Spiritual gifts DEAD after 200 A.D.? What about these verses, cessationists?

[fighterace0]

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
~1 Corinthians 13:9-12

So what exactly is "perfect"?
When is "now" and when is "then"?

 

[feedm3]

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."
~1 Corinthians 13:9-12

So what exactly is "perfect"?
When is "now" and when is "then"?

Here is a link to page 1 explaining these quesitons:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-d-what-about-these-verses-cessationists.html

See post #13

 

[peterT]

Okay.


Yup, ceasing of miraculous gifts does not mean dead faith. It means a temporary power given to man, has ceased.

“Believing I Cor 13:10 is not dead faith. In fact is true faith”.


Yes the miraculous gifts have ceased - I Cor 13:10

Are you sure you have the right scripture here? because they still had the gifs way after Jesus was come on gone.

1 Corinthians13:10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


I can’t help thing your faith is falling short, if faith comes by hearing the word.

Is that all that you’ve got?

..
http://christianchat.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4697&stc=1&d=1355025410

 

[GreenNnice]

"...but then face to face."

These words really cause dissension for a loop, it's talking of a concrete meeting, isn't it?

Some
A) think 'face to face' means the wholeness of Scripture.
B)think 'face to face' means the fullness of Christ's coming again (which I agree with).

And, what shall be "known"? What is in part now, should be known. Scripture is a choice, except that 'face to face,' it comes back to git ya, doesn't it. We have THE CONCRETE meeting the abstract thought. KaBOOM!!

"But when the perfect comes....."

Another toughie, what is 'the perfect comes.'

Is Scripture specifically in the bible described as 'the perfect?'

Does it even make sense even it Scripture is ever described as perfet in this context.

The Word was made flesh, John 1:1 says.

I think the verse that really tells all is that one that others are talkign about now, in it is understanding, clear understanding but it's obviously not so clear or we wouldn't have 2 different views, or 3 or 4.

What gits me most ! This is talking about 'love' and then switches to gifts of the Spirit then the power of love in giving possessions away. Then the wonderful Love is patient , love is kind...' famousness.

To me, this ALL speaks of Heaven, that is my, conclusion tonight, the Lord leads, but what will we be doing mostly in Heaven? Worshipping Christ, right?

What use will we have of knowledge in Heaven? We will be praising God .
Nothing partial about that, and, we sure better be loving each other.
This seems tyhe power in these verses of 1 corinthians 13

 

[superdave5221]

1. The bible implicitly states that the sign gifts were for the establishment of the church era. Eph. 2:19-20; 2 Cor. 12:12; Heb. 2:3-4; 1 Cor. 13:8-10.

2. It is true that cessation of sign gifts is never explicitly stated but it is also true that it is never explicitly stated that the Scripture is complete, and if fact, if sign gifts have not ceased, then the Scripture canon is still open, undermining our confidence that we have God's complete revelation, and opening the door for additions by false prophets who have not been properly proven through signs and miracles.

It might , indeed, be a priori conceivable that God should deal with men [individually], and reveal Himself and His will to each individual, throughout the whole course of history, in the [depths] of his own consciousness. This is the mystics dream. It has not, however, been God's way. He has chosen, rather to deal with the race in it's entirety, and to give this race His complete revelation of Himself in an organic whole. .....B.B.Warfield

3. History has convincingly suggested that supernatural sign gifts have ceased. We do not see evidence of confirmed prophets after the death of the last apostle. Only fringe groups have claimed that God still speaks through prophets, tongues, ect. until the charismatic movement began in the 20th century.

"This whole place [1 Cor 12 on spiritual gifts] is very obscure..... but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur, but now no longer take place." John Chrysostom (347-407)

"In the earliest time, the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spoke with tongues which they had not learned 'as the Spirit gave them utterance' These were signs adapted to the time. For it was proper for the Holy Spirit to evidence Himself in all tongues, and to show that the gospel of God had come to all tongues [languages] over the whole earth. The thing was done for a authentication and it passed away". St. Augustine (354-430).

 

[peterT]

How have sign gifts ceased.

How are the gifs dead, if the two end time prophets have gifs (future)

Rv11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

And when it says
10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Jesus was come AND gone and 40 years later they still had the gifs.
This verse is talking about when Jesus comes in the last days, then that which is in part shall be done away.

There is No scripture saying that the gifs are dead and God has finished speaking

If faith comes by hearing the word, how is it that you have faith to say the gifs and signs are dead because it’s not in the word.

Dose this come under Rejoicing in iniquity, or rejoicing in the truth.

6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

We say we are not interested in the doctrines of men and man’s opinion, but it seems to me that most of us are more interested in the doctrines of men and man’s opinion, than what we hear from the word.

Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Ephesians 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

And why would Jesus and the Bible say, believeth all things, hopeth all things, and nothing shall be impossible unto you, and If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

And if God has nothing more to say that’s not already written, why would he say out of your treasure things new and old.

Matthew 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Maybe God would like to say something about this verse in the future
Seeing that he likes to seal up things to the time of the end

Revelation 10:4, And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

Come-on let’s build are faith on what the bible says not on what we cannot see in the past in mans history.

I understand it’s mostly phoneys and fakes out there saying they do sign and have gifts, so I understand your reluctance to believe, but nevertheless God is not dead and God has not finished by a long shot.

 

[GreenNnice]

Well said, petey, well-balanced thought.
Agreed. Cessassionists don't really have to many Scripture passages (one?) to buttress their views of spiritual gifts ceased after 200 a.d.
The one set of verses they have seems very sketchy and incomplete; the completion of revelation book by John, indeed, FINISHED things in bible.
(Or, did you want John to explain how we will live, 'incorruptible,' on new earth?)
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The manifestions gifts, I think, one thing that stops cessationists from believing is that people who have healed others are 'in' more with God. No! Quite the opposite even. God shows people salvation, not just those healed but the healer, too, I think, and, sometimes the person with the gift doesn't even realize that God is 'working' through them, just like He 'created' us for, per Ephesians 2:10 .

God reaches people however He 'ways' appropriate, just, for those who need to stick their 'doubting' hand in Jesus' side, the way is curded, God is FAITHFUL, those who seek Him but have not acfepted Him, God fhooses many ways to reach them, for the 'common good.' , which 'profit' all, and, think on those words, 'profit all.' Isn't 'profit' knowing God more, and, even for all, a witness unto salvation?
Do you, therefore, need spiritual gifts given you or is your FAITH IN CHRIST already SEEN from His working in your life ?
----------------
So, God's using of the gifts did NOT ever stop because people's need for salvation has never stopped. God is doing things the same today as yesterday as forevermore.
-------()-------
One idea said I wanted to make one wary of, we do NOT kjow God's ways, nor thoughts, Scripture states, so, to say their are a lot of phony healings going on is dangerous territory, and, COULD be taking away glory to God in the highest. Assume His work is good, effective, having been done in men, like Hinn (I've been to Tacoma Dome, where 100s went on stage, amazing procession! Do I believe people healed? i believe in God's all-circumferencing power) , like Swaggart, like WHOEVER, because God makes good what Satan intends evil, just like Jesus dying on the cross was Satan's GOAL but God's PLAN all along
------------------------
From Clarke's commentary:
The manifestation of the Spirit - Φανερωσις του Πνευματος. This is variably understood by the fathers; some of them rendering φανερωσις by illumination, others demonstration, and others operation. The apostle's meaning seems to be this: Whatever gifts God has bestowed, or in what various ways soever the Spirit of God may have manifested himself, it is all for the common benefit of the Church. God has given no gift to any man for his own private advantage, or exclusive profit. He has it for the benefit of others as well as for his own salvation.

 

[megaman125]

One idea said I wanted to make one wary of, we do NOT kjow God's ways, nor thoughts, Scripture states, so, to say their are a lot of phony healings going on is dangerous territory, and, COULD be taking away glory to God in the highest. Assume His work is good, effective, having been done in men,

I have a passage that goes along with this.

John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us. For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ will by no means lose his reward.
Mark 9:38-41

 

[GreenNnice]

I have a passage that goes along with this.

John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. For the one who is not against us is for us. For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ will by no means lose his reward.
Mark 9:38-41

Mega, God bless your work for Him

 

[iamsoandso]

"...but then face to face."

These words really cause dissension for a loop, it's talking of a concrete meeting, isn't it?

Some
A) think 'face to face' means the wholeness of Scripture.
B)think 'face to face' means the fullness of Christ's coming again (which I agree with).

And, what shall be "known"? What is in part now, should be known. Scripture is a choice, except that 'face to face,' it comes back to git ya, doesn't it. We have THE CONCRETE meeting the abstract thought. KaBOOM!!

"But when the perfect comes....."

Another toughie, what is 'the perfect comes.'

Is Scripture specifically in the bible described as 'the perfect?'

Does it even make sense even it Scripture is ever described as perfet in this context.

The Word was made flesh, John 1:1 says.

I think the verse that really tells all is that one that others are talkign about now, in it is understanding, clear understanding but it's obviously not so clear or we wouldn't have 2 different views, or 3 or 4.

What gits me most ! This is talking about 'love' and then switches to gifts of the Spirit then the power of love in giving possessions away. Then the wonderful Love is patient , love is kind...' famousness.

To me, this ALL speaks of Heaven, that is my, conclusion tonight, the Lord leads, but what will we be doing mostly in Heaven? Worshipping Christ, right?

What use will we have of knowledge in Heaven? We will be praising God .
Nothing partial about that, and, we sure better be loving each other.
This seems tyhe power in these verses of 1 corinthians 13

,,,,love, when we set face to face,,when Patience,and the scratching of our own heads has been,when we leave off of the pondering and the love that "is god in us",,,has us set again face to face. not me and you,all of us,i bickered with them all,before perfect came,,,i was ashamed when i saw god was love and he dwelt in me.(i speak of my own self,the struggle in my mind when i was young),i had to find that the lord was the lord of (host) and that i was the (host) the lord dwelt in when perfect comes.i saw that perfect was not me,but i agreed with perfect."when perfect comes",,this is a beautiful thought i see you all thinking,satin cannot think it thru only these with hearts. i should have not interrupted,forgive me.love is when perfect comes,the kiss of the father.if the father was not in us we would not posses the gifts,the father possesses the gifts.you all are asking for all of it,not little pieces "when perfect comes",love a beautiful thing,,,ask it you see to dance in the house of the father to seek him in the host.

 

[DavidTree]

feedm3 is correct in that the word 'perfect' means "complete, full of age, mature"; however, it is not talking about the canon of scripture. The phrase "that which is perfect" in verse 10 has to be interpreted in view of verses 8-12. It is talking about "mature understanding" - and the point in time when it reaches its "full maturity" - "which just happens to be" at the second coming of Christ. It is not talking about Christ Himself.

Verses 9-12 are an "aside" to verse 8 - and have nothing whatsoever [directly] to do with "spiritual gifts" - and it is [highly] focused on the understanding we have 'now' versus 'then':

The phrase 'we know in part' in verse 9 is referring to what we now know ('understand') by "experience"...

The phrase 'we prophesy in part' in verse 9 is referring to what we now know ('understand') by "faith"...

Verse 10:

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

(At this point you should keep in mind that both 'we know' and 'we prophesy' are "in part"...)

'when that which is perfect is come' => "when we have 'full' and 'complete' understanding"

'that which is in part shall be done away' => "there will be no need of [the other]"

Verse 11 is an illustration about "full [mature] understanding" (and should be fairly self-explanatory).

Verse 12:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

The word 'glass' in this verse is not referring to "window pane glass", but rather, a mirror.

For reference:

For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: ~ James 1:23

The first part of verse 12 is comparing "a dimly seen reflection" (a [not-so-clearly-seen] face in a mirror) to "the real thing" (actual 'face to face' - very clearly seen).

'For now we see through a glass, darkly' => "for now, we can only see a dim reflection"

'but then face to face' => "but then, we will be able to truly understand"

'now I know in part' => "now I have a 'limited' understanding"

'but then shall I know even as also I am known' => "then I will have a 'full', 'complete', and 'clear' understanding"

Now - for a moment - go back to verse 8:

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."

'whether there be prophecies, they shall fail'

This is not talking about "prophecy not coming true" - but rather, that [prophecy itself] will "go away" because it will be no longer needed (or meaningful) - then.

'whether there be tongues, they shall cease'

In like fashion - "tongues" will "go away" because it will be no longer needed (or meaningful) - then.

'whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away'

In like fashion - "the present knowledge" will "go away" because it will be no longer needed (or meaningful) - then.

Love (Charity), however, will continue 'forever'...

(while [the current / present] 'prophecies', 'tongues', and 'knowledge' will not)

Now - go to verse 13:

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

The word 'abideth' in this verse means "to remain" or "to endure"...

This verse is saying, in part, that 'faith', 'hope', and 'charity' are the [current / present] things that "remain and endure"- even until then.

This whole passage (chapter 13) is saying - in effect:

"Keep your focus on Love (Charity) - because it is what will endure ([the other stuff] will not) - and without it [the other stuff] is essentially meaningless - and it is the greatest thing (in all of this) that you should strive for, above all else - because it exists / operates / works { and endures } above all else."



.

verse 8 is directly part of verses 9-12
Chapters 12, 13 and 14 are permanently connect as One Complete Directive/Understanding/Order.

 

[Edify]

verse 8 is directly part of verses 9-12
Chapters 12, 13 and 14 are permanently connect as One Complete Directive/Understanding/Order.

No doubt you believe in raising the dead by raising this old op, LOL!!

 

[DavidTree]

No doubt you believe in raising the dead by raising this old op, LOL!!

Yeah, i did not take notice of the date.............lol

 

[Diakonos]

What is 'perfect to come?

Contextually, it refers to the complete state of knowledge when there is no more need for prophecy because all prophecy will be fulfilled when we "see [God] face to face" and "know [Him] as we are fully known".

“We know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the complete arrives, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.” (1 Corinthians 13:8–12)​

“The testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift (charismati), awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,” (1 Corinthians 1:6–7)

The (charismatic) gifts remain at least until "the revelation of our Lord".