specific.

What if aliens asked to be Baptized? What if they sinned could the Son Incarnate again as one of them? Stuff like that.

 

[Scribe]

But isn’t earth a physical world? If God created earth as a physical place inhabited by the flesh and blood physical beings, why is it senseless to assume in all of the cosmos of stars and planets we know physically exist, we would reject any idea that other physical inhabited worlds of God’s creation also exist? Why is it senseless to imagine that there are other physically populated worlds not condemned by sin and perfectly existing in pure loving everlasting life whereby earth’s saints taken alive by God have, (for lack of other words), been transplanted?

Because it says Enoch did not see death. The understanding of the Hebrews, and of course Paul was that he was translated to "the other side" without dying. Also to be taken up into heaven (Elijah) is an interpretation of being taken into that "spiritual world" called heaven.
Elijah and Moses were seen talking with Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration, and they discussed Jesus upcoming crucifixion. Therefore we see that Moses who had died (though his body was buried by God) and Elijah who did not die seem to be dwelling in the same place in a spiritual world at this present time or at least existing in a spiritual world together at the time of the transfiguration and allowed to be seen by the three apostles as they witnessed the power of the coming of the son of man, and the glory that they will inherit when Jesus comes back. Also as previously mentioned the great crowd of witnesses are made up of those who have died in Heb 11 and include Enoch who did not die but is with that crowd as the great crowd of witnesses. The understanding being that they are all in a spiritual realm we call heaven only because we don't know what else to call it and God has not explained it all yet.

Though the idea of other planets hosting life are intriguing they are physical and not spiritual so why would Elijah live on a planet and then come visit Jesus with Moses on the mount. Seems more likely that Moses and Elijah came from the same place that day don't you think? A spiritual realm.

 

[Benadam]

Therefore we see that Moses who had died (though his body was buried by God) and Elijah who did not die seem to be dwelling in the same place in a spiritual world at this present time or at least existing in a spiritual world together at the time of the transfiguration and allowed to be seen by the

What do you think of the argument between St. Michael and Satan about the body of Moses? Can it's outcome pertain to the meaning of Moses at the Trsnsfiguration?

Buried by the Lord.....Does that mean that Moses died and was buried? No doubt about it? Did the Lord ever bury anyone else. Sorry for so many questions. I find your posts a good read from a well trained mind.

 

[Scribe]

What do you think of the argument between St. Michael and Satan about the body of Moses? Can it's outcome pertain to the meaning of Moses at the Trsnsfiguration?

Buried by the Lord.....Does that mean that Moses died and was buried? No doubt about it? Did the Lord ever bury anyone else. Sorry for so many questions. I find your posts a good read from a well trained mind.

Deut 34:
5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

Jude
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Rev 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Some of the most mysterious scriptures in the bible. I do not know the meaning. I can speculate like everyone else. It is possible that the war between Michael and Satan had something to Satan wanting to do something with Moses body that he was not allowed to do. Does it mean Moses body was preserved? When the war in heaven in Revelation is mentioned is it over the Body of Christ and the fact that these raptured saints did not have to die? I don't know. I am still waiting for more understanding.

 

[Nehemiah6]

My opinions here are simply speculation ^ pure unproven opinion

At least you did not pass off your speculation as Bible interpretation. So here is the truth from Scripture:

1. Enoch was raptured to Heaven supernaturally, since he lived on earth. That is what "translated" means. This pre-figured the Rapture of the Church.

2. Elijah was clearly taken up to Heaven, since that is plainly stated in Scripture. This is beyond dispute.

3. John 3:13 has been misinterpreted by those who have no spiritual discernment. Jesus was speaking about Himself and His unique (1) descent from Heaven, (2) His anticipated ascent to Heaven, and (3) His presence in Heaven in Spirit even while was on earth. This verse applies strictly to Himself, and does not nullify the other Scriptures. The context itself shows that He is special in every sense.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

It seems that common sense would have it that Enoch and Elijah either “ascended” to earth from heaven, or didn’t go to heaven.

If your teacher hasn't taught you, you might consider the commons sense in v11 of Isaiah 29:11-12. But with that said, consider
John 16:25

These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

If the Holy Ghost had drawn you to the scriptures then you would know who the LORD is, you would know how you were drawn (Isaiah 59:1) and what Jesus meant by ;sent him'. (John 6:44)

In John 3:13, Jesus tells us the following: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13)

The "man" which Jesus was referring unto is the Holy Ghost who is the Father, the firstborn of all. Hence the reason Jesus refers unto himself as the Son of man, since the Holy Ghost is the Son of God that only hath the power to ascended to the heaven above the cloud. and who only is shown in the scriptures to have come down from heaven. Which is not to say that nobody has been carried into heaven, since the days of man in the flesh are numbered to only 120 years on earth then all those of old those who lived beyond a 120 years of age had been lifted up into the kingdom of heaven.

Just one final note, the whirlwind that carried Elijah into heaven (see Job 38:1)

 

[UnoiAmarah]

1. Enoch was raptured to Heaven supernaturally, since he lived on earth. That is what "translated" means. This pre-figured the Rapture of the Church.

And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: Gen 5:23

Enoch only shows that the 1,000 years isn't guaranteed.

Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? Eccl 6:6
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Ps 90:4

So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom. Ps 90:12

 

[Runningman]

Robo's original post shouted loud and clear that he was seeking debate, not knowledge.

Robo's post #1
It seems that common sense would have it that Enoch and Elijah either “ascended” to earth from heaven, or didn’t go to heaven. I’m subscribing to the latter with pure speculation. I speculate that in the Father’s House are many mansions, i.e. “Other worlds,” i.e. planets, thus I’m speculating that Enoch & Elijah were taken by the Lord to other perfect worlds in God’s great universe? What’s your opinion?

I answered that question biblically and right away Robo gets combative. Another person gave biblical answers and he too was confronted by Robo. Obviously Robo does not like scripture. He didn't want answers from the bible. Same as all the "un-born".

This subject is done to death by now and I for one am over this inanity. I see his ploy now is to ensnare you birds into a useless debate of things he imagines can make a mockery of scripture. That IS what trolls do.

REMEMBER TO NOT GO BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE. (Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, 1 COR 4:6)

What alerted me was that he didn't seem to give deference to the word of God as being without errors.

He framed the question as his opinion, but when I tried to point out that when we find a perceived contradiction that it is our judgement that is in error. Amen?

So this is the Bible discussion forum where we should be able to discuss the Bible.

As soon as I even challenged his narrative he used whataboutism and guilt tripping: "I don't feel welcome here, I'm taking my ball and going home!" and false accusations "There are not real loving Christians here." When all we are trying to do is understand scripture, sometimes correction is in order.

If you felt gaslighted, too, then you were not alone. Jesus told us we will recognize them by their fruits. Stay vigilant, stay alert.

 

[Robo36]

Because it says Enoch did not see death. The understanding of the Hebrews, and of course Paul was that he was translated to "the other side" without dying. Also to be taken up into heaven (Elijah) is an interpretation of being taken into that "spiritual world" called heaven.
Elijah and Moses were seen talking with Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration, and they discussed Jesus upcoming crucifixion. Therefore we see that Moses who had died (though his body was buried by God) and Elijah who did not die seem to be dwelling in the same place in a spiritual world at this present time or at least existing in a spiritual world together at the time of the transfiguration and allowed to be seen by the three apostles as they witnessed the power of the coming of the son of man, and the glory that they will inherit when Jesus comes back. Also as previously mentioned the great crowd of witnesses are made up of those who have died in Heb 11 and include Enoch who did not die but is with that crowd as the great crowd of witnesses. The understanding being that they are all in a spiritual realm we call heaven only because we don't know what else to call it and God has not explained it all yet.

Though the idea of other planets hosting life are intriguing they are physical and not spiritual so why would Elijah live on a planet and then come visit Jesus with Moses on the mount. Seems more likely that Moses and Elijah came from the same place that day don't you think? A spiritual realm.

I appreciate your honesty. I have seen and listened to many in my life that proclaim superior biblical understanding. I've yet to see one I'd trust with their proclamations. I've come to believe that common man who is truthful about scripture fears not to admit his/her often lack of understanding therewith.

those here who actually read my OP should have understood simply by my original pronouncements that I was simply presenting SPECULATION for conversation and the ideas and opinions of others. I'd hop[ed for a civil and respectful conversation. I was labeled a troll. I've quickly discovered this forum is hardly ant different than political sites I've visited.

I apologize for this thread! I hoped for all brothers and sisters in Christ here.

 

[Robo36]

If you felt gaslighted, too, then you were not alone. Jesus told us we will recognize them by their fruits. Stay vigilant, stay alert.

Just so you'll know sir, I'm a little bit sick and tired of your accusations that I'm a disciple of Satan! I'll pray for you!

 

[Runningman]

Just so you'll know sir, I'm a little bit sick and tired of your accusations that I'm a disciple of Satan! I'll pray for you!

I never called you a disciple of Satan. It isn't helpful to keep making false accusations.

I'm saying that you are proposing Bible contradictions where there actually aren't any. The word of God is without error. Why should we even entertain the scenario the Bible has errors in it if we know there aren't any?

What's with being perpetually offended over this? Let's take a step back and just try to answer these important questions and see if we can at least find some common ground.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I don't know why, but there are always a number of well-meaning folks who may or may not have maturity in knowledge of scripture, that feel they MUST correct, defend and soothe the trolls.

They call it evangelism or defending the faith........I say they lack discernment and are casting PEARLS.

 

[Robo36]

I never called you a disciple of Satan. It isn't helpful to keep making false accusations.

I'm saying that you are proposing Bible contradictions where there actually aren't any. The word of God is without error. Why should we even entertain the scenario the Bible has errors in it if we know there aren't any?

What's with being perpetually offended over this? Let's take a step back and just try to answer these important questions and see if we can at least find some common ground.

Wouldn't it be nice if you did answer the questions instead of labeling me a troll, i.e. a disciple of Satan?

I never claimed the bible had errors, I claimed it had "SEEMING" contradictions and my quest is simply seeking those "answers" you're now claiming you'd like to entertain. Have at it Runningman!

 

[Blain]

Just so you'll know sir, I'm a little bit sick and tired of your accusations that I'm a disciple of Satan! I'll pray for you!

I know runningman and he isn't the kind of person to say anything like that I fell a bit behind in the thread but from this post he was giving you sound advice and encouragement. I know you are used to being attacked since you were on a political forum trust me I used to go to one but you have to learn to use discernment when reading a persons post

 

[Runningman]

Wouldn't it be nice if you did answer the questions instead of labeling me a troll, i.e. a disciple of Satan?

I never claimed the bible had errors, I claimed it had "SEEMING" contradictions and my quest is simply seeking those "answers" you're now claiming you'd like to entertain. Have at it Runningman!

I did "have at it" already, though. The first thing I said to you was we should read God's word in full context and not cherry pick single-sentence verses out of the blue and scrutinize them alone on a pedestal. Sound familiar yet?

I also said God's word is without contradictions so the "seeming" contradictions that you want to entertain aren't there in real life. That's my point.

This is how you responded to that encouragement:

"But you have no opinion yourself right? Thus far I see little to no unraveling of "SEEMINGLY" contradictory scripture that I can hang my hat on here so far. However, I do detect animosity and opinions insinuating I'm simply a carrier of Satan's temptations to steer the forum toward hell and damnation. I'm beginning to regret attempting to seek Christian fellowship here." - Robo36

So where this conversation took a nose dive yet?

 

[Blain]

I don't know why, but there are always a number of well-meaning folks who may or may not have maturity in knowledge of scripture, that feel they MUST correct, defend and soothe the trolls.

They call it evangelism or defending the faith........I say they lack discernment and are casting PEARLS.

I don't know if he is a troll or just immature but from what I have seen how responds to correction and sound advice I would say I misjudged his fruits. He has been given sound and wise advice I have even tried to help him personally but it seems he has no intention of taking any advice so I am beginning to think I misjudged his character unless he can prove me wrong and actually listen to others and not attack in retaliation then I admit to be being wrong in my assesment to him

 

[GraceAndTruth]

I don't know if he is a troll or just immature but from what I have seen how responds to correction and sound advice I would say I misjudged his fruits. He has been given sound and wise advice I have even tried to help him personally but it seems he has no intention of taking any advice so I am beginning to think I misjudged his character unless he can prove me wrong and actually listen to others and not attack in retaliation then I admit to be being wrong in my assesment to him

Your testimony is not important to me, I stand with the apostle Paul when I say that Jesus Christ and Him crucified is MY testimony,
1 Cor. 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

 

[Scribe]

And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: Gen 5:23

Enoch only shows that the 1,000 years isn't guaranteed.

Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place? Eccl 6:6
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Ps 90:4

So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom. Ps 90:12

Just in case someone did not know this already, the author of Ecclesiastes is giving a testimony about how he thought about things when he was searching for meaning in life. His perceptions were that ...He might live a thousand years twice over but still not find contentment. And since he must die like everyone else—well, what’s the use? ? Eccl 6:6 ... This does not mean that everyone's spirit goes to the same place, but that all share the same fate of death and he really does not know what happens to them only that he has a perception that they have no thoughts in the grave and they can't praise God any more. These verses have been taken to teach doctrine about the after life but they are coming from the man who is venting about vanity of life and not from God telling us how things are in the afterlife. They are a man's perception. They must be understood in this way. We know from other scriptures that there is a place called paradise and a place called hell and not all go to the same place when they die. Many verses in Ecclesiastes and in Job are statements from frustrated men who are venting about things they do not understand.

 

[Blain]

Your testimony is not important to me, I stand with the apostle Paul when I say that Jesus Christ and Him crucified is MY testimony,
1 Cor. 2:2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

It was not a testimony it was me owning to up that I may have been wrong and explaining why for one who says I am immature in discernment you didn't seem to discern my post

 

[GraceAndTruth]

It was not a testimony it was me owning to up that I may have been wrong and explaining why for one who says I am immature in discernment you didn't seem to discern my post

Please....LOOK at your own web site....it says "blains testimony"
I called this exchange before in another reply to you: inanity
I call it now: OVER