Speculation for a seemingly biblical contradiction

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Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#81
Please....LOOK at your own web site....it says "blains testimony"
I called this exchange before in another reply to you: inanity
I call it now: OVER
I thought you were saying my post was a testimony and as for my testimony if it is not important to you then that is fine that was never the purpose of it the purpose was to show how someone can go through so much yet in Christ be rescued the purpose is to help those who have also known great suffering in their lives
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#82
The understanding being that they are all in a spiritual realm we call heaven only because we don't know what else to call it and God has not explained it all yet.
God has not left us to wonder about Heaven (which also includes the New Jerusalem and Paradise). It is not merely a *spiritual realm* as you mistakenly suggest. It is actually another region, which is beyond space, and is in fact called "the third heaven". But it is tangible.

Also the Bible clearly tells us that Elijah went to Heaven, although it is implied in the case of Enoch. If God "took him" where else would he take him except to Heaven?
And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into Heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal... And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold,there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into Heaven. (2 Kings 2:1,11).

There are some today who claim to be Christians yet vehemently deny that Heaven is the eternal home of the saints. And now some speak of it as a "spiritual realm" when it is far more than merely a spiritual realm. Within Heaven is an actual heavenly city -- the New Jerusalem -- whose Builder and Maker is God. It is a unique city in that it is actually a cube which is 1500 cubic miles!

And it is within this city that we see (1) God, (2) Christ, (3) all the heavenly host of angels, (4) all the OT saints, (5) all the NT saints who have passed on, (6) the Heavenly Sanctuary, and (7) the blood of Christ sprinkled on the Mercy Seat (Hebrews 12:22-24). God's throne, and Christ's throne are also found therein, as well as the Cherubim, the Seraphim, and the 24 elders, and Paradise. Also the Ark of the Covenant (which was on earth) is now in Heaven. Jesus that that this is His Father's "house" and within it are many mansions prepared for the saints of God (John 14:1-3).
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,504
2,711
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#83
Please....LOOK at your own web site....it says "blains testimony"
I called this exchange before in another reply to you: inanity
I call it now: OVER
Regardless I don't know what your beef is with me but I am not going to argue any further with you
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#84
I think you add too much commentary to the scripture to weave a narrative that is not necessary about an ascension before the ascension.
They did hold his feet at the morning of the resurrection and their is no space of time for this ascension that could have happened before the holding of the feet. I think you are trying to hard on that one. It is not a natural hermeneutic and should scream "probably not what John was meaning" But I can understand why people are confused.

As to Hebrew 9 just read it in it entirety and you see that the offering of himself fulfilled these requirements especially summarizing it with the final statement...
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
He is contrasting the inefficacy of the blood of bulls and goats with the blood of Christ.
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

His sacrifice on the cross is when his blood was shed. At that time it was accepted. He ascended into heaven and appears before God for us but I see no record of him bleeding again in heaven. That which was done on the cross is what Heb 9 is referring to. People have imagined more than what is being said in Heb 9. Contrasting what they did in the tabernacle and trying to imagine an exact repeat of it in heaven after the cross is not what Heb 9 is saying that is what others are trying to make it say. The cross was the blood that was offered not another additional sprinkling after the ascension. That is made up in peoples minds, not mentioned in this text and not intended. One shedding of blood. ONCE. Not twice. People attempt to say Heb 9 says that Jesus had to spread his blood on the mercy seat in heaven, etc... but just read the text and you see it does not say all that.


6Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
O.K. We've both set forth our case. We'll have to just leave it at that. Thanks for the exchange and go well brother.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,896
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#85
OBSERVATION!

Don't ask questions here or propose answers for same! Doing so guarantees you a TROLL title with some alleged Christians.
Please know I am NOT laughing at you..... I am laughing WITH you over your frustrations with graceandtruth...lol! :giggle:

We’ve all been there! :giggle:
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#86
Deut 34:
5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.

Jude
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Rev 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Some of the most mysterious scriptures in the bible. I do not know the meaning. I can speculate like everyone else. It is possible that the war between Michael and Satan had something to Satan wanting to do something with Moses body that he was not allowed to do. Does it mean Moses body was preserved? When the war in heaven in Revelation is mentioned is it over the Body of Christ and the fact that these raptured saints did not have to die? I don't know. I am still waiting for more understanding.
Yeah it is mysterious. Connecting the war in heaven to the argument for Moses body makes me wonder if they are the same event. I thought about Moses' body preserved too. It doesn't seem fitting.

I think Satan just wanted Moses' body to return to dust. Satan accuses Moses of sin so....
It seems God hid Moses' tomb. Maybe the tomb would be empty? The full meaning of the empty tomb includes conquering death maybe.Idk.
Scribe, thank you for you response! Grace and Peace.
 

Robo36

Active member
Nov 27, 2019
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#87
At least you did not pass off your speculation as Bible interpretation. So here is the truth from Scripture:



1. Enoch was raptured to Heaven supernaturally, since he lived on earth. That is what "translated" means. This pre-figured the Rapture of the Church.



2. Elijah was clearly taken up to Heaven, since that is plainly stated in Scripture. This is beyond dispute.



3. John 3:13 has been misinterpreted by those who have no spiritual discernment. Jesus was speaking about Himself and His unique (1) descent from Heaven, (2) His anticipated ascent to Heaven, and (3) His presence in Heaven in Spirit even while was on earth. This verse applies strictly to Himself, and does not nullify the other Scriptures. The context itself shows that He is special in every sense.
In John 3:13, Jesus tells us the following: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13)

I agree Jesus was speaking about himself, I fail to recognize your omission of his original proposition “and no man” If Jesus was speaking only about himself, what does his recognition of other men have to do with only himself? “And no man hath ascended up to heaven.” Seems perfectly understandable to me he’s including “others” aside from himself. And the question “where did Enoch and Elijah go if not to heaven?” Seems perfectly valid and logical to me.

What is evil and trolling in your mind to “speculate” other worlds, other populated planets? I find it hard to speculate that God only created life on the planet earth, just because of the vastness of the universe with suns and planets as far as the human eye has been able to see.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,504
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#88
In John 3:13, Jesus tells us the following: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13)

I agree Jesus was speaking about himself, I fail to recognize your omission of his original proposition “and no man” If Jesus was speaking only about himself, what does his recognition of other men have to do with only himself? “And no man hath ascended up to heaven.” Seems perfectly understandable to me he’s including “others” aside from himself. And the question “where did Enoch and Elijah go if not to heaven?” Seems perfectly valid and logical to me.

What is evil and trolling in your mind to “speculate” other worlds, other populated planets? I find it hard to speculate that God only created life on the planet earth, just because of the vastness of the universe with suns and planets as far as the human eye has been able to see.
I used to think along the same lines I found it nearly impossible that in this vast universe with all the planets in it that we would be the only intelligent beings and like I said scientifically it is impossible but the problem with this line of thinking is that it distracts us from the truth and it is easy to to allow your mind to try to connect such things with God.

While I am fascinated with anything having to do with outer space we were told in the bible to ponder on the truth and the things of heaven.
The enemy is crafty and when you are walking on the straight and narrow path he can use these kind of things to lead us on a path that seems right and safe to traverse but then it slowly and surely leads us off the path we were meant to walk.

In my study of bible prophecy I also studied conspiracy which this theory of yours is an actual one that exists but it is something that you cannot go to deep in because it is a slippery slope down the rabbit hole, you won't even realize the damage it does until it is difficult to crawl back out. Enoch and Elija were taken yes but it never said they were taken to heaven the bible describes a haven of sorts the bridal chamber otherwise known as Abrahams Bosom

Luke 16:22

King James Version

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
Anything to do with God is not of this world so planets are not where we are taken Honestly I would recommend you put this theory out of your mind speculation is fine but if it doesn't align with scripture it is the enemy trying to deceive us remember he can appear as an angel of light and will try to make things appear to safe and align with scripture but this is also why we need to become close to God and gain understanding with the word
 

Robo36

Active member
Nov 27, 2019
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#89
I did "have at it" already, though. The first thing I said to you was we should read God's word in full context and not cherry pick single-sentence verses out of the blue and scrutinize them alone on a pedestal. Sound familiar yet?



I also said God's word is without contradictions so the "seeming" contradictions that you want to entertain aren't there in real life. That's my point.
Where have I “cherry picked” the scriptures? Correct me if I’m wrong, but where are the scriptures I’m missing that solve the “seeming discrepancy/contradiction?

Jesus tells us the following: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven” (John 3:13)

Where did Enoch and Elijah go?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#90
If Jesus was speaking only about himself, what does his recognition of other men have to do with only himself?
No man -- other than Christ -- both descended from Heaven and then ascended back to Heaven.
 

Robo36

Active member
Nov 27, 2019
186
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#91
I used to think along the same lines I found it nearly impossible that in this vast universe with all the planets in it that we would be the only intelligent beings and like I said scientifically it is impossible but the problem with this line of thinking is that it distracts us from the truth and it is easy to to allow your mind to try to connect such things with God.
“Connecting” such things as the planets with God distracts from the truth?



While I am fascinated with anything having to do with outer space we were told in the bible to ponder on the truth and the things of heaven.

The enemy is crafty and when you are walking on the straight and narrow path he can use these kind of things to lead us on a path that seems right and safe to traverse but then it slowly and surely leads us off the path we were meant to walk.
I’m sorry but I’m failing to see the possibility of other worlds/populated planets, as a straying from a righteous path. You’ll have to define that warning further for me.



In my study of bible prophecy I also studied conspiracy which this theory of yours is an actual one that exists but it is something that you cannot go to deep in because it is a slippery slope down the rabbit hole, you won't even realize the damage it does until it is difficult to crawl back out. Enoch and Elija were taken yes but it never said they were taken to heaven the bible describes a haven of sorts the bridal chamber otherwise known as Abrahams Bosom



Luke 16:22



King James Version



22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:

Anything to do with God is not of this world so planets are not where we are taken Honestly I would recommend you put this theory out of your mind speculation is fine but if it doesn't align with scripture it is the enemy trying to deceive us remember he can appear as an angel of light and will try to make things appear to safe and align with scripture but this is also why we need to become close to God and gain understanding with the word
I’m not seeing your warning as valid, elaborate please.
 

Robo36

Active member
Nov 27, 2019
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#92
No man -- other than Christ -- both descended from Heaven and then ascended back to Heaven.
Then where did Enoch and Elijah go? Had they "descended" from heaven making them eligible to ascend back into heaven?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#93
“Connecting” such things as the planets with God distracts from the truth?





I’m sorry but I’m failing to see the possibility of other worlds/populated planets, as a straying from a righteous path. You’ll have to define that warning further for me.





I’m not seeing your warning as valid, elaborate please.
My point is is that if you consider these things to much then it distracts you from Jesus, now don't get me wrong even the wise men knew the birth of Jesus by knowing the sign of the star of david and God did say the sun and moon and stars were for signs and seasons but this all in the bible the going to other planets is not and trying to connect it to God in any way is how the enemy works.
Tell me since I gave the advice how much time have you spent with God? how much have you been talking with him and reading his word?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#94
Robo I am not trying to put you down I am trying to keep you from the path I have already been down it starts out seemingly harmless but when you go to far in then it becomes difficult to get back out
 

Robo36

Active member
Nov 27, 2019
186
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#95
Robo I am not trying to put you down I am trying to keep you from the path I have already been down it starts out seemingly harmless but when you go to far in then it becomes difficult to get back out
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made THE WORLDS.” Hebrews 1:1,2
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#96
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made THE WORLDS.” Hebrews 1:1,2
Yes he spoke everything into existance but where in scripture does it speak of him taking us to other planets?
 

Robo36

Active member
Nov 27, 2019
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#97
I have read the Bible from cover to cover and the NT completely twice. I freely admit I understood probably 1/3rd of it, maybe even less. I've listened to many a preacher and looked at many a Christian sect. Judging by the the arguments between them over scripture I've reasoned that I'm not near anyway a lonely confused soul baffled much by biblical scripture. Of course everybody that debates scripture believes he's right just like the political forums. I'm quickly learning this forum is little to no different. Thus I'll have to judge for myself with the help of prayer what is truth here,
 

Robo36

Active member
Nov 27, 2019
186
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#98
Yes he spoke everything into existance but where in scripture does it speak of him taking us to other planets?
Nowhere that I know of but Jesus has told us "no man" has ascended into heaven. I then dare to speculate where Enoch and Elijah actually went. I fail to see any evil in that speculation. I don't present my speculation as truth or scripture I simply present it as speculation. I'm open to other's speculation or scripture that denies my imagined possibilities.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,504
2,711
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#99
I have read the Bible from cover to cover and the NT completely twice. I freely admit I understood probably 1/3rd of it, maybe even less. I've listened to many a preacher and looked at many a Christian sect. Judging by the the arguments between them over scripture I've reasoned that I'm not near anyway a lonely confused soul baffled much by biblical scripture. Of course everybody that debates scripture believes he's right just like the political forums. I'm quickly learning this forum is little to no different. Thus I'll have to judge for myself with the help of prayer what is truth here,
Yes you are correct everyone debates and argues scripture and many think that posting scripture will prove their view right and yet no debate seems to be settled no understanding or learning is rarely gained this is because debates while they can be good if you have a learning heart can just turn into endless arguing and when this happens that debate has lost it's value.

To debate it requires understanding love and a calm spirit this is how you know if a person is debating with the spirit and not simply prove themselves right. The scriptures do not contradict themselves it is our perception and lack of understanding that make it appear this way, the bible is like a giant spiderweb every verse connects to another in some way or form
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,504
2,711
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Nowhere that I know of but Jesus has told us "no man" has ascended into heaven. I then dare to speculate where Enoch and Elijah actually went. I fail to see any evil in that speculation. I don't present my speculation as truth or scripture I simply present it as speculation. I'm open to other's speculation or scripture that denies my imagined possibilities.
And I already told you the place of safe keeping or holding the bridal chamber Abrahams bosom, I am not saying what your doing is evil I am saying that it can lead you into a path that distracts you from God. You said you wanted to gain understanding you wanted to be able to hear the spirits voice I among several others here have given you sound advice but it does no good if you refuse to listen. You defend your reasons for this theory but do not heed my advice again I have been down this path before so that is why I am trying to help you but if you do not want to heed my advice then I will not bother you anymore I know you do understand and I know you are struggling as a Christian so that is why I have wanted to help guide you

But again if you refuse to listen there is nothing I can do